Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

As for the 'overwhelming scriptural' support, that's a new one, too.

From their testimonies, it is to most universalists too until they look into it.

 

[Albion]

What makes you think you know what most universalists believe? There has been a variety of versions of the universalist idea expressed on just this thread and a number of different reasons given for believing in one or another of them.

 

[Hmm]

What makes you think you know what most universalists believe?

My goodness. I can't even refer to testimonies I've read now without you accusing me of claiming to "know what most universalists believe"? Puzzling.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Well, if the question is "What keeps people back from universalism?" (which it is), referring the question to the testimony of Scripture is entirely appropriate and, indeed, necessary.

That's because the great majority of Christians, those who are believers in the authority of the Bible and who reject universalism, are "kept back" from universalism by the testimony of the word of God in Scripture. It's no more confounding than that.

I may as well discuss with a wall. You dismiss two years of intense study with a wave of your hand. Why? Do you really think I am not sincere?

 

[Andrewn]

That is an opposing interpretation I agree. It does, though, sound strained to me because has to assume the existence of an everlasting hell to give it the meaning he does. The universalist position would be that some and perhaps many will have to undergo a probably long (but finite) duration of painful correction in "hell" before they can be made alive/saved.

The main reason I quoted Chrysostom is because of his view that _not_ all people died in Adam. This is in contrast to the Western view (Catholics / Protestants / Fundamentalists) that all people died in Adam because of inherited sin / total depravity / sinful nature.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Luk 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.’”

I'll take that as a "no." Your loss.

 

[Hmm]

The main reason I quoted Chrysostom is because of his view that _not_ all people died in Adam. This is in contrast to the Western view (Catholic & Protestant) that all people died in Adam because of inherited sin / total depravity.

Oh, sorry, I totally misunderstood you then! I didn't know he thought that and I used to attend an Anglo-Catholic church called St. Chrysostom's as well!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Reference has been made in the thread in the last page or two about "overwhelming scriptural support" - as I said, I tried to avoid bias, and found this:

Universalism - As a theory, it was the woof and warp of the text. I tried to use discernment and common sense, plus helps from a few sources - the OED, Strong's, Young's and Biblehub. Even in the KJV I was able to see the salvation of all (remember those 77 UR-friendly verses), and partly because of...

...Damnationism - I ran into problems with all the standard ECT texts, that is IF I dug under the surface, especially with interlinear versions, which showed up translation problems, especially with the Greek. What can I say? I might have accepted damnationism except for the obvious cheating and tweaking. Someone is going to answer to God someday for those changes. In case you think I'm talking thru my hat, let me give an example. "Sheol" in the OT is rendered in the KJV as "grave" or "pit" about half the time...and as "hell" about half the time. Examining the verses, I found that usually, but not always, when the verse was tied to the real world, then "sheol" was rendered as "grave/pit." OTOH, when the verse lacked real world underpinnings, it got to be "hell." If you're interested, I can easily supply a fuller treatment. Moving on...

Annihilation - honestly, there were some texts to lean toward this outcome, but not much. Sorry folks.

All in all, I realized that it was easier to interpret the standard ECT texts through a UR lens than to interpret any UR texts through an ECT lens. Having couched these three as theories, I concluded that UR was the clear winner, says this ex-damnationist.

 

[Hmm]

Reference has been made in the thread in the last page or two about "overwhelming scriptural support" - as I said, I tried to avoid bias, and found this:

Universalism - As a theory, it was the woof and warp of the text. I tried to use discernment and common sense, plus helps from a few sources - the OED, Strong's, Young's and Biblehub. Even in the KJV I was able to see the salvation of all (remember those 77 UR-friendly verses), and partly because of...

...Damnationism - I ran into problems with all the standard ECT texts, that is IF I dug under the surface, especially with interlinear versions, which showed up translation problems, especially with the Greek. What can I say? I might have accepted damnationism except for the obvious cheating and tweaking. Someone is going to answer to God someday for those changes. In case you think I'm talking thru my hat, let me give an example. "Sheol" in the OT is rendered in the KJV as "grave" or "pit" about half the time...and as "hell" about half the time. Examining the verses, I found that usually, but not always, when the verse was tied to the real world, then "sheol" was rendered as "grave/pit." OTOH, when the verse lacked real world underpinnings, it got to be "hell." If you're interested, I can easily supply a fuller treatment. Moving on...

Annihilation - honestly, there were some texts to lean toward this outcome, but not much. Sorry folks.

All in all, I realized that it was easier to interpret the standard ECT texts through a UR lens than to interpret any UR texts through an ECT lens. Having couched these three as theories, I concluded that UR was the clear winner, says this ex-damnationist.

Interesting testimony (dare I say it!)

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, we do.
Even if you have Augustine right, you nor any of the rest of us can defend a doctrine like this on the basis of what ANY lone voice from the past had to say. What if I produced a different saint who said there was a Hell awaiting non-believers? Would you then feel compelled to say "That settles it?" I think not.

Well, yes, we know that there were some. You say you aren't wedded to the idea of Universalism, but you do seem to be embracing it simply because you like the idea, and that's evidenced by your attempt to pass off the slimmest of evidence--not proof, but evidence--as being definitive.

"LONE VOICE" you say Albion? This has been posted a hundred times by me in the past. No takers refuting it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist,
one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded
by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The LONE SCHOOL of eternal torture, mentioned above, was in ROME, and the church of ROME martyred those heretics who disagreed with 'The Church'. And it ruled roughshod over people for a 1,000 years until that HERETIC (their opinion) Luther challenged 'some' changes, but not nearly enough. He would have been smarter to dump hell and keep purgatory IMO.

As for Augustine's support of the Greek word AION being interpreted as ETERNAL instead of an AGE, as Young's Literal Translation of the bible literally and correctly interprets it????

As to Augustine's GREEK authority to determine that AION should be translated as eternity, there are simply weak points. As a ROMAN CATHOLIC...LATIN was Augustine's area of language expertise. My studies convinced me that his 'decreed' Greek defining of AION, as ETERNITY and not AGE, was denominational-ism motivated, and not scholastically.

 

[Der Alte]

That is an opposing interpretation I agree. It does, though, sound strained to me because has to assume the existence of an everlasting hell to give it the meaning he does. The universalist position would be that some and perhaps many will have to undergo a probably long (but finite) duration of painful correction in "hell" before they can be made alive/saved.

I assume the existence of an everlasting hell because in Israel before the time of Jesus ca. 7th century BC and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting, unending fiery punishment which the Jews called both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" which were interpreted as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225BC LXX and the NT.

No, I'm just saying that I agree with what was probably the majority view, apokatastasis, meaning universal reconstitution/restitution, held by the early church. I agree, that's not proof of validity by certainly shows that it is not heretical. The church, for example, has never condemned Gregory of Nyssa's universalist views.

...But for the fact the ONLY "evidence" for "the majority view, apokatastasis" is a quote from the Schaff, Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge with no zero support of any kind. But which UR-ites accept as gospel.

 

[Der Alte]

Reference has been made in the thread in the last page or two about "overwhelming scriptural support" - as I said, I tried to avoid bias, and found this:
Universalism - As a theory, it was the woof and warp of the text. I tried to use discernment and common sense, plus helps from a few sources - the OED, Strong's, Young's and Biblehub. Even in the KJV I was able to see the salvation of all (remember those 77 UR-friendly verses), and partly because of...
...Damnationism - I ran into problems with all the standard ECT texts, that is IF I dug under the surface, especially with interlinear versions, which showed up translation problems, especially with the Greek. What can I say? I might have accepted damnationism except for the obvious cheating and tweaking. Someone is going to answer to God someday for those changes. In case you think I'm talking thru my hat, let me give an example. "Sheol" in the OT is rendered in the KJV as "grave" or "pit" about half the time...and as "hell" about half the time. Examining the verses, I found that usually, but not always, when the verse was tied to the real world, then "sheol" was rendered as "grave/pit." OTOH, when the verse lacked real world underpinnings, it got to be "hell." If you're interested, I can easily supply a fuller treatment. Moving on...
Annihilation - honestly, there were some texts to lean toward this outcome, but not much. Sorry folks.
All in all, I realized that it was easier to interpret the standard ECT texts through a UR lens than to interpret any UR texts through an ECT lens. Having couched these three as theories, I concluded that UR was the clear winner, says this ex-damnationist.

And such will be your "conclusions" or should I say assumptions/presuppositions if you only read websites, reports etc. which are slanted toward UR.
What did the Jews believe in Israel before and during the time of Jesus?
…..The below quotes document the existence of the beliefs and practices of Jews concerning Hell. According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not alter or disprove anything in the following post.

[1] Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2] Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3] Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Hmm]

But for the fact the ONLY "evidence" for "the majority view, apokatastasis" is a quote from the Schaff, Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge with no zero support of any kind. But which UR-ites accept as gospel.

That's a very bold claim. To say that is the ONLY source, you would have had to have read every single paper that has ever been written on the subject. I'm not saying you haven't but... have you?

 

[Der Alte]

That's a very bold claim. To say that is the ONLY source, you would have had to have read every single paper that has ever been written on the subject. I'm not saying you haven't but... have you?

I made no such claim. But I do make this claim I have been active on this forum for more than 2 decades. Thus I have been reading UR posts that long. The only "evidence" for the argument that the majority of the early churches were UR or words to that effect that I have ever seen is the quote from Schaff. I have read the article and no historical evidence is provided.

 

[Hillsage]

WHAT DOES "IN CHRIST" MEAN - 1 CORINTHIANS 15:22?

1 Corinthians 15:22 does not support Universalism at all. The key phrase "in Christ" is being ignored. Only those "in Christ" shall be made alive

1 Corinthians 15:22 [22], For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Romans 6:3-6 [3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:10-11 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

Galatians 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Colossians 2:6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk you in him

.................

There is too many more scripture references that can be added here that are not included that you can look up for your self if you do a phrase passing on "in Christ". We might stop here. "In Christ" in every scripture reference is referring to those who are believers not those who are unbelievers and not the wicked who reject and are not in Christ. Therefore 1 Corinthians 15:22 is simply saying all in Christ will be given eternal life. That is all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Hope this is helpful

Actually it wasn't helpful. Not speaking to you, but it does sound like something that could be written by those who would pat their flesh on the back for writing something approved by those just as 'indoctrinated' as themselves, though.

COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16 for IN HIM/'CHRIST' all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him.
COL 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

So, according to scripture: IN HIM/in Christ, all things were created by and for Him. And, 'by the cross' all things HAVE BEEN reconciled to Christ who was hidden IN GOD.

EPH 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Those still "hid in God" from the ages before the cross to the "ages after the cross" WILL be reconciled to God, even as God has ALREADY reconciled Himself to them, by the cross. God doesn't have a sin problem with anyone ETERNALLY. Jesus paid that ETERNAL price for all. It is simply a question as to when 'YOUR TURN, TO TURN' will come. Some bow the knee here, most don't. But this is a fact; "EVERY knee SHALL BOW and every tongue SHALL CONFESS to the glory of God." and not to His shame for letting Satan win almost ALL. How stupid is omniscience, if such a thing ever happened?

JOB 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my release should come. 15 Thou wouldest call, and I would answer thee; thou wouldest long for the work of thy hands.

If HE fails to save "IN HIM ALL" that was created for HIM, then he was never Saviour of all, at all. Therein is the lie of the church whose theological roots are claimed to go all the way back to Peter is producing the same fruit in all her descendants. Mine roots go back farther, to CHRIST.

The 'Mystery hid 'in Christ' 'in God' is still hid to most.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Actually it wasn't helpful. Not speaking to you, but it does sound like something that could be written by those who would pat their flesh on the back for writing something approved by those just as 'indoctrinated' as themselves, though.

COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16 for IN HIM/'CHRIST' all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him.
COL 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

So, according to scripture: IN HIM/in Christ, all things were created by and for Him. And, 'by the cross' all things HAVE BEEN reconciled to Christ who was hidden IN GOD.

EPH 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Those still "hid in God" from the ages before the cross to the "ages after the cross" WILL be reconciled to God, even as God has ALREADY reconciled Himself to them, by the cross. God doesn't have a sin problem with anyone ETERNALLY. Jesus paid that ETERNAL price for all. It is simply a question as to when 'YOUR TURN, TO TURN' will come. Some bow the knee here, most don't. But this is a fact; "EVERY knee SHALL BOW and every tongue SHALL CONFESS to the glory of God." and not to His shame for letting Satan win almost ALL. How stupid is omniscience, if such a thing ever happened?

JOB 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my release should come. 15 Thou wouldest call, and I would answer thee; thou wouldest long for the work of thy hands.

If HE fails to save "IN HIM ALL" that was created for HIM, then he was never Saviour of all, at all. Therein is the lie of the church whose theological roots are claimed to go all the way back to Peter is producing the same fruit in all her descendants. Mine roots go back farther, to CHRIST.

The 'Mystery hid 'in Christ' 'in God' is still hid to most.

Your post makes no sense to what you are quoting from and your quoting different scripture not relevant to the context of 1 Corinthians 15:22. Perhaps next time it might be best to read what your responding to before posting. "In Christ" in context to 1 Corinthians 15:22 from post # 271 linked is to those who have accepted Christ (believers) not those who have not accepted Christ (unbelievers and the wicked).

Take Care

 

[Albion]

My goodness. I can't even refer to testimonies I've read now without you accusing me of claiming to "know what most universalists believe"? Puzzling.

I didn't "claim" anything. I asked a question in response to some information you volunteered.

 

[ozso]

This is just a footnote, but on that last point, I don't believe most annihilationists do believe that there's no life after death.

As some have explained here, they think that the lake of fire awaits some of us, but that's what happens to them in the spirit world.

Okay in all fairness in annihilationism (as I understand it) there's life after death for the wicked long enough for them to be judged and then permanently blotted out of existence. Then added to interim is if the annihilationist believes in soul sleep or not. But the only reason why I brought up annihilationism, is because it was one so-called heresy being used to debunk another so-called heresy.

 

[ozso]

Actual start date is not my point, 1274 as not being its start date is my point.

I was just wondering if you knew because I was curious.

 

[Clare73]

I was just wondering if you knew because I was curious.

Sorry, I really don't know.