Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Fervent]

I looked up Laurent A. Cleenewerck and I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc.

Be kind of strange for the Greek Orthodox church to place him as editor of their English translation if he didn't have a pretty solid handle on the language, considering koine Greek is a major part of their liturgy.

 

[ozso]

"Infernalism"
"UR-tes" did DA mistype UR-ites?
David Bentley Hart is who is being argued about?
I gotta keep up with terms.
William Barclay is a big theologian who was an admitted Universalist.

I guess the following rule doesn't apply to him:

Flaming and Goading
Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF, or use nicknames to do so.

 

[ozso]

Be kind of strange for the Greek Orthodox church to place him as editor of their English translation if he didn't have a pretty solid handle on the language, considering koine Greek is a major part of their liturgy.

That doesn't change the fact that I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc.

 

[Fervent]

That doesn't change the fact that I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc.

Sure, but what's the point of your observation? The position he's in kind of speaks to his expertise, unless you think he somehow snowed the Greek Orthodox who are pretty much universally well acquainted with the language in question.

 

[ozso]

Sure, but what's the point of your observation? The position he's in kind of speaks to his expertise, unless you think he somehow snowed the Greek Orthodox who are pretty much universally well acquainted with the language in question.

That's your conjecture, not mine.

 

[Fervent]

That's your conjecture, not mine.

There's no conjecture involved, simply a question of what point you are trying to make in your observation.

 

[Der Alte]

deleted

 

[Der Alte]

deleted

 

[Der Alte]

***

I guess the following rule doesn't apply to him: Flaming and Goading Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF, or use nicknames to do so

And you are not guilty of doing exactly what you are accusing me of? Are you aware that it is a rules violation to have critical side conversations about specific posters? As you did in this post? "Address only the content of the post and not the poster." That includes "groups of members." See your own quoted post, above.
Do you consider "Universal Reconciliation" to be a personal attack?
Do you consider it insulting, belittling, mocking, ridiculing or a pejorative nickname? If not why do you consider UR to be such? UR refers to the belief. The addition of "-ite" makes it refer to believers in UR vice the belief itself. I don't want to type the two words every time I reference it. What do you think might be a reasonable abbreviation?

 

[ozso]

There's no conjecture involved, simply a question of what point you are trying to make in your observation.

I looked up Laurent A. Cleenewerck and I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc. I have nothing to add to that at this time.

 

[Fervent]

I looked up Laurent A. Cleenewerck and I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc. I have nothing to add to that at this time.

So...a completely pointless statement? What is that observation supposed to add to the discussion?

 

[Justin BT]

I looked up Laurent A. Cleenewerck and I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc. I have nothing to add to that at this time.

I don't understand how this fits in? Are you asserting that only academics can be comfortable with and competent in multiple languages?

 

[ozso]

So...a completely pointless statement? What is that observation supposed to add to the discussion?

I don't understand how this fits in? Are you asserting that only academics can be comfortable with and competent in multiple languages?

Der Alte wrote:

I tried to check DBH's resume, 4 different websites... No mention of qualifications is Greek.

A little later Der Alte also wrote:

...ματθαιον 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.

To which I wrote:

I looked up Laurent A. Cleenewerck and I didn't see anything in his credentials or bio that said he is fluent in Greek or a Greek scholar or an expert in linguistics etc.

Der Alte pointed out that he checked David Bentley Hart's resume, and found no mention of qualifications in Greek.

And I pointed out that I checked Laurent A. Cleenewerck's resume, and found no mention of qualifications in Greek.

End of story.

 

[Hmm]

I don't understand how this fits in? Are you asserting that only academics can be comfortable with and competent in multiple languages?

Many people are multi-lingual but only qualified academics are competent to comment authoritatively on a piece of ancient text, clearly.

Whether DBH himself is a specialist in ancient Greek or not is irrelevant. As part of the academic community he has easy access to colleagues who are and furthermore his published works are peer-reviewed so any factual mistakes are picked up. Of course, his interpretation and conclusions are his own. What he says makes a lot of sense to me but may not to others but it's silly of anyone to feel they have to try to discredit the credentials of someone of his stature before they can disagree with him.

Universalism doesn't rely exclusively or even mainly on linguistic arguments like this anyway but it's interesting that this is the main form of attack on it that we've seen so far in this thread. Its ideas are seldom attacked and that's probably because it's very hard to attack the idea of universal restoration which so much of scripture attests to.

 

[ozso]

Just for the record,

"And these will go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age." Matthew 25:46

The New Testament by David Bentley Hart

 

[Andrewn]

I too have trained at the graduate level and I have heard the names of many renowned scholars, read some and bought their books. But I have never heard of DBH until I read it in this forum. Maybe he is only "world renowned" in the world of UR-ism.

Because David Bentley Hart has been mentioned so much, I'll just quote a passage about his academic career:

"Hart earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Maryland, his Master of Philosophy degree from the University of Cambridge, and his Master of Arts and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the University of Virginia.[3] He has taught at the University of Virginia, the University of St. Thomas (Minnesota), Duke Divinity School, and Loyola College in Maryland. He served as visiting professor at Providence College, where he also previously held the Robert J. Randall Chair in Christian Culture. During the 2014–2015 academic year, Hart was Danforth Chair at Saint Louis University in the Department of Theological Studies. In 2015, he was appointed as Templeton Fellow at the University of Notre Dame Institute for Advanced Study.[4]"

David Bentley Hart - Wikipedia

And this is a list of his books that are available at Amazon:

Amazon.com : david bentley hart

 

[Andrewn]

I assume you mis-wrote the opening line, as "kolasis" occurs 14 times in the LXX, 6 in Ezekiel.

You're welcome to quote the other 8 verses.

it doesn't speak to how it's used in Matt. 25.

This is an assumption.

 

[Fervent]

You're welcome to quote the other 8 verses.

2Mac. 4:38 καὶ πυρωθεὶς τοῖς θυμοῖς παραχρῆμα τὴν τοῦ Ἀνδρονίκου πορφύραν περιελόμενος καὶ τοὺς χιτῶνας περιρρήξας περιαγαγὼν καθ᾿ ὅλην τὴν πόλιν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν τὸν τόπον, οὗπερ τὸν Ονιαν ἠσέβησεν, ἐκεῖ τὸν μιαιφόνον ἀπεκόσμησεν τοῦ κυρίου τὴν ἀξίαν αὐτῷ κόλασιν ἀποδόντος.

3Mac. 1:3 τοῦτον δὲ διαγαγὼν Δοσίθεος ὁ Δριμύλου λεγόμενος, τὸ γένος Ιουδαῖος, ὕστερον δὲ μεταβαλὼν τὰ νόμιμα καὶ τῶν πατρίων δογμάτων ἀπηλλοτριωμένος, ἄσημόν τινα κατέκλινεν ἐν τῇ σκηνῇ, ὃν συνέβη κομίσασθαι τὴν ἐκείνου κόλασιν.

3Mac. 7:10 Λαβόντες δὲ τὴν ἐπιστολὴν ταύτην οὐκ ἐσπούδασαν εὐθέως γενέσθαι περὶ τὴν ἄφοδον, ἀλλὰ τὸν βασιλέα προσηξίωσαν τοὺς ἐκ τοῦ γένους τῶν Ιουδαίων τὸν ἅγιον θεὸν αὐθαιρέτως παραβεβηκότας καὶ τοῦ θεοῦ τὸν νόμον τυχεῖν δι᾿ αὐτῶν τῆς ὀφειλομένης κολάσεως

4Mac. 8:9 ἐπεί, ἐὰν ὀργίλως με διάθησθε διὰ τῆς ἀπειθείας, ἀναγκάσετέ με ἐπὶ δειναῖς κολάσεσιν ἕνα ἕκαστον ὑμῶν διὰ τῶν βασάνων ἀπολέσαι.

Wis. 11:13 ὅτε γὰρ ἤκουσαν διὰ τῶν ἰδίων κολάσεων
εὐεργετημένους αὐτούς, ᾔσθοντο τοῦ κυρίου.


Wis. 16:2 ἀνθ᾿ ἧς κολάσεως εὐεργετήσας τὸν λαόν σου
εἰς ἐπιθυμίαν ὀρέξεως ξένην γεῦσιν
τροφὴν ἡτοίμασας ὀρτυγομήτραν,


Wis. 16:24 Ἡ γὰρ κτίσις σοὶ τῷ ποιήσαντι ὑπηρετοῦσα
ἐπιτείνεται εἰς κόλασιν κατὰ τῶν ἀδίκων
καὶ ἀνίεται εἰς εὐεργεσίαν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἐπὶ σοὶ πεποιθότων.


Wis. 19:4 εἷλκεν γὰρ αὐτοὺς ἡ ἀξία ἐπὶ τοῦτο τὸ πέρας ἀνάγκη
καὶ τῶν συμβεβηκότων ἀμνηστίαν ἐνέβαλεν,
ἵνα τὴν λείπουσαν ταῖς βασάνοις προσαναπληρώσωσιν κόλασιν,


Jer. 18:20 εἰ ἀνταποδίδοται ἀντὶ ἀγαθῶν κακά; ὅτι συνελάλησαν ῥήματα κατὰ τῆς ψυχῆς μου καὶ τὴν κόλασιν αὐτῶν ἔκρυψάν μοι· μνήσθητι ἑστηκότος μου κατὰ πρόσωπόν σου τοῦ λαλῆσαι ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ἀγαθὰ τοῦ ἀποστρέψαι τὸν θυμόν σου ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν.

This is an assumption.

No, it's not an assumption it's an assessment of the different contexts. Ezekiel's usage is peculiar for both the typical use as seen in lexical entries and comparitively so it would have to be established that Matt. 25 is using it in this same peculiar fashion. It would either have to be demonstrated that this peculiar usage were typical for Greek speaking Jews or that Matthew's context is the same as Ezekiel's, otherwise the entries simply add to the semantic range without speaking to the question at hand.

 

[Der Alte]

***

And I pointed out that I checked Laurent A. Cleenewerck's resume, and found no mention of qualifications in Greek. End of story

Funny that you should do this and say this. You didn't look close enough. Cleenewerck was editor NOT one of the translators of the EOB

***

Whether DBH himself is a specialist in ancient Greek or not is irrelevant. As part of the academic community he has easy access to colleagues who are and furthermore his published works are peer-reviewed so any factual mistakes are picked up.

Only if reviewed by scholars who are not UR. If DBH is relying on the writing of others he should ID his sources.

Of course, his interpretation and conclusions are his own.

And therein is the problem. How is the unsuspecting reader to know what is his opinion what is genuine scholarship?

What he says makes a lot of sense to me but may not to others but it's silly of anyone to feel they have to try to discredit the credentials of someone of his stature before they can disagree with him.

So if it makes sense to you then it must be right? Isn't trying to discredit the credentials of Cleenewerck exactly what you tried to do in the first quote above? Mr Pot meet Mr. Kettle.

 

[Der Alte]

Because David Bentley Hart has been mentioned so much, I'll just quote a passage about his academic career:
"Hart earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Maryland, his Master of Philosophy degree from the University of Cambridge, and his Master of Arts and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the University of Virginia.[3] He has taught at the University of Virginia, the University of St. Thomas (Minnesota), Duke Divinity School, and Loyola College in Maryland. He served as visiting professor at Providence College, where he also previously held the Robert J. Randall Chair in Christian Culture. During the 2014–2015 academic year, Hart was Danforth Chair at Saint Louis University in the Department of Theological Studies. In 2015, he was appointed as Templeton Fellow at the University of Notre Dame Institute for Advanced Study.[4]"
David Bentley Hart - Wikipedia
And this is a list of his books that are available at Amazon:
Amazon.com : david bentley hart

Nothing to suggest that anyone should prefer his "translation" of the Greek NT over BDAG the premier NT Greek lexicon currently available as he is being touted by the UR-ites in this forum.