Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

I thought everybody on the "Hell no! team." agreed that there is no word in Hebrew or Greek that means "eternal,""everlasting,""for ever." Oh wait I know Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" only mean "eternal" etc. when it fits UR assumptions/presuppositions.

All,

An alternative way of reading scripture than the above way is Lectio Divina (literally "divine reading"). It's a way of becoming immersed in the Scriptures very personally. It draws on the way Jews read the Haggadah, a text read during Passover that retells the Exodus story, where they try to imagine actually being there, relating to God at that time, and so in a sense reliving the experience rather than simply reciting the story.

A description from Wikipedia:
"In Western Christianity, Lectio Divina is a traditional monastic practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God's word. In the view of one commentator, it does not treat scripture as texts to be studied, but as the living word."

I'm sure we've all experienced the Bible as being the "living word". Sometimes when you read scripture a verse jumps off the page at you and seems to speak directly to your heart. Lectio Divina is sometimes described as reading scripture with the “ear of the heart.” and it's a way to connect to God.

Let me practice it and try to describe it as an illustration in case someone's never heard of it before. I scanned down the list of verses in the post above and selected no. 13, Luke 2:10. This kind of lept out, probably because it's quite short and easy to read in this special way.

The text is:
“good tidings of great joy will be to all people.”

I read this slowly a number of times, thinking about what it is saying to me. I imagine being a recipient of a good gift from God that will give me great joy and then looking around and seeing God bestowing the same great gift on every single person in the world. Because of the universality of the gift, it's obvious that I haven't been given it as a reward for anything I've done.

Sorry I've not explained it better but I hope I've introduced Lectio Divina to someone who hasn't heard of it before.

Not that it's particularly relevant, but it's interesting to note in a thread like this that the Christian form of Lectio Divina was first introduced by St. Gregory of Nyssa (c 330- 395), the beloved universalist aka "the father of fathers".

 

[ozso]

Jesus and his disciples were all southern baptists and only read the king james bible.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Perhaps it centers around the definition of humane behavior. What I would consider a God-given sympathy toward our fellow humans. We are quick to label the opposite as inhumane.

I don't think it's behaviour, it's the heart. Pharisees can make great shows of corporal charity.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear shrewd...........This may come as a shock to you, but I had nothing to do with the material found in the Bible.

"I" have many, many loved ones and friends who were lost and died. I would love to think that all of them would go to heaven.

To do that means that I would have to reject the word of God and place in its place WHAT I WANTED GOD TO HAVE SAID.

YOU seem to be able to do that but I just do not have tht ability or power.

God bless you my friend and thanks for the question.

Well isn't that the glad tidings of great joy for all mankind: My family and friends are rotting in hell, but Jesus saved me, much rejoicing in heaven!

Please don't give me the bad news Major, I don't think I could take it.

 

[ozso]

The "Hell no! team" cannot produce even one verse which states, unequivocally, that the unrighteous dead will be saved,, no matter what, even after death.
Let us consider Paul's "all in all in" light of his other statements.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Those verses applied to you, me and everyone else who got saved before they got saved. And since according to UR, everyone will get saved, so those verses will no longer apply to them either.

 

[ozso]

There ain't no nations in the grave or hell only dead bodies. You want nations? That has to be done in this life.

I thought everybody on the "Hell no! team." agreed that there is no word in Hebrew or Greek that means "eternal,""everlasting,""for ever." Oh wait I know Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" only mean "eternal" etc. when it fits UR assumptions/presuppositions.

You should know by now that the way it works in UR is "olam" and "aionios" always mean eternal when pertaining to God. And the reason why is because only God is truly eternal, in that He has no beginning, no starting point.

Whereas "olam" and "aionios" pertaining to mankind has starting points. Some of which haven't even taken place yet.

 

[Major1]

Well isn't that the glad tidings of great joy for all mankind: My family and friends are rotting in hell, but Jesus saved me, much rejoicing in heaven!

Please don't give me the bad news Major, I don't think I could take it.

And that right there my friend is the root of Universalism!!!

You said and I agree.......
"I don't think I could take it."

Please understand my dear friend......I do not give bad news. I only read and repeat what GOD HAS SAID!

 

[Major1]

I've had enough of this. Goodbye.

Blessing to you and good bye to you as well.

 

[ozso]

What's funny is I learned most of what I know about the UR perspective from spending few months on a UR website and forum called tentmaker.org about 12 years ago, when I first became curious about it. After that I pretty much didn't pursue it until I joined CF and saw the UR threads. What I'm saying here is that if it seems to me I know more about it than someone else, I have to conclude they don't know much since my knowledge of it really isn't all that deep.

 

[Major1]

Okay. I will speak a little slower and try to enunciate, so I don't lose you. No problem.

Sarcasm never works Steve.

Sarcasm is a form of verbal irony, wherein the speaker usually says the opposite of what they actually mean. Many times, a key giveaway that a person is being sarcastic is the tone of their voice, or, the tone of their writing.

That tone is usually on the hostile side. After all, the word “sarcasm” comes from the Greek root sarkazein, which means “to tear flesh like dogs.”

 

[Major1]

What's funny is I learned most of what I know about the UR perspective from spending few months on a UR website and forum called tentmaker.org about 12 years ago, when I first became curious about it. After that I pretty much didn't pursue it until I joined CF and saw the UR threads. What I'm saying here is that if it seems to me I know more about it than someone else, I have to conclude they don't know much since my knowledge of it really isn't all that deep.

Maybe....just maybe if you had spent the time in study of the word of God we would not be a odds here on this forum.

 

[Saint Steven]

And that right there my friend is the root of Universalism!!!

You said and I agree.......
"I don't think I could take it."

Please understand my dear friend......I do not give bad news. I only read and repeat what GOD HAS SAID!

Gospel = good news

If you are preaching BAD NEWS, that's not the Gospel. So, don't blame your BAD interpretation on God and then claim it as his word. (blasphemy)

 

[Saint Steven]

Sarcasm never works Steve.

Never is a BIG word.

 

[Major1]

No, if you understood UR you wouldn't be fighting against it.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Just to be clear, I don't expect you to LIKE what I post. My hope is only that you would make an attempt to UNDERSTAND what I post.

We don't seem to be there yet. I haven't given up on you.

I in fact clearly understand UR Steve,

I also undersatnd the word of God.

Maybe if you would spend time reading the Bible instead of living on this forum you would understand the whole word of God.

Joh 3:16.....
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

That is not rocket science!!!!

 

[Major1]

Never is a BIG word.

See what I mean! You are proving it!

 

[Saint Steven]

Maybe....just maybe if you had spent the time in study of the word of God we would not be a odds here on this forum.

There it is again.

If someones take on the Bible doesn't agree with your take on the Bible it means they haven't studied the Bible. - lol

How do you define arrogance?

 

[Saint Steven]

I also undersatnd the word of God.

That's debatable. You can't even spell it. (understand)

 

[Saint Steven]

Maybe if you would spend time reading the Bible instead of living on this forum you would understand the whole word of God.

The WHOLE word of God? (whatever that means)

I've read the Bible cover to cover and studied much of it.

 

[Major1]

Gospel = good news

If you are preaching BAD NEWS, that's not the Gospel. So, don't blame your BAD interpretation on God and then claim it as his word. (blasphemy)

Exactly.......Gospel = Good news.

Rejection of that Gospel = BAD news!

The comment you just made show us all the simplistic of your thinking.
Many things in life have good news and bad news associated with them. The entire truth is generally found in a combination of both. Emphasizing one side to the exclusion of the other is not the whole truth. The same is true of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Until we know the bad news, we can’t truly appreciate the good news. You would not appreciate a stranger bursting into your home and dragging you outside, unless you first understood that your house was on fire. Until we understand that we are destined for hell because of our sin, we cannot appreciate all that Jesus did for us on the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we don’t realize how hopeless we are, we won’t recognize the great hope Jesus offers (Hebrews 6:19). Unless we recognize that we are sinners, we can’t appreciate a Savior.

Romans 10:3-4..........
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

 

[Major1]

The WHOLE word of God? (whatever that means)

I've read the Bible cover to cover and studied much of it.

Then how in the world can you then deny the existance of Hell for lost sinners when God Himself told you about it?????