Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

You hairy ticks are really starting to tick me off.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, it is amazing that anyone would hold these thoughts. I wonder if part of the reason is the unconscious assumption that.salvation is a zero sum game: i.e, in order for me and everyone who thinks the same as me to be saved there has to be an equal (or preferably much larger) number of people who are not saved? As well as limiting God's ability to do as He wishes, which is to save all, this idea also carries the implication that my salvation depends not only on Christ's sacrifice but also on all those who are sent to an eternal hell - in the zero-sum game paradigm, I could not be saved unless someone else was damned. Obviously this cheapens Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

While reading your post I had an image in my mind of a human pyramid. The kind we see the gymnasts perform. But in this image, the one on top was "saved", while everyone below was "lost". Thus the salvation of the one on top was built upon the damnation of everyone below. This must be how the Infernalists see it.

 

[Hmm]

While reading your post I had an image in my mind of a human pyramid. The kind we see the gymnasts perform. But in this image, the one on top was "saved", while everyone below was "lost". Thus the salvation of the one on top was built upon the damnation of everyone below. This must be how the Infernalists see it.

Yes, they don't think that God is capable of holding them (and everyone) up high - they can only be high by standing on the shoulders of the damned. Weird eh?

 

[Major1]

That's true. But what do you do with these ALLs?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Use your computer and do a google search for clarity.

 

[Major1]

This is the sort of rubbish that is used to blame the victim of ECT. Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus at all. And no opportunity to even reject him. The same God that requires us to love our enemies will also love his own.

That is RATIONALISM. Because you do not like what God said....you change it to make yourself feel better.

While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances.

 

[Major1]

Where is your evidence for that? Are we reading the same Bible?

Of course not! Your posts prove that what you are saying is not found in the Bible.

Hebrews 9:27 ....
" And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"

Is that clear enough for you or do you require more "evidence".

 

[Major1]

There's no way I can see that someone who adheres to the doctrine of a certain theologian could possibly see things any other way. In that situation one is forced to think within the narrow box that theologian built; which is that God only predestined a few to accept Him, and purposely created everyone else, billions and billions of people, to be completely irredeemable totally depraved enemies against Him. So of course going by that, there's no hope whatsoever even for them in this life. They're all sons of perdition, and like Judas, it would have been better for them if they had never been born.

That is exactly why we as a human being with a God given brain must read the Scriptures and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us and NOT JUST FOLLOW THE OPIION OF A MAN.

 

[Major1]

1 Peter 3:19-20 says "after being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."

Does disobedient souls in prison, really sound like those who were in paradise?

MAXX. With all due respect to you, you do not seem to have a grasp of the Scriptures.

You are asking question which is answered in Luke 16 which says that the rich man..........
" And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Then in Luke 23:43......
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Then in Luke 16:26 we put it all together when we read........
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

So then, the Bible teaches us that in Sheol (Hell) there are TWO (2) compartments.
1. Torments where the rich man was and all the lost of the ages.
2. Paradise where the saints of God are.

Now do you actually think that Abraham was in torments????
Do you actually think that Jesus went to the Torments side of Sheol????

Those disobident, lost souls who did not choose God while alive are in the Torments side of Sheol waiting for the Great White Throne Judment.

Rev. 20:11.......
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

It is at that time that those disobident lost souls will be judged and throne into the Lake of Fire.

Rev. 20:15....
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev. 20:14......
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev. 20:10.........
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev. 21:8.........
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

 

[Major1]

I will not get into a UR vs ECT discussion, here. The point that I made is that it is not mentioned that torment in Hades in eternal.

In fact, ECT advocates know that torment in Hades in not eternal. Hades is temporary abode of the dead. After resurrection of the body and the final judgment, those who are condemned suffer in the Lake of Fire. This is straight forward ECT belief. Only @Major1 doesn't know this.


This is an interesting interpretation. There is no reason disagree with it.

Yes, the ole Major and millions of others know that Sheol/Hades/Hell or whatever name you choose to use actually becomes the Lake of Fire where ALL the lost of all the ages will speand ALL of eternity in torments.

Rev. 20:10......
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:13-14........
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev. 20:15.....
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is actually very, very easy......YOU either believe what God has said or YOU make it up as you go along.

 

[ozso]

MAXX. With all due respect to you, you do not seem to have a grasp of the Scriptures.

You are asking question which is answered in Luke 16 which says that the rich man..........
" And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Then in Luke 23:43......
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Then in Luke 16:26 we put it all together when we read........
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

So then, the Bible teaches us that in Sheol (Hell) there are TWO (2) compartments.
1. Torments where the rich man was and all the lost of the ages.
2. Paradise where the saints of God are.

Now do you actually think that Abraham was in torments????
Do you actually think that Jesus went to the Torments side of Sheol????

Those disobident, lost souls who did not choose God while alive are in the Torments side of Sheol waiting for the Great White Throne Judment.

Rev. 20:11.......
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

It is at that time that those disobident lost souls will be judged and throne into the Lake of Fire.

Rev. 20:15....
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev. 20:14......
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev. 20:10.........
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev. 21:8.........
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

It's not that I don't have a grasp, Major. It's that I've probably learned more and absorbed more regarding this than you have. You're giving me 101 verbatim doctrine that I've been very familiar with for quite a long time. I could have easily written what you just wrote, because I already know how it all goes. The difference between you and I, is that I'm familiar with other perspectives, from well known and respected teachers and theologians. I'm sure it makes you feel more comfortable to take the position that I and others who are able to argue with the fixed view you've been taught, don't understand scripture. But really the case is that I understand scripture and your view quite well, but I also understand other educated views just as well. Now how about dispensing with this tactic, and just discuss the matter as peers, okay?

 

[Major1]

It's not that I don't have a grasp, Major. It's that I've probably learned more and absorbed more regarding this than you have. You're giving me 101 verbatim doctrine that I've been very familiar with for quite a long time. I could have easily written what you just wrote, because I already know how it all goes. The difference between you and I, is that I'm familiar with other perspectives, from well known and respected teachers and theologians. I'm sure it makes you feel more comfortable to take the position that I and others who are able to argue with the fixed view you've been taught, don't understand scripture. But really the case is that I understand scripture and your view quite well, but I also understand other views just as well.

Dear MAXX, I do not do this because it opens the door to lots of other things. However I feel as if I need to tell you that you may think that you have learned more and maybe you have but maybe you haven't. I will not list my credentials because they would then be used as a rock by those who disagree.

I also have lived a long life and been involved in many other disciplines and teachings. I understand that you are well educated which can only mean one thing......YOU have made the choice to reject what God has said to believe what your mind and heart has lead you to believe and I have done the exact opposite.

Been there and done that my friend.

 

[ozso]

That is exactly why we as a human being with a God given brain must read the Scriptures and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us and NOT JUST FOLLOW THE OPIION OF A MAN.

A man like John Calvin? What a good student of the Bible and Christianity does is examine and weigh various Christian doctrines and theologies. Quite a lot of what you say is pretty much scripted. You're not saying anything that others, especially those from your school of learning, haven't already said word for word.

 

[Hmm]

Now how about dispensing with this tactic, and just discuss the matter as peers, okay?

Well said, no-one has a monopoly on the truth. We all see as through a glass darkly and can learn from each other. Its absurd to lecture others on what we only know in part. It would be a lot more interesting if all these ad homs. stopped.

 

[ozso]

Dear MAXX, I do not do this because it opens the door to lots of other things. However I feel as if I need to tell you that you may think that you have learned more and maybe you have but maybe you haven't. I will not list my credentials because they would then be used as a rock by those who disagree.

There's a lot of anonymous people here who talk about their credentials. Often in a manner which suggests that those whom they're talking to aren't on even terms with them. And here's a thing to be quite frank, there are those on CF who amaze me with the depth of their knowledge. So far, you're not one of them. Like I said you're presenting 101 theology. This tact that you're taking is only good at avoiding having an in-depth discussion and going nowhere.

I also have lived a long life and been involved in many other disciplines and teachings. I understand that you are well educated which can only mean one thing......YOU have made the choice to reject what God has said to believe what your mind and heart has lead you to believe and I have done the exact opposite.

That is so hackneyed. If I don't agree with or I debate the theology and doctrine you've embraced, then that means I am rejecting scripture and rejecting God and so on and so forth. I've heard that before you know. And from those who's doctrine and theology you most likely do not agree with.

 

[ozso]

Well said, no-one has a monopoly on the truth. We all see as through a glass darkly and can learn from each other, not to lecture others on what we only know in part. It would be a lot more interesting if all these ad homs. ceased.

Some people get taught, that what they've been taught, is the only possible and acceptable teaching and everything outside of it is ignorance and or a doctrine of demons.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is RATIONALISM. Because you do not like what God said....you change it to make yourself feel better.

Unfortunately, the opposite of rationalism is irrationalism. (your position) Do you really claim that EVERYONE that has gone into the afterlife has had the opportunity to know and either accept or reject Christ?

What is the current population and death rate in China? How many went to the afterlife today with no knowledge whatsoever of Christ?

Saint Steven said: ↑
This is the sort of rubbish that is used to blame the victim of ECT. Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus at all. And no opportunity to even reject him. The same God that requires us to love our enemies will also love his own.

 

[Hmm]

Some people get taught, that what they've been taught, is the only possible and acceptable teaching and everything outside of it is ignorance and or a doctrine of demons.

That's true, whereas the true test of how well you know something is how much you realise how little it is you know and how more there is yet.to learn. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[ozso]

Of course not! Your posts prove that what you are saying is not found in the Bible.

Hebrews 9:27 ....
" And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"

Is that clear enough for you or do you require more "evidence".

@Saint Steven, how many times have you had Hebrews 9:27 delivered to you?

The thing is Major, Christian universalists believe in judgement after death. You should come up with scripture that actually goes against their views.

 

[Saint Steven]

While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances.

Oh course there is a judgment in the afterlife. That doesn't prove that God will not be merciful. People tend to forget that one of the options in judgment is mercy. AND that even after consequences there is life. And your other references all work with UR as well.

God so loved what? (the world) If you confess with your mouth what? (you will be saved) Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be what? (saved) None of these limits salvation to this life.

John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31

 

[Saint Steven]

@Saint Steven, how many times have you had Hebrews 9:27 delivered to you?

I've lost count. - lol
It doesn't prove their point against UR.
"... then to face judgment." And then what?