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Take no prisoners. - lolI would have gone through something of a culture shock if I’d exchanged messages with a beefy argumentative poster like @Saint Steven in my early twenties.Could have blown my misconceptions out of the water.
Come on, even you agree that there are a handful of UR verses. I'm not throwing the whole book away. - lolAre you sure that you want to argue that the Bible is false teaching? If so, I can hardly feature how it would be possible to argue for "Christian Universalism," even though that's the topic here and the title of the thread.
But don't you appreciate how that diminishes or completely rebuts your POV? The Bible, and it being the revealed word of God, is fundamental to just about all varieties of Christianity. If IT isn't authoritative with regards to this issue, does the issue have any relevance to Christianity?I likely won't convince you on the basis of scripture.
Yes, but now you've taken the additional step. Previously, I could just say that you concluded something about the nature of God that was unwarranted.But what does your position declare about the character of God. I guess I can use scripture to make that point. Though you will argue that is not specific to UR, however, it is specific to the character of God. You may have seen me post this before.
Well, I think that if any of us are saved, he's loving and forgiving as well as just.Jesus teaches us to love our enemies, because this is godly behavior. Scripture below.
Seems contradictory then to claim that God will incinerate his enemies, and to further package this as love and/or justice. ???
That's a very standard argument. It's completely based upon human reasoning.What does this say about the character of God? Does he hold himself to a lower standard than we do? Seems slanderous to make God out as a cosmic tyrant with an anger management problem. Right? I have a higher regard for God than that.
Agreed. . .and in Isaiah 30:33, but it is not revealed there as the destiny of the reprobate.Pardon me, but that is just not true. In the KJV, "hell" is first seen in Deuteronomy 32:22,
but the word in Hebrew is "sheol," which is translated as "grave" or "pit" about half the time in the OT. "Hel" and "hell" are not found in the Hebrew or the Greek languages - they came from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The OED places the first use of "hell" in English at about 850 AD, a time when a lot of loan words were coming over from Norse. So we have "hell" in the ordinary KJV, "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV. Further back, in "Beowulf," we have "hel," "hell" and "helle." "Beowulf" points to Denmark, so a look at Norse mythology gives us the goddess/ogress Hel, who ruled over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." The pagan Norse believed that if you did not die in battle and thus lost your ticket to Valhalla, you spent eternity in Helheim.
That's just nomenclature, it all means the same thing, Gehenna.As for Jesus, He spoke of "hades" and "gehenna," and "hell" was inserted during translation.
Good. But if the Bible is not sidestepped or dismissed, my explanation must again be taken under consideration.Come on, even you agree that there are a handful of UR verses. I'm not throwing the whole book away. - lol
No, I honestly don't appreciate that at all. - lolBut don't you appreciate how that diminishes or completely rebuts your POV? The Bible, and it being the revealed word of God, is fundamental to just about all varieties of Christianity. If IT isn't authoritative with regards to this issue, does the issue have any relevance to Christianity?
No, I honestly don't appreciate that at all. - lol
The books were cooked. I'm pushing for prosecution. It's absolutely criminal.
I'm glad that we have have a Bible. But I question whether that was God's intention, or a man-made decision to declare such about paper and ink. I don't think God wants mindless robots that can't see beyond a text. Even Jesus understood this.
I'll allow you to say that now. Go ahead.Yes, but now you've taken the additional step. Previously, I could just say that you concluded something about the nature of God that was unwarranted.
Good parents don't correct their children by putting them in a blazing hot oven. That shouldn't be hard to understand. And it doesn't resemble justice by any stretch of the imagination. People tend to forget that mercy is always an option in judgment.That's because we are all sinners. Without his generosity, we all would deserve nothing after physical death and could not face a judgment claiming to have earned eternal life by our own track records.
Sorry, I won't let you reduce me to that level. I was raised in the church and have read and studied the Bible cover to cover. I don't come at this from a purely emotional stance. Which should be obvious.The idea that we come to know the ways of God just by reasoning it out, using our own mortal faculties, seems defective to me. It's why we have divine revelation to guide us, because we otherwise couldn't figure out much that is beyond our given abilities and our own limited frame of reference.
Didn't your doctor ask you to lose a little weight? - lolThe weight of Scripture is definitely not on the side of the Universalists.
Good point in your first sentence. That was something I had to come to grips with early on in this process. You are mistaken in assuming that the church is a human institution. The Body of Christ is bigger than that. IMHOAnd we should make no mistake about this: When and if we start punching holes in Scripture and deciding to affirm the parts that appeal to us and dismissing the parts that do not, and/or deciding on the basis of some book writer's opinions, we've departed from the word of God. Doing that puts us outside the boundaries of historic Christianity, i.e. the Church that we were promised the Holy Spirit would keep safe from having the gates of hell prevail against it.
I always take your explanations under consideration. Not sure that saw cuts both ways though.Good. But if the Bible is not sidestepped or dismissed, my explanation must again be taken under consideration.
You have no idea where this battle against the word of God written is going to take you. . .No, I honestly don't appreciate that at all. - lol
The books were cooked. I'm pushing for prosecution. It's absolutely criminal.
I'm glad that we have have a Bible. But I question whether that was God's intention, or a man-made decision to declare such about paper and ink. I don't think God wants mindless robots that can't see beyond a text. Even Jesus understood this.
Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
Saint Steven said: ↑
I likely won't convince you on the basis of scripture.
And @Lazarus Short, and others, who share his views, have been shown that numerous times but that particular truth does not fit their agenda.Good. But if the Bible is not sidestepped or dismissed, my explanation must again be taken under consideration.
The weight of Scripture is definitely not on the side of the Universalists. So why is this not taken seriously? The argument I get back is usually, "Oh, that part is a mistranslation, so forget it."
But of course, the rather vague and few verses that Universalists like are not treated in kind.
I would have gone through something of a culture shock if I’d exchanged messages with a beefy argumentative poster like @Saint Steven in my early twenties.Could have blown my misconceptions out of the water.
Are you sure that you want to argue that the Bible is false teaching?
Pardon me, but that is just not true. In the KJV, "hell" is first seen in Deuteronomy 32:22, but the word in Hebrew is "sheol," which is translated as "grave" or "pit" about half the time in the OT. "Hel" and "hell" are not found in the Hebrew or the Greek languages - they came from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The OED places the first use of "hell" in English at about 850 AD, a time when a lot of loan words were coming over from Norse. So we have "hell" in the ordinary KJV, "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV. Further back, in "Beowulf," we have "hel," "hell" and "helle." "Beowulf" points to Denmark, so a look at Norse mythology gives us the goddess/ogress Hel, who ruled over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." The pagan Norse believed that if you did not die in battle and thus lost your ticket to Valhalla, you spent eternity in Helheim.
As for Jesus, He spoke of "hades" and "gehenna," and "hell" was inserted during translation.
I thought this was a blood sport. Perhaps I was mistaken. - lolTrue, and once you become a Christian universalist and are in a playground universalist fight, @Saint Steven suddenly becomes the big boy you're glad to see wading in and sorting all your protagonists out!
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