Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Saint Steven · Oct 20, 2021

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Carl Emerson · Oct 20, 2021

2 Corinthians 4:18

New American Standard Bible

18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Ainios in this verse is translated eternal compared with proskairos which is translated 'for a season'

This is the same in every translation I have seen - I am not sure what could be more plain.

This is the same translation in 66 places in the NT.

Hmm · Oct 21, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Great examples. The word has a wide range of meaning, having a relation to duration as the word great does to size. We say God is infinite when we call him the Great God, not because great means infinite, but because God is infinite.

The aionion God is of eternal duration, but the aionion slaves will be set free - slaves were to remain in bondage forever, (Lev. 26:46) although every fiftieth year all Hebrew servants were to be set free, (Lev. 26:10). Aionion means "a long time" here - it's where we get the word eon from. Fifty years of slavery will feel like forever but it will eventually end.

All merely aionian things will one day come to an end including hell which itself is a bad translation of Gehenna/Hades/Sheol. ECT is built on such rocky foundations.

Andrewn · Oct 21, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I've been in a Pentecostal church for over 30 years. I have lots of stories. But as a precursor, I was raised Protestant Evangelical, but my parents were supportive of Charismatic churches. They attended on evenings and weekend days. My Mom had several shoe boxes full of message (preaching) cassette tapes. (remember those? - lol) My first step was to seek the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:5) And especially the evidence of speaking in tongues. Being from an Evangelical background, I wanted solid biblical proof of everything.

Interesting that you distinguish Pentecostal from Evangelical churches. I've always considered Pentecostal to be a subtype of Evangelical because they generally believe in at least 4 of the following:

1) Credobaptism
2) Symbolic view of the Eucharist.
3) Literal interpretation of the OT.
4) Penal substitution theory of atonement.
5) Dispensationalist eschatology.

It is true that traditionally Baptists are Calvinists and Pentecostals are Arminians, but this ultimately depends on the personal preference of the pastor of a certain congregation. Even regarding the gifts of the HS, this also depends on the preferences of the pastor and whether he chooses to preach about this or not.

I'd like to know your observations about the distinction of both groups.

Carl Emerson · Oct 21, 2021

Hmm said:
Great examples. The word has a wide range of meaning, having a relation to duration as the word great does to size. We say God is infinite when we call him the Great God, not because great means infinite, but because God is infinite.

The aionion God is of eternal duration, but the aionion slaves will be set free - slaves were to remain in bondage forever, (Lev. 26:46) although every fiftieth year all Hebrew servants were to be set free, (Lev. 26:10). Aionion means "a long time" here - it's where we get the word eon from. Fifty years of slavery will feel like forever but it will eventually end.

All merely aionian things will one day come to an end including hell which itself is a bad translation of Gehenna/Hades/Sheol. ECT is built on such rocky foundations.

I conclude you guys are in an echo chamber and only able to hear your own voices.

Andrewn · Oct 21, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I have quoted Vines for the Greek translation of the word used in scripture to describe an attribute of God. You can deny this if you want but to do so is to deny the plain meaning of scripture from the greek text.

God’s wrath is not angry retribution against those who have offended God. Rather it is his righteous judgment against those who do evil. God's wrath is a function of his love. I've found the following short article to be useful. If you don't have time, try reading the last 3 paragraphs starting with:

"It is important to understand the divine wrath and to see that it is not the manifestation of any irascibility"

Fr. Lawrence Farley. Why We Need a God of Wrath

Let me know what you think about the article.

Andrewn · Oct 21, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Scholars have clearly shown that "Aionios" does not mean "infinitely everlasting" and the explanation has been repeatedly presented in this thread. Different Bible translators cannot change the translation if they want to sell copies.

Some people will always refuse to hear anything different from their traditions. It is like they are in an echo chamber and only able to hear those who agree with them. There is a sense of safety in numbers. They would rather exploit old ideas than explore new ideas.

Just imagine how difficult it must be for non-Christians to believe Christ's Gospel and reject their traditions. I feel sorry for them. Do they deserve endless punishment?

Hmm · Oct 21, 2021

Andrewn said:
Different Bible translators cannot change the translation if they want to sell copies.

Good point.

Andrewn said:
Just imagine how difficult it must be for non-Christians to believe Christ's Gospel and reject their traditions.

It's a great failure of the church's mission not to correct this. ECT has done incalculable damage through deterring newcomers to church by telling them they must check their brains in at the door and through the anxiety and depression it causes in many of it's believers.

Carl Emerson · Oct 21, 2021

Andrewn said:
God’s wrath is not angry retribution against those who have offended God. Rather it is his righteous judgment against those who do evil. God's wrath is a function of his love.

Agree...

Will read tomorrow.

Saint Steven · Oct 21, 2021

Andrewn said:
Interesting that you distinguish Pentecostal from Evangelical churches. I've always considered Pentecostal to be a subtype of Evangelical because they generally believe in at least 4 of the following:

1) Credobaptism
2) Symbolic view of the Eucharist.
3) Literal interpretation of the OT.
4) Penal substitution theory of atonement.
5) Dispensationalist eschatology.

It is true that traditionally Baptists are Calvinists and Pentecostals are Arminians, but this ultimately depends on the personal preference of the pastor of a certain congregation. Even regarding the gifts of the HS, this also depends on the preferences of the pastor and whether he chooses to preach about this or not.

I'd like to know your observations about the distinction of both groups.

I agree, Pentecostalism is a subset of Evangelicalism.
Though some hardcore Pentecostals may see it the other way around. - lol
Pentecost (the outpouring) came before Evangelicalism.

For me, the biggest difference between Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism is the view and use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Evangelical churches being Cessationist and the Pentecostals being Continuationist.

So bottom line, the exercise of the gifts is the biggest difference. But this is played down quite a bit in the churches I attend. Someone that had been attending for a few months actually asked me, "So, do you folks speak in tongues around here?" - lol

Saint Steven · Oct 21, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I conclude you guys are in an echo chamber and only able to hear your own voices.

That saw cuts both ways.

Besides, we are fully appraised of Damnationism and Annihilationism. It's not as if we haven't made an informed choice. Can you say that?

UR is suppressed in the churches. This is a venue where it can be discussed.
Although you aren't even trying to understand it.
Just shooting from the hip because you have prejudged it to be wrong.

What do you like best about hell?
And why do you fight tooth and nail to preserve it?

And in reference to your comment about God not being our Daddy (Abba Father)...

Matthew 18:3 NIV
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

RobertE- · Oct 21, 2021

Hmm said:
What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

I guess the issue must be with the Greek aion which some say means an age or aeon

Andrewn · Oct 21, 2021

RobertE- said:
I guess the issue must be with the Greek aion which some say means an age or aeon

Yes, this is what "aion" means. The Nicene Creed says:

"I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

The Greek word translated "age" is "aion."

The word "aion" itself is a translation of the Hebrew "olam" as in "olam ha-ba" the Jewish expression: age to come.

Hmm · Oct 21, 2021

Deleted my reply as Andrew's is far better.

RobertE- · Oct 21, 2021

S

Andrewn said:
Yes, this is what "aion" means. The Nicene Creed says:

"I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

The Greek word translated "age" is "aion."

The word "aion" itself is a translation of the Hebrew "olam" as in "olam ha-ba" the Jewish expression: age to come.

So begs the question, does everyone enter the party at some point later.

Hmm · Oct 21, 2021

RobertE- said:
S

So begs the question, does everyone enter the party at some point later.

In a word, yes.

RobertE- · Oct 21, 2021

Hmm said:
In a word, yes.

So that begs the question, from a neutral position, why the verses about hell / hinnom / hades / eternal /eonian, does it not? A fundamental question. And if there is a punishment for a time, then why not shorten it if Christ has taken the sin of the world.

Hmm · Oct 21, 2021

RobertE- said:
So that begs the question, from a neutral position, why the verses about hell / hinnom / hades / eternal /eonian, does it not?

There is as hell but it has a corrective/educative purpose and lasts for a limited duration.

RobertE- said:
A fundamental question. And if there is a punishment for a time, then why not shorten it if Christ has taken the sin of the world.

How can we tell how long God would need to win some people over?

eleos1954 · Oct 21, 2021

Andrewn said:
No, God does not force anyone. But the word translated "draws" is a lot stronger than "invites." It actually means "drags." Consider how it is used in the following verses:
Jhn 6:44; Jhn 12:32; Jhn 18:10; Jhn 21:6; Jhn 21:11; Act 16:19; Act 21:30; Jas 2:6.

James 4

Drawing Near to God

7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter to mourning, and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

John 12
32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag?) everyone to Myself.

Take the verses you listed and substitute drag for draw and see if you think this gives a picture of a loving God.

ie ... John 6:44

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (drags?) him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

He invites .... He don't drag anyone.

John 14:6

It is Jesus that is offering this invitation, thus it is Jesus that we are to come unto. ... It is therefore the plan of God that coming to Him would be through coming to His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me”.

We are drawn to Him when we understand the beauty of his unfailing love for us.

Carl Emerson · Oct 21, 2021

Andrewn said:
God’s wrath is not angry retribution against those who have offended God. Rather it is his righteous judgment against those who do evil. God's wrath is a function of his love. I've found the following short article to be useful. If you don't have time, try reading the last 3 paragraphs starting with:

"It is important to understand the divine wrath and to see that it is not the manifestation of any irascibility"

Fr. Lawrence Farley. Why We Need a God of Wrath

Let me know what you think about the article.

Yes I read the whole article and it expresses my position quite regarding the wrath of God.

As I had previously said - we don't just have a big daddy in the sky - and that truth has upset some readers - maybe they could read the article and comment.

Thanks Andrew...

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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