Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

Okay. But in any case appealing to a recognised authority about the meaning of an ancient word is not a "logical fallacy". What else are we supposed to do?

Appeal to authority means claiming so-in-so saying something is proof positive of the position you're maintaining. Claiming appeal to authority outside of that is the "appeal to authority fallacy" fallacy.

 

[ozso]

For example saying David Bentley Hart who's an EO PhD theologian, being a UR proponent, lends it credibility, is not really an appeal to authority fallacy. Whereas saying Hart being a UR proponent, proves UR is true, is an appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[Hmm]

For example saying David Bentley Hart who's an EO PhD theologian, being a UR proponent, lends it credibility, is not really an appeal to authority fallacy. Whereas saying Hart being a UR proponent, proves UR is true, is an appeal to authority fallacy.

Thanks, good explanation, and that makes sense.

@Fervent misunderstood me then if he thought I was claiming DeRose had "proved" UR. I think no such thing. Proof doesn't even make sense in the context of theology (or even in science, only in maths (my field)).I believe the evidence for UR is overwhelmingly conclusive but not proved.

 

[ozso]

Thanks, good explanation, and that makes sense.

@Fervent misunderstood me then if he thought I was claiming DeRose had "proved" UR. I think no such thing. Proof doesn't even make sense in the context of theology (or even in science, only in maths (my field)).I believe the evidence for UR is overwhelmingly conclusive but not proved.

The fact that I agree with you, proves that you're right.

 

[Hmm]

The fact that I agree with you, proves that you're right.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule!

 

[ozso]

Thanks, good explanation, and that makes sense.

@Fervent misunderstood me then if he thought I was claiming DeRose had "proved" UR. I think no such thing. Proof doesn't even make sense in the context of theology (or even in science, only in maths (my field)).I believe the evidence for UR is overwhelmingly conclusive but not proved.

Refutes I've seen made against DeRose have been ad hominem because they attack DeRose's background, rather what he's saying.

 

[Hmm]

The fact that I agree with you, proves that you're right.

As well as scriptual evidence for UR, there's also personal evidence and this what we find most persuasive anyway. I mentioned along with @Lazarus Short that I came to Christianity from atheism. This was because of my personal experience of God which I found made the most sense within the framework of Christian. We came in for some criticism for having been atheists but I am very thankful for it. My experience of God was of a loving and saving God and uncontaminated by the conception of God as Eternal Tormenter, which is why I was able to reject ECT and Annihilationism and embrace universal reconciliation so easily and without trauma I guess.

 

[ozso]

As well as scriptual evidence for UR, there's also personal evidence and this what we find most persuasive anyway. I mentioned along with @Lazarus Short that I came to Christianity from atheism. This was because of my personal experience of God which I found made the most sense within the framework of Christian. We came in for some criticism for having been atheists but I am very thankful for it. My experience of God was of a loving and saving God and uncontaminated by the conception of God as Eternal Tormenter, which is why I was able to reject ECT and Annihilationism and embrace universal reconciliation so easily and without trauma I guess.

I wonder if they would apply the same criticism to the fellow in my avatar.

 

[Hmm]

I wonder if they would apply the same criticism to the fellow in my avatar.

C.S. Lewis right? No doubt Team Hell will condemn him for having once being an atheist, little realising that every baby is an atheist, holding no fixed opinions on whether the fundamental reality of the universe is matter or is mind-like in some ways. At least, not any baby I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.

 

[ozso]

C.S. Lewis right? No doubt Team Hell will condemn him for having once being an atheist, little realising that every baby is an atheist, holding no fixed opinions on whether the fundamental reality of the universe is matter or is mind-like in some ways. At least, not any baby I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.

I suppose "I've always been a Christian" is another ego thing. Personally I figure God started me off early out of mercy for the fact of how much more wretched I would have been.

 

[Hmm]

I suppose "I've always been a Christian" is another ego thing.

Agreed. It's "my" belief and, as we often hear her, "my" study.

I suppose "I've always been a Christian" is another ego thing. Personally I figure God started me off early out of mercy for the fact of how much more wretched I would have been.

Yes, I'm not saying it's necessarily better to have been an atheist first but I'd rather that than indoctrination in ECT or double predestination. I've read too many accounts of the trauma this has caused.

I think it's important to realise that these concepts do not from any part of the Nicene creed despite the impression you get from threads like these that they are core beliefs.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You said............
"The paganisation of Christian doctrine for which hell has been a bulwark has entrenched a dualism and an image of God's power as primarily destructive and terrifying. "

Right here is the perfect example of the error of the "Hell No" crowd.

God however said Luke 16:22-24 .....
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

So again we are challenged to accepted YOUR opinion, (or someone Blog) or the word of God!

Why don't you try a thought experiment Major - self-immolate and see if a little water on the tongue eases the pain.

Didn't think so. Because the fire that Richie is experiencing as torment is in reality his resistant mindset to God's purifying burning love, his refusal to give it up and submit to the divine power. Don't be the Richie, Major, that's the message, else you be stymied by the unbridgable chasm and have to suffer in your own mind-made manacles until the judgment.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Please show me from scripture where Jesus specifically condemned the "paganized" Jewish belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which existed in Israel before and during the time of Jesus.

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jer 32:35)

There's some of the origins of your paganised Jewish belief in Gehenna, which God specifically eschews. What a brutal irony it is that infernocrats now saddle God with condemning sinners to Gehenna for everlasting punishment.

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. (Matt 10:31)

This is where Jesus teaches us that we have to wait in line while God destroys body and soul of the fowls of the air in Gehenna.

All your citations from the Rabbinic tradition are heretical. Why not cite the Talmud where they have Jesus burning in boiling excrement?

Do try to rejoice in Christ once in a while, der Alte.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, I'm not saying it's necessarily better to have been an atheist first but I'd rather that than indoctrination in ECT or double predestination.

Predestination is a hallmark of UR, is it not? As in all souls are predestined to ultimately return to God through Christ.

 

[ozso]

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jer 32:35)

There's some of the origins of your paganised Jewish belief in Gehenna, which God specifically eschews. What a brutal irony it is that infernocrats now saddle God with condemning sinners to Gehenna for everlasting punishment.

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. (Matt 10:31)

This is where Jesus teaches us that we have to wait in line while God destroys body and soul of the fowls of the air in Gehenna.

All your citations from the Rabbinic tradition are heretical. Why not cite the Talmud where they have Jesus burning in boiling excrement?

Do try to rejoice in Christ once in a while, der Alte.

In a way it's like he's trying to prove that Jesus validated Talmudic beliefs.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

In a way it's like he's trying to prove that Jesus validated Talmudic beliefs.

Crypto-Judaizing reasoning?

 

[ozso]

Crypto-Judaizing reasoning?

Something like that I suppose.

I found this interesting: When people speak of “the Talmud,” they are usually referring to the Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud), composed in Babylonia.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tale-of-two-talmuds/

I'm wondering of course how much Babylonian paganism carried over.

 

[Hmm]

Predestination is a hallmark of UR, is it not? As in all souls are predestined to ultimately return to God through Christ.

I guess that's right, our final destiny is predetermined, although we do have a choice in how we get there, the easy or the hard way. There is a big difference though between this and double predestination because UR preserves God's justice as no-one is predestined to eternal hell.

You make an interesting observation. Universalism does seem a bit like Calvanism but a nice one where everyone's an Elect and no-one's a Reprobate. It also seems similar to Catholicism without the hell where everyone goes to heaven either directly or indirectly via purgatory.

 

[Major1]

Why don't you try a thought experiment Major - self-immolate and see if a little water on the tongue eases the pain.

Didn't think so. Because the fire that Richie is experiencing as torment is in reality his resistant mindset to God's purifying burning love, his refusal to give it up and submit to the divine power. Don't be the Richie, Major, that's the message, else you be stymied by the unbridgable chasm and have to suffer in your own mind-made manacles until the judgment.

Nope.

That is exactly why I got saved. I believed what God said and did not want to burn in hell fire.

The Rich man in torments right now...is experiencing the pain of reality and he has no possiblity of being purified.

I AM NOT THE RICH man because I have accepted the payment for my sin by Christ so that I would not be in torments.

 

[Major1]

I guess that's right, our final destiny is predetermined, although we do have a choice in how we get there, the easy or the hard way. There is a big difference though between this and double predestination because UR preserves God's justice as no-one is predestined to eternal hell.

Universalism is a but ike Calvanism but where everyone's an Elect and no-one's a Reprobate, predestined to hell. It also seems similar to Catholicism but without hell where everyone either goes direct to heaven or indirectly via purgatory.

And right there is the perfect example of your flawed theology. NONE of what you just said is found in the Bible.

It is all conjecture and opinions and want to's.