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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Andrewn

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What is absolutely amazing is to compare modern Christians who hate the idea of UR to ancient Christians who saw first hand the persecution, severe torture, and martyrdom of their families and friends and still believed in a UR that included their torturers!!!

Where is the hate that one would expect? We see ultimate love of their enemies. Just like God who "causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good."

Many of those ancient saints were later tortured themselves and murdered.

UR opponents here could have answered with something like, "I don't think the evidence you present is strong enough but I really hope that you are right and Christ's salvation is for everyone."

Instead, some used abusive language that they would probably not elsewhere.
 
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Hmm

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Yes, and I think to people undergoing experiences like that, justice would have meant God giving them a new life in heaven where they were happy and not persecuted and tortured. To many in the more comfortable countries in modern world, God's justice seems to mean.sending those who think differently from us to hell! We have strayed a long way.


But it kind of wins the argument for Christian universalism because if this is the best it's antagonists can do...
 
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Der Alte

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Another one of those UR pie in the sky dismissals. There is scant evidence that any significant number of "ancient Christians ... believed in a UR that included their torturers!!!"
Here is what I would consider iron clad evidence of UR, God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying unequivocally that "All mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous, alike even after death" or words to that effect.
And oh by the way when UR-ites stop using abusive language toward those who hold with the literal interpretation of Matthew 25:46 then perhaps they can be more cordial.
 
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Hmm

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Here is what I would consider iron clad evidence of UR, God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying unequivocally that "All mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous, alike even after death" or words to that effect.

You're in luck then:

1 Corinthians 15:22: “for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.”

Romans 5:18: “Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.”

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - “For no one can lay another foundation beside the one laid down, which is Jesus the Messiah. Now, if on this foundation one erects gold, silver, precious stones, woods, hay, straw, Each one’s work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire will prove what kind of work each person’s is. If the work that someone has built endures, he will receive a reward; If anyone’s work should be burned away, he will suffer loss, yet he shall be saved, though so as by fire.”

1 Corinthians 15:28 - “And, when all things have been subordinated to him, then will the Son himself also be subordinated to the one who has subordinated all things to him, so that God may be all in all.”

I'll just give you these few for now because I wouldn't want to give you indigestion.
 
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Der Alte

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I have addressed these out-of-context proof texts many times before. Do you not understand what "God, Himself," or "Jesus, Himself says" means? Not, what a prophet or disciple wrote but something that starts with "And God, said..." or "And Jesus said...,"
Although you provided some of the context of 1 Cor 3:11-15, you still deliberately ignored the full context.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.​
These verses clearly show that Paul is not talking to/about all mankind but only to “laborers together with God,””God's husbandry,””God's building” “who build on the foundation of Christ” vss, 9-12.
Paul mentions this foundation three times. Vs. 11 excludes any work not on the foundation of Christ.
The phrases “every man,””no man,””any man,” throughout this passage refer to the group in vss. 9-10, NOT all mankind.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon [the foundation of Christ], he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​
The work mentioned in these these vss. is NOT the ordinary mundane works of all mankind but the work of building on the foundation of Christ. Man is NOT saved by works.
And vs. 15 does not say anyone is saved by fire. It says, “Yet so as by fire.”
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​
Vs. 17 clearly refutes UR in this passage. All mankind is not saved, those who defile the temple will be destroyed.
This passage is NOT speaking about all mankind no matter how UR-ites try to twist it.
Nowhere is it written that the loss of ordinary, mundane works of unsaved mankind will save anyone.
 
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Hmm

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The texts are clear and don't need me to defend their meaning and so I won't. You are of course free to engage in mental gymnastics to assign another meaning to them if you so wish.
 
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Der Alte

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The texts are clear and don't need me to defend their meaning and so I won't. You are of course free to engage in mental gymnastics to assign another meaning to them if you so wish.
I just showed you that you are wrong. 1 Corinthians 3:9-17 has absolutely nothing to do universal reconciliation. The passage is addressed solely to a specific group “laborers together with God,””God's husbandry,””God's building” “who build on the foundation of Christ” NOT all mankind.
Of course, if someone ignores certain verses and emphasizes others they can make scripture say almost anything they want it to.
You can't defend the meaning you have assigned to the verses, while ignoring other verses in the same passage.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Lol! ... Kierkegaard as a "Pharisee.." ! What a concept!

What a special guffaw. All I know about Kierkegaard is that he completely missed the point with his Akedah ruminations.
 
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It seems like hopeful universalism says it is possible and maybe even probable that universal reconciliation will happen

Wouldn't hopeful UR become faithful UR once a person believes it's probable - on the scales? Seems to me there's no room for 'hopeful' UR - you either put faith in it (to some degree) or you don't (ie you reject it). To claim hope and eschew faith in any subject is a kind of no-man's land of hypocritical fence-sitting, which might well earn the claimant a divine mouth-spew. Without at least a modicum of faith behind it, any hope is surely forlorn.

Traditional theology has often understood universalism as saying that there is no accountability, because the standards are so low that everyone gets in.

Well, traditional theology is ignorant. Sadly the darkness just can't comprehend the light.

Hopeful universalism seems to me to say that there are in fact real standards, so failure is conceptually possible, but God may enable everyone to meet them.

A bit legalistic, no? Cast out those money changers. We've all sinned and fallen short. Grace is a gift not a wage. The angel's gospel is glad tidings of great joy for all men, not 'take another heavy burden' - that's the Pharisees' job, as they go in and deny entry to others.

actual universalists are hopeful universalists whose hope is a bit stronger.

I think you're talking about having faith in UR.


Good to be confident. That's called faith, brother. 'Now give it all up and follow UR.'


If the Bible told you in such definitive terms, what room would be left for faith? We know God is good, Jesus gives his life to save even his enemies. Grace abounds over sin and so on and so forth. I mean, He's really not asking for much of a leap of faith, them immovable pillars are set on an eternal foundation.


Ok, Gehenna is a Pharisee word, at least that's how Jesus tackles it, wrests it from those 'sons of hell' and redeems it by converting it from a prison/ death house to a hospital. And to this day the devil just keeps scaring ppl with that hobgoblin and convincing them they won't measure up and God will abandon them. That sir is blasphemy against the life-giving HS and a shipwreck of faith. Viva the theion of the Great Physician, anathema to the pharmakaeia of Babylon!

Because he didn't say anything more explicit, and (particularly in Luke) used such a variety of different ways of speaking, I would understand Jesus as talking about accountability, but not the specific form it would take.

Of course it's about overcoming, but the triune God and His angels are here to help. The never said it wouldn't be painful. First thing - burn the accounts.
 
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I think it is the opposite. In Hebrews 11:1, faith is the hypostasis / substance / basis that substantiates hope. Faith is the evidence / proof / facts that support the theory / hope.

I stand corrected, thank you sir.
 
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ozso

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That doesn't make any sense really because every "And God, said..." or "And Jesus said...," was written down by prophets and disciples. Is it if they wrote down "thus saith the Lord" it must be from God, but otherwise what they wrote down might just be stuff that they made up? This and the "pie in the sky" wishing you speak of, reminds me of what atheists say to reason that what Christians believe in is fiction and fantasy.
 
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Well said. You can't hope for one thing and have faith in something else. The two are combined. Faith involves trust and trust involves risk taking which involves hope, and vice-versa.

Edited. "Involves" not "invoices". Pesky autocorrect.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What a special guffaw. All I know about Kierkegaard is that he completely missed the point with his Akedah ruminations.

Are you trying to imply that Kierkegaard actually was a Pharisee of sorts? What is your point, however lately made?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@Shrewd Manager
Are you trying to imply that Kierkegaard actually was a Pharisee of sorts? What is your point, however lately made?

If anything, I might find Kierkegaard was partially at at fault since it doesn't seem he took any hard stance against UR ...

And fortunately for me, it's only his treatment of Lessing's Ditch that really gets my attention, along with the fact that I agree with him that theology is difficult to really handle in any truly systematic way. The rest of what Kierkegaard has said is, I think, optional and not something I rely on.
 
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Fervent

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Are you trying to imply that Kierkegaard actually was a Pharisee of sorts? What is your point, however lately made?
It's kind of strange how "pharisee" has become a sort of catch-all insult when it was originally a rather benign term that simply described an eschatological position.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It's kind of strange how "pharisee" has become a sort of catch-all insult when it was originally a rather benign term that simply described an eschatological position.

Agreed.
 
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rjs330

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All wonderful verses. None of them teach universal salvation. Scriptural doctrine cannot be held to individual verses while ignoring other verses. Context and teaching is crucial.

Just the first verse alone is a great example. All the nations are blessed by the coming of Christ who is the redeemer. It does not say all the nations shall be saved from their sin.
 
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rjs330

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Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18

Wow, this just goes to show how bad this is. This verse is taken totally out of context to make sound like UR.

Reading chapter 4 and the rest of Chapter 5 and 6 gives context.
But the words, “it was credited to his account. . . ,” were not written for him only.They were written also for us, who will certainly have our account credited too, because we have trusted in him who raised Yeshua our Lord from the dead —Yeshua, who was delivered over to death because of our offences and raised to life in order to make us righteous. - Romans 4:23-25 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:23-25 - Complete Jewish Bible

So, since we have come to be considered righteous by God because of our trust, let us continue to have shalom with God through our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.Also through him and on the ground of our trust, we have gained access to this grace in which we stand; so let us boast about the hope of experiencing God’s glory. - Romans 5:1-2 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:1-2 - Complete Jewish Bible

For what one earns from sin is death; but eternal life is what one receives as a free gift from God, in union with the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord. - Romans 6:23 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6:23 - Complete Jewish Bible

It is the trust in God and union in Christ that provides salvation. We are made righteous because of our trust in him. It is not automatic for everyone.
 
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