Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Just like criminals do in this life when they are released from prison.
While I don't know if all will come to Christ, I certainly can see it happening. No one ever came to Christ already clean. They were made clean afterwards.
Please see my post [#4957] above.
Well if you watched the fellow giving his testimony, you would perhaps glean that the 'old man', the murderer, has been utterly destroyed, burned up in the fire, and the new man in Christ has emerged. Of course only God knows for sure in any given case, but you see that's the concept being conveyed - it's the new wine, new life, restored to God's image etc. And that is the function of the LoF - to change hearts and minds. You say that's just my opinion, well I say it's supported by scripture and countless real life testimonies of sometime chiefs of sinners.
I haven't followed the thread closely enough to be sure if you're talking about those who supposedly "convert" after death, but this to me is the absolute in absurdity.You are dancing all around my question with thoughts of sugarplums dancing in your head. When does that marvelous change take place? When and how do people who hate God suddenly turn into God lovers? Or does God override their will and force the change?
“Fullness” has a nice ambiguity about it. Paul says all.Right, but that's not what is being said(nor is it what I said.) What's being said is that there was a hardening of the nation of Israel itself that temporarily separates the covenant people from national Israel but that one day the national Israel and everything within the original covenant promises will be restored. It's almost certain that it is saying some who persist in rejecting the Messiah are only temporarily hardened, but it does not follow that Paul is rescinding his statement that not all Israel is Israel nor that their being re-grafted in is conditional upon repentance simply that the fullness of Israel as a nation will be restored.
When it comes to destruction, I think of how Saul of Tarsus was destroyed, and then restored as Paul the Apostle.
I haven't followed the thread closely enough to be sure if you're talking about those who supposedly "convert" after death, but this to me is the absolute in absurdity.
God creates a reality where evil is allowed virtually free rein, gives humans the free will to make moral judgments and choices, and extends salvation (by His own act of self-sacrifice) to those who turn to Him in the exercise of their free will. The Good, the Evil, the Sacrifice and the Choices in this plan are real, not illusory.
WHAT SENSE ON ANY LEVEL does this plan make if God also extends salvation to those who rejected Him when they actually had free will but "convert" when their free will is overridden by His stark reality and the realization they have made the wrong choice and will be separated for all eternity (or annihilated, as the case may be)?
This is the point to me that transcends everything else: Universalism makes a mockery of the entire plan of salvation.
Oh I am definitely talking about those unbelievers who, according to UR, suddenly turn into "willing" God loving believers once they have been exposed to the "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."I haven't followed the thread closely enough to be sure if you're talking about those who supposedly "convert" after death, but this to me is the absolute in absurdity.
God creates a reality where evil is allowed virtually free rein, gives humans the free will to make moral judgments and choices, and extends salvation (by His own act of self-sacrifice) to those who turn to Him in the exercise of their free will. The Good, the Evil, the Sacrifice and the Choices in this plan are real, not illusory.
WHAT SENSE ON ANY LEVEL does this plan make if God also extends salvation to those who rejected Him when they actually had free will but "convert" when their free will is overridden by His stark reality and the realization they have made the wrong choice and will be separated for all eternity (or annihilated, as the case may be)?
This is the point to me that transcends everything else: Universalism makes a mockery of the entire plan of salvation.
But then Paul very clearly negates that assumed "all."“Fullness” has a nice ambiguity about it. Paul says all.
People being released from prison is the only thing in this life I can find to compare to sinners being released from hell.Bad comparison and almost taunting. Since when did being released from prison change a heart or a mind? Maybe, once in a while.
People being released from prison is the only thing in this life I can find to compare to sinners being released from hell.
And OBTW the recidivism rate for US prison is 60+% But according to URists in this forum there is a 100% rehabilitation rate in hell. Supposedly everybody after spending 30 seconds, 30 minutes, 30 hours etc. in the flames somehow become willing lovers of God.
I know that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and there is nothing impossible to Him. But how and when does this transformation occur? Scripture please?[For them not you.]
Exactly my thoughts about all the UR-ists on this forum. So my posting while directed to those active in this forum, my secondary audience are those who are observers, perhaps thinking about embracing UR or or seeking to leave UR. Either way the seekers can see both sides and can make a more informed decision. And thank you for all your help. I couldn't do it without you.Why should I reply? I have as much chance with you as you think the "lost" have in "hell."
Yes, all Israel that is Israel will be redeemed. But not all Israel is Israel, just as Ishmael and the sons of Keturah are not Abraham's heirs.“Fullness” has a nice ambiguity about it. Paul says all.
Glad you are coming around to my way of thinking. But what I do like is credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence. Not too fond of the unsupported opinions of big name "scholars" e.g. Ilaria Ramelli. If they provide evidence that is another thing.You shouldn't post at all because, "Your biased opinion is meaningless and irrelevant".
He both says that and that all, at least Jews, will be saved. Your have to take both into account.But then Paul very clearly negates that assumed "all."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
OTOH I don't think Israelites who areHe both says that and that all, at least Jews, will be saved. Your have to take both into account.
The easiest on Rom 11:32 is to assume that all still alive at the end will be saved, so that "all Israel" doesn't refer to all who have ever lived. I'm still not sure that's the right answer, but it's at least possible.
If you take what I suggested, Paul thinks there won’t be any by the End, or at least they’ll be repentant. (He can hardly be saying that you have to be perfect to be saved.) I still think that interpretation is questionable, but it’s not impossible.OTOH I don't think Israelites who are
1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunks, 4. effeminate, 5. emulators, 6. envious, 7. extortionists 8. fornicators, 9. haters, 10. heretics 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lascivious 14. murderers, 15. revelers, 16. revilers 17. seditionists, 18. causing strif, 19. thieves, 20. unclean 21. witchcraft. 22. wrathful get a free ride.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?