Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

I'm not posturing. I'm asking relevant questions and you guys just happen to not like it.

Our last dozen posts were to discuss how irrelevant your questions are. Drop the loaded questions and you might find our posts loaded with answers. (act now - this is a limited time offer - lol)

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't reject it in full, even if I can say I think it's doubtable.

Isn't everything "doubtable" to an existentialist?
Which would mean that UR is no worse than anything else in your view. Right?

 

[Der Alte]

Our last dozen posts were to discuss how irrelevant your questions are. Drop the loaded questions and you might find our posts loaded with answers. (act now - this is a limited time offer - lol)

To me this is UR-speak for "I don't like your question(s) so I will just ignore them."

 

[Saint Steven]

There are some interpretive aspects of it that I agree with over those found in the position of ECT ...

I have always maintained that all three views of the final judgment have biblical support. Choosing one, basically negates the others. The views are in serious contradiction with each other. You understand that, right?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Your sidebar says "Christian". The mods can "fix" that for you. They can re-designate your belief status. Unless you fear that your mortal soul would be endangered by such a declaration. What to do, what to do... ?

You do realize that Kierkegaard was an existentialist AND a Christian, right?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Would you be so kind as to post your two questions in understandable terms? Maybe we can resolve this then.

OK.

1) How do those in the UR framework 'fit in' the area of study regarding the New Testament writers Use of the Old Testament?

2) How do those in the UR framework 'fit in' the area of study regarding 1st Century forms of Jewish Thought?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Isn't everything "doubtable" to an existentialist?

It depends on the Existentialist you're inquiring to. Kierkegaard would say one thing, Sartre another, Nietzsche his own view and others different yet again.

One note, too. My Existentialism isn't a 'total' existentialism, I'm also a Critical Realism who avers for Philosophical Hermeneutics, along with other Christians who do so.

Which would mean that UR is no worse than anything else in your view. Right?

Yep. Which is why I you've never seen me do anything rash like insinuating that you guys are somehow 'un-Christian.' I firmly see you all as fellow Christians even if I happen to disagree on some points.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have always maintained that all three views of the final judgment have biblical support. Choosing one, basically negates the others. The views are in serious contradiction with each other. You understand that, right?

And I've stated before in this thread something along the lines that I think the data is underdetermined, meaning that I think there isn't quite enough data for any of us to make an ultimately decisive analysis between UR, Annihilationism or ECT. All of these positions have strengths and weaknesses, but they all agree on at least some basic essentials---Jesus is Lord and Savior and we can have something to lose by not accepting Jesus in this life, even if (at the least) it's just for some limited time.

 

[Saint Steven]

You do realize that Kierkegaard was an existentialist AND a Christian, right?

Well, since this isn't an existentialist forum, maybe discussing as a Christian would more appropriate?

I watched a whole bunch of desert flash flood videos a while back. It's amazing all the stuff they pick up on the way, that they push out in front. I thought of that when I read your post. Check it out.

Huge flash flood rips down Johnson Canyon with major debris plug from up near the Bryce Canyon area, including massive pine trees and other debris from the higher elevations. Was able to intercept this flood multiple times as it passed down the canyon.

 

[Saint Steven]

OK.

1) How do those in the UR framework 'fit in' the area of study regarding the New Testament writers Use of the Old Testament?

2) How do those in the UR framework 'fit in' the area of study regarding 1st Century forms of Jewish Thought?

Great, thanks.
1) No idea. I didn't know there was such a thing. I might be curious.
2) No idea. Is that relevant somehow?

Any other questions?

 

[Saint Steven]

It depends on the Existnetialist you're inquiring to. Kierkegaard would say one thing, Sartre another, Niezsche his own view and others different yet again.

Reminds me of UR. There is no standard belief set. But unlike other groups, we don't declare war on each other over differences. They really don't matter.

 

[Saint Steven]

One note, too. My Existentialism isn't a 'total' existentialism, I'm also a Critical Realism who avers for Philosophical Hermeneutics, along with other Christians who do so.

Should I cut the blue wire, or the green wire?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yep. Which is why I you've never seen me do anything rash like insinuation that you guys are somehow 'un-Christian.' I firmly see you all as fellow Christians even if I happen to disagree on some points.

Maybe our thoughts shouldn't be labeled as "notions" then. Just sayin'.

 

[Saint Steven]

And I've stated before in this thread something along the lines that I think the data is underdetermined, meaning that I think there isn't quite enough data for any of us to make an ultimately decisive analysis between UR, Annihilationism or ECT.

Some take that view, which I respect. Others make a decision one way or the other. Most just stick with the status quo, be it ever so ugly. You'll ride the grizzly if you are afraid of horses.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Maybe our thoughts shouldn't be labeled as "notions" then. Just sayin'.

Well, if it's a position that is underdetermined like many others, why wouldn't it be a notion in the same way that, say, Annihilationism is also a notion (which happens to be the notion of punitive ends-states that I presently lean toward, even though I know it's underdetermined like U.R. is underdetermined?

Again, my use of the term notion is in reference to its main usage, not the derogatory one that refers to a more "whimsical idea." I don't think U.R. is whimsical, and neither are ECT or Annihilationism. But they are underdetermined notions about interpretive approaches to aspects of Scripture.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Should I cut the blue wire, or the green wire?

No, that's not the question, Steven. The question is: Should you take the Red Pill or the Blue Pill? (see the movie, the Matrix, if by chance you aren't familiar with this meme.)

And yes, this is meant to bit of humor for you to get a chuckle from.

 

[Saint Steven]

Again, my use of the term notion is in reference to its main usage, not the derogatory one that refers to a more "whimsical idea." I don't think U.R. is whimsical, and neither are ECT or Annihilationism. But they are underdetermined notions about interpretive approaches to aspects of Scripture.

Unfortunately the word "notion" comes off as an impulse, or whim. (silly notion) It just has a bad reputation. But maybe only with me. I'll let others rate my post with AGREE if they do.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Reminds me of UR. There is no standard belief set. But unlike other groups, we don't declare war on each other over differences. They really don't matter.

Well, I'm glad you guys don't declare war on your fellow Christians. And neither do I. But I do take umbrage when fellow Christians insinuate that I'm somehow 'less' of a Christian than they are or less moral, or less insightful, or less (or not at all) genuine, or .... and here's the kicker for me.... "posturing."

I really don't expect such to receive galling digs, insinuations about perceived deficiencies in my character, or utter dismissals from fellow Christians. I do expect them---and have often gotten these---from the many atheists and skeptics I've debated with over the years. But I don't expect that kind of thing from fellow Christians.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Unfortunately the word "notion" comes off as an impulse, or whim. (silly notion) It just has a bad reputation. But maybe only with me. I'll let others rate my post with AGREE if they do.

ok. But I showed you earlier that there is another, more frequently used definition of the word. And that is the one that I'm referring to.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, if it's a position that is underdetermined like many others, why wouldn't it be a notion in the same way...

What?!!!
Since when is UR "underdetermined"???!!!!
I would say it is very well determined.