Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

Awaiting your analysis of post #4496 ...

LOL
As if you could care less what those of my "ilk" think about your posts. I thought it was insulting. How's that?

 

[Saint Steven]

I, alas, have no response short of condescending hubris.

What else would we expect? - lol

 

[Der Alte]

That's the same thing as I see it. The Harrowing of Hell has already been presented to you. I'll ponder those verses.

Sorry this is a discussion forum. I discuss topics here. I don't chase various websites. If you can't bring it here, forget about it. I can't find anything about harrowing hell in my Bible.
Just did a quick google. The harrowing of hell is NOT scriptural.
Prison is never called hell/the grave and hell/the grave/hell is never called prison anywhere in the Bible. That was not part of Jesus' earthly mission. Luke 4:18-19.
If Jesus' preaching in 1 Peter 3:19-20 was for the purpose of saving the dead, it was a dismal failure since only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family, and they were alive not in hell/the grave when they were saved.

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

No love lost there...

Hopefully that is not your substantive response to #4496. You were the one who issued the challenge regarding 1 Corinthians 15:22. "Saint Steven and his ilk" simply means "and those who think as he does." "Ilk" is not a pejorative term, but apparently Der Alte and I can't use any word not found in Miss Muffy's Primer for Toddlers without being deemed highfalutin.

 

[hedrick]

Interesting, because this is the perspective I more typically hear from atheists: Christians are only Christians because they fear Hell. My response is that, in my 52 years of experience as a Christian, this is absolutely not the case. In my experience, "fear of Hell" barely registers on the radar screen of most Christians' motivations for turning to Christ and remaining in the faith.

"Fear of Hell," if genuine, implies some depth of belief in the God of Christianity. "I'll pretend to be a Christian just in case there is a Hell" isn't going to do the job.

Since Hell (whatever that may mean to you) is part of the Gospel message, who cares if this is part of a Christian's motivation? I assume the biblical warnings are there because they are supposed to influence our thinking.

Hell is a secondary issue. Whether a deity exists and, if so, whether He is the God of Christianity, are the central issues. As I suggested above, no one is going to have a genuine concern about Hell unless he or she already has some depth of belief God exists. Whatever coercive force the doctrine of Hell may have, it's hardly in the same category as standing face to face with God.

Signing off ... I really can't keep up the dialogue, and I'm just helping bury my own post about 1 Corinthians 15:22.

As to why it’s there, my assumption has always been that the threats are intended as a kick in the pants for lazy Christians, not a way to scare non Christians into converting.

 

[Der Alte]

Hopefully that is not your substantive response to #4496. You were the one who issued the challenge regarding 1 Corinthians 15:22. "Saint Steven and his ilk" simply means "and those who think as he does." "Ilk" is not a pejorative term, but apparently Der Alte and I can't use any word not found in Miss Muffy's Primer for Toddlers without being deemed highfalutin.

I lean more toward the Dick and Jane reader, "See Spot run. Run Spot run. Run, run, run."
Here is what the ECF say about 1 Cor 15:22

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V Chap. XII
3.This same, therefore, was what the Lord came to quicken, that as in Adam we do all die, as being of an animal nature, in Christ we may all live, as being spiritual, not laying aside God’s handiwork, but the lusts of the flesh, and receiving the Holy Spirit; as the apostle says in the Epistle to the Colossians: “Mortify, therefore, your members which are upon the earth.”
Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V Chap IX
But if we are all so made alive in Christ, as we die in Adam, it follows of necessity that we are made alive in Christ as a bodily substance, since we died in Adam as a bodily substance. The similarity, indeed, is not complete, unless our revival209 in Christ concur in identity of substance with our mortality210 in Adam.
Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh. Chap. XLVIII
For if “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” (1Co_15:22) their vivification in Christ must be in the flesh, since it is in the flesh that arises their death in Adam. “But every man in his own order,” (1Co_15:23) because of course it will be also every man in his own body.
​

 

[Hillsage]

Well, let's see:
I, alas, have no response short of condescending....

I knew we could agree on something, before you left.

 

[hedrick]

I lean more toward the Dick and Jane reader, "See Spot run. Run Spot run. Run, run, run."
Here is what the ECF say about 1 Cor 15:22

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V Chap. XII
3.This same, therefore, was what the Lord came to quicken, that as in Adam we do all die, as being of an animal nature, in Christ we may all live, as being spiritual, not laying aside God’s handiwork, but the lusts of the flesh, and receiving the Holy Spirit; as the apostle says in the Epistle to the Colossians: “Mortify, therefore, your members which are upon the earth.”
Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V Chap IX
But if we are all so made alive in Christ, as we die in Adam, it follows of necessity that we are made alive in Christ as a bodily substance, since we died in Adam as a bodily substance. The similarity, indeed, is not complete, unless our revival209 in Christ concur in identity of substance with our mortality210 in Adam.
Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh. Chap. XLVIII
For if “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” (1Co_15:22) their vivification in Christ must be in the flesh, since it is in the flesh that arises their death in Adam. “But every man in his own order,” (1Co_15:23) because of course it will be also every man in his own body.
​

How do connect that to the current question? They simply repeat all, without saying why it might be limited. Modern exegetes look at the whole argument he is making and observe that it is discussing the resurrection of Christians.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You want an honest answer? I've was a practicing appellate lawyer for almost 40 years. That was an adversarial arena of the highest level where my job was deconstructing other lawyers' arguments and supporting my own with adequate authority. I've made my living writing and editing for 50 years - I was a journalist before I was a lawyer. I know my IQ and my analytical abilities. I'm supremely confident in those abilities. I don't do "false humility." On the other hand, I recognize that forums such as this comprise participants of wildly different levels of intelligence, emotional maturity, analytical and communication skills, education and all the rest. I try to deal in matters of substance and accept people as they are.

You're probably right, UR is utter foolishness and childishness to the prudent and the wise, it's downright offensive to the diligent and distinguishing mind. The thought that God might actually be minded to set a table for his enemies, even to give his life for those who spit on him...and what about those of us who've laboured all the livelong day, to share our portion with the latecomers? Harrumph. No, it's 'One penny over - bliss; one penny under - misery', that's the way God works, He keepeth the clean books.

Sir, did you ever receive the baptism of fire and the Spirit? God can change hearts and minds in a moment, He is just that good. And what's it to you if He wishes to issue a total recall on defective product under a full repair and replace warranty? All distressed chattels recovered, redeemed and restored for full value (shipping costs included).

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:22-3,reiterated in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10)

Forget the wisdom of the world, it's folly and idolatry. He who thinks himself something, when really he is nothing, he deceives himself. Just let God be true.

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

LOL
As if you could care less what those of my "ilk" think about your posts. I thought it was insulting. How's that?

Post #4496 was specifically stated to be a response to your challenge to me regarding 1 Corinthians 15:22, and it addresses multiple points and verses that expose your reliance on 15:22 as nonsense.

But you found it "insulting." Uh-huh. There is nothing in post #4496 even vaguely insulting. Are you perhaps familiar with the phrase "All hat and no cattle"?

The fact is, after issuing the challenge you can't deal substantively with the response. If you're intellectually capable of doing so, let's see your best work - I'm challenging you.

I thought kicking butts came first. As in...
Kicking butts and taking names. - lol

Oh, yeah, you're kickin' butt and takin' names with your inane one-liners, tough guy. In your dreams, as the saying goes.

If I said something that silly, that lacking in "Christian love and fellowship," the universalist peanut gallery would be howling in protest.

Let's see some substance, if you have it. Let's see you address, without inane non sequiturs, the substance of what is set forth in post #4496 regarding 1 Corinthians 15:22.

 

[Saint Steven]

Post #4496 was specifically stated to be a response to your challenge to me regarding 1 Corinthians 15:22, and it addresses multiple points and verses that expose your reliance on 15:22 as nonsense.

If you are trying to convince me that my loving heavenly father is a cosmic tyrant (akin to a pagan volcano god) that predestined the vast majority of humankind to burn in eternal torment with no hope of escape, don't waste your time or mine. Thanks.

I haven't read your post and don't plan to. Goodbye.

 

[Hillsage]

From our perspective, we who receive Him are born again. This is also plainly stated in the first Altar call (Acts 2:36-41).

I agree with that scripture John, and I believe it agrees with the principles I've already shared;

ACT 2:37 Now when they HEARD this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

"FAITH comes from hearing/"heard" and 'hearing' comes from the spoken WORD/RHEMA of God. Not the written/manifested LOGOS/word. The two edged WORD/RHEMA sword cuts to the heart of sinner or disciple. (Luk 24:32)

MAT 4:4 But he answered, "It is written (bible), 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds (spoken) from the mouth of God."

proceeds is 'present tense' in the Greek.

I bowed my knee when The Holy Spirit of GOD "convicted me of sin and righteousness and judgement." (Joh 16:8)

And never once, did I bow, at the 'hellish' good preaching words, spoken by so many religious preachers before. It was my night to be born again of His will, His works and His effort....just like any spiritual fetus...or, true to the parable, that of a fleshly human. Excepting for changing the His" to "her" in my last sentence above.

My confession is; Thank you heavenly Father for the rebirth of my spirit which was originally born of your Holy Spirit. And thank you mom, for your "will, works, effort" for me to be born of the flesh.

It is the will of God for all to be saved per 1 Timothy 2:1-6. You don't have to be your own worst enemy.

We agree; "WILL" not 'wish'. And His will trumped my will.

Also from Timothy;
1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Know what the word "especially" means? To the GREATEST DEGREE he is Savior. Not to the 'least degree' which are all those out or IN the church. Sitting on their seat of assurance. Just saying. Night John. I'm done.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Most of your "message" statements don't follow from the text, and more than a few are contradicted when the quotes are taken with the whole pericope considered. For example, your first one is not within the text at all with Jesus' statements being directed only at His disciples and telling them not to fear those who would persecute them because the alternative to dying of persecution was rejecting the truth and subjecting themselves to the death of their souls. It in no way offers correction to the traditional views of hell but instead treats the fear of hell as a real danger that is worth accepting an unjust death penalty to avoid.

So 2 sparrows sell for more? Guess I'm not keeping up with inflation. Perhaps we need to get our Abrahams on and bargain down on that bird.

Yes, Jesus is warning the disciples about Gehenna fire, it's no joke. But he's clearly teaching them to not be terrified. The teaching is about recognising God's paramountcy, His sovereignty over all things visible and invisible. He says nothing about eternal torment, and is quick to clarify that God is a loving God.

So are you saying that anyone who has thought scornfully or spoken in anger to a brother is hell-bound, all over, unforgiven, hopeless and cactus? And where does the fine line lie between an offense punishable by the Council and eternal hellfire? Kind of significant escalation in penalty from the 'Raca!' and 'Thou fool!' statements, isn't it? Couldn't God have scaled it a bit more proportionately? I mean, condign justice and all that...

Come on man, it's clear that Jesus is giving Gehenna a certain treatment, true he doesn't deny it exists or it can result in destruction of the soul, but he's hinting here that it serves a different purpose, which would be in line with the 'Refiner's fire' paradigm, if you will. He redeems Gehenna from its abuse by the corrupt politicians and a means of control and spiritual terrorism. As history has shown, the devil and fallen man (and greedy churches) just didn't want to let it go.

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

If you are trying to convince me that my loving heavenly father is a cosmic tyrant (akin to a pagan volcano god) that predestined the vast majority of humankind to burn in eternal torment with no hope of escape, don't waste your time or mine. Thanks.

I haven't read your post and don't plan to. Goodbye.

Uh, you quoted from my post that you haven't read and don't plan to.

You're the one who challenged me to explain 1 Corinthians 15:22, but now you're going to run and hide. Is this your idea of "kicking butt and taking names" or is it perhaps a tacit admission your own fanny is bruised?

As we lawyers say, "I rest my case."

 

[Der Alte]

How do connect that to the current question? They simply repeat all, without saying why it might be limited. Modern exegetes look at the whole argument he is making and observe that it is discussing the resurrection of Christians.

I firmly believe that 1 Corinthians 15:22 refers to those that are "in Christ," in this lifetime, not that all will be become "in Christ" at the moment of salvation as UR-ists claim. That vs. is cited frequently by UR-ists as a UR proof text.

 

[Fervent]

So 2 sparrows sell for more? Guess I'm not keeping up with inflation. Perhaps we need to get our Abrahams on and bargain down on that bird.

Yes, Jesus is warning the disciples about Gehenna fire, it's no joke. But he's clearly teaching them to not be terrified. The teaching is about recognising God's paramountcy, His sovereignty over all things visible and invisible. He says nothing about eternal torment, and is quick to clarify that God is a loving God.

So are you saying that anyone who has thought scornfully or spoken in anger to a brother is hell-bound, all over, unforgiven, hopeless and cactus? And where does the fine line lie between an offense punishable by the Council and eternal hellfire? Kind of significant escalation in penalty from the 'Raca!' and 'Thou fool!' statements, isn't it? Couldn't God have scaled it a bit more proportionately? I mean, condign justice and all that...

Come on man, it's clear that Jesus is giving Gehenna a certain treatment, true he doesn't deny it exists or it can result in destruction of the soul, but he's hinting here that it serves a different purpose, which would be in line with the 'Refiner's fire' paradigm, if you will. He redeems Gehenna from its abuse by the corrupt politicians and a means of control and spiritual terrorism. As history has shown, the devil and fallen man (and greedy churches) just didn't want to let it go.

He's telling them not to be terrified, yes, but it is the coming persecution they are not to be scared of. The full message is that what seems like an out from temporary persecution is actually not because of the eternal consequences that come with it, so rather than fearing men who can(and will) kill their bodies if they must be afraid then God is who they should be afraid of. There need be no mention of eternal punishment because it is understood by the threat of the one who can kill body and soul. There is no indication that it "serves a different purpose" since the contextual use of the notion requires it be taken straight, otherwise there is no reason to fear God more than men since apparently God is toothless(according to your view) but men will viciously take and murder those who oppose them.

 

[ozso]

I don't recall using any pejorative epithets. Do you know what an aorist and a hitpael is?

What really matters is that you do.

 

[Der Alte]

What really matters is that you do.

Since Reagan was POTUS but that doesn't help you.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There is no indication that it "serves a different purpose" since the contextual use of the notion requires it be taken straight,

So why does Jesus tell them straight about the sparrows and say 'Fear not'? He's clearly starting with the common view of Gehenna (note that 'destroy body and soul' is more annihiliationist than damnationist) and then taking it somewhere (God values you too highly to do that). He goes on to say all will be forgiven but blasphemy of the HS, which presumably will result in a stint at the Gehenna re-education camp.

apparently God is toothless(according to your view) but men will viciously take and murder those who oppose them.

How is God toothless in my view? He chooses to save. To just dismissively and negligently cast off would be the easy option. Salvation is Jesus' explicit mission (it's in the name), and in the Son we see the Father. I don't see anything toothless about the Omega plan.

 

[Fervent]

How do connect that to the current question? They simply repeat all, without saying why it might be limited. Modern exegetes look at the whole argument he is making and observe that it is discussing the resurrection of Christians.

I'll make explicit what is implicit in both of those commentaries: they're looking at the verse as an issue of federal headship. Irenaeus' statements render the difference as one of kind, with Adam speaking of those born of the flesh and Christ referring to those born anew in the Spirit. Given the broader teaching of Christianity being born after the flesh and being born in Spirit are not one and the same, so the two groups are being presented independent of each other. Tertullian is speaking of the manner in which we are made alive again, speaking of the fact that since Christ was made alive in a type of flesh so too will those who follow be made alive again in a flesh body. Now, Tertullian's statements may allow for rescuing a universalist reading if taken on their own but it is very doubtful he had any sort of universalist inkling in his comments given his extensive writings on damnation of the wicked. In either case, though, the central point is the headship of Christ or Adam which implies the two groups are not carrying the same reference, so "all" is limited by the prepositions.