Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Fervent]

If only Christian Jews are left in Israel, saying that God has a secret plan to save all of Israel makes no sense, because all of Israel is saved by definition.

Right, but that's not what is being said(nor is it what I said.) What's being said is that there was a hardening of the nation of Israel itself that temporarily separates the covenant people from national Israel but that one day the national Israel and everything within the original covenant promises will be restored. It's almost certain that it is saying some who persist in rejecting the Messiah are only temporarily hardened, but it does not follow that Paul is rescinding his statement that not all Israel is Israel nor that their being re-grafted in is conditional upon repentance simply that the fullness of Israel as a nation will be restored.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I just checked every version on my lap top. Hebrew OT, NIV, ISV, JPS, KJV, ASV, Brenton and ESV. The only one which has "allegiance" is the ESV. There is no word for "allegiance" in the Hebrew.

So take it up with the folks at Biblehub, at the link I gave. They list numerous versions there, for you to compare.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Once again unless you have an advanced degree with emphasis on Hebrew your interpretation of the Hebrew OT is meaningless and irrelevant. There is absolutely nothing you can say to change that.

But where IS the passage in the OT that supports the holy and just principle of infinite payback?

I have documented the Jewish belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which they called both sheol and Ge Hinnom, written as hades and Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. This belief existed in Israel before and during the time of Jesus.

So did the belief in mikvaot lavers for ritual purification located at the entrance to the temple, but you don't seem to want to accept the Lake of Fire is one of those.

Jesus never condemned this belief. You can stamp your feet all you want and protest but it is what it is.

Jesus condemned everything about Pharisaic Judaism as devil's spawn. You'd do well to stay away from their evil teachings, der Alte.

 

[Der Alte]

So take it up with the folks at Biblehub, at the link I gave. They list numerous versions there, for you to compare.

Or perhaps you chose a version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It seems to me that God conquesting mankind in that fashion would be like me subduing an ant farm.

Once a person truly sees what God has done for them, they cannot but fall to their knees crying 'Abba, Father!'. All God has to do is open the heart and remove the blinders, so the scales may fall.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Or perhaps you chose a version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions

It doesn't bother me. Again, what else would they swear der Alte - expletives? You tell me.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Jesus condemned everything about Pharisaic Judaism as devil's spawn. You'd do well to stay away from their evil teachings, der Alte.

Wrong! Please show me one vs, 2 or more would be better, where Jesus specifically condemned the then existing Jewish belief in sheol/hades and "Ge Hinnom/Gehenna i.e. hell. Not only did Jesus NOT condemn the belief but what Jesus said about hades and Gehenna mirrored the Jewish belief.

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

 

[Der Alte]

Once a person truly sees what God has done for them, they cannot but fall to their knees crying 'Abba, Father!'. All God has to do is open the heart and remove the blinders, so the scales may fall.

Just like criminals do in this life when they are released from prison.

 

[Der Alte]

It doesn't bother me. Again, what else would they swear der Alte - expletives? You tell me.

I don't have the problem of wresting scripture to make it support assumptions/presuppositions. But I'm guessing a person in that circumstance would say almost anything to get out of it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't have the problem of wresting scripture to make it support assumptions/presuppositions. But I'm guessing a person in that circumstance would say almost anything to get out of it.

You're missing the point of the divine oath. God is promising that the whole world will willingly submit to Him. What is so objectionable about that, it's exactly what God's sovereignty is all about? If you're having a hard time accepting it, let's pray to help your unbelief.

 

[Der Alte]

You're missing the point of the divine oath. God is promising that the whole world will willingly submit to Him. What is so objectionable about that, it's exactly what God's sovereignty is all about? If you're having a hard time accepting it, let's pray to help your unbelief.

You are dancing all around my question with thoughts of sugarplums dancing in your head. When does that marvelous change take place? When and how do people who hate God suddenly turn into God lovers? Or does God override their will and force the change?
Several years ago I was watching a Christmas program on the tube. Some Americans tourists were in Israel around Christmas, they tried to enter one of the "holy" places, I think it was Jesus' tomb or birthplace. A Muslim blocked their way. The lady said "We just want to worship our God." The Muslim said "G*d d*mn your G*d to h*ll." When des that Muslim change into a lover of God?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You are dancing all around my question with thoughts of sugarplums dancing in your head. When does that marvelous change take place? When and how do people who hate God suddenly turn into God lovers? Or does God override their will and force the change?

Revelation 21 onwards. Making all things new, nations and kings of earth repent and come for healing.

Israel around Christmas, they tried to enter one of the "holy" places, I think it was Jesus' tomb or birthplace. A Muslim blocked their way. The lady said "We just want to worship our God." The Muslim said "G*d d*mn your G*d to h*ll." When des that Muslim change into a lover of God?

Well, I just listened to the audiobook of Martin Luther on 'The Jews and their Lies'. Talk about a guy who lost hope in the salvation of the Jews! But again, what is impossible for man is possible for God. Isn't that what we're called to believe, in God's miraculous power to change even the most wicked and corrupt?

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 21 onwards. Making all things new, nations and kings of earth repent and come for healing.

There are no nations, or kings in the grave or hell. That must happen in this life. There ain't nothing but individual dead bodies in the grave/hell. Everyone has the opportunity to repent, in this life.

Well, I just listened to the audiobook of Martin Luther on 'The Jews and their Lies'. Talk about a guy who lost hope in the salvation of the Jews! But again, what is impossible for man is possible for God. Isn't that what we're called to believe, in God's miraculous power to change even the most wicked and corrupt?

Another switcheroo there amigo. And scripture says. There is no work in the grave.

1)John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
2)Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
3)Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
4)Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
5)1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
6)Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
7)Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
8)Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
9)Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
10)JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
11)Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There are no nations, or kings in the grave or hell. That must happen in this life. There ain't nothing but individual dead bodies in the grave/hell. Everyone has the opportunity to repent, in this life.

Jesus raises the dead.

Another switcheroo there amigo. And scripture says. There is no work in the grave.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Jesus still raises the dead. 'Come out, Lazarus!'

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus raises the dead.

Where is that verse where they get the chance to repent?

Jesus still raises the dead. 'Come out, Lazarus!'

No conversion involved, Lazarus was already a believer. Just look at the number of verses you just ignore, to push you false agenda.

 

[ozso]

Revelation 21 onwards. Making all things new, nations and kings of earth repent and come for healing.

Well, I just listened to the audiobook of Martin Luther on 'The Jews and their Lies'. Talk about a guy who lost hope in the salvation of the Jews! But again, what is impossible for man is possible for God. Isn't that what we're called to believe, in God's miraculous power to change even the most wicked and corrupt?

Thousands of hard hearted God hating people have become Christians. I've heard a lot of testimony of those who said they had absolutely no intention of coming to Christ. That if you had told them before their change of heart, that they would one day be in a Church praising the Lord, they would've laughed at you or punched you in the face or maybe even slit your throat.

Doing a cursory search will yield many results. Here's one I skimmed off the top.

Murderer Finds Jesus in Prison

 

[Der Alte]

Thousands of hard hearted God hating people have become Christians. I've heard a lot of testimony of those who said they had absolutely no intention of coming to Christ. That if you had told them before their change of heart, that they would one day be in a Church praising the Lord, they would've laughed at you or punched you in the face or maybe even slit your throat.
Doing a cursory search will yield many results. Here's one I skimmed off the top.
Murderer Finds Jesus in Prison

Yes it does happen, it has happened many times, in this life.
How many examples of; adulterers, covetous, drunkenness, effeminate, emulators, envious, extortioners, fornicators, haters, heretics, homosexuals, idolators, lascivious, murderers, revelers, revilers, seditionists, strife causers, thieves, unclean, witchcraft and wrathful converting after being in fiery "correction" for some period of time?
These are the 22 categories of people of whom Paul said they have no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thousands of hard hearted God hating people have become Christians. I've heard a lot of testimony of those who said they had absolutely no intention of coming to Christ. That if you had told them before their change of heart, that they would one day be in a Church praising the Lord, they would've laughed at you or punched you in the face or maybe even slit your throat.

Doing a cursory search will yield many results. Here's one I skimmed off the top.

Murderer Finds Jesus in Prison

I just love listening to those kinds of testimonies. These are the miraculous proofs that the HS gives us on a daily basis to show the power of God at work in the world, that Jesus is out retrieving lost sheep from the furthest climes and the darkest corners.

And what a powerful testimony, the changes he was able to bring about in many other lives, both in reforming criminals and bringing up 9 stepchildren.

The time will come when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh, the universal Pentecost.

 

[Der Alte]

I just love listening to those kinds of testimonies. These are the miraculous proofs that the HS gives us on a daily basis to show the power of God at work in the world, that Jesus is out retrieving lost sheep from the furthest climes and the darkest corners.
And what a powerful testimony, the changes he was able to bring about in many other lives, both in reforming criminals and bringing up 9 stepchildren.
The time will come when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh, the universal Pentecost.

Please see my post [#4957] above.

 

[ozso]

I just love listening to those kinds of testimonies. These are the miraculous proofs that the HS gives us on a daily basis to show the power of God at work in the world, that Jesus is out retrieving lost sheep from the furthest climes and the darkest corners.

And what a powerful testimony, the changes he was able to bring about in many other lives, both in reforming criminals and bringing up 9 stepchildren.

The time will come when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh, the universal Pentecost.

While I don't know if all will come to Christ, I certainly can see it happening. No one ever came to Christ already clean. They were made clean afterwards.