Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

And yet you defend it. . .

I defend it as the Christian Universalist position, not as my belief.

 

[Clare73]

Just to be clear, I do not subscribe to the RCC doctrine of Purgatory. Just remember that
our Lord Jesus stated that we would all be salted with fire.

Salted with the fire of refining, in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the fire of Gehenna, making Gehenna not the fire of refining with which we are salted.

 

[Clare73]

I defend it as the Christian Universalist position, not as my belief.

And I was under the impression that you believed it. . .interesting.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

It's not "my" belief. It's the universalist position that has been held since Paul and the early church and is a growing tradition now.

I agree, it isn't complicated. God loves all his children, wants to be reconciled to them all and being God, he is going to bring that about. That's supposed to be Good News not Bad News so let's have some universalist cheer here

If someone can produce a clear and lucid passage stating this teaching, I'm all in.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Salted with the fire of refining, in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the fire of Gehenna, making Gehenna not the fire of refining with which we are salted.

I did not say it was.

 

[Lazarus Short]

If someone can produce a clear and lucid passage stating this teaching, I'm all in.

I suppose I could copy & paste my book manuscript here, but it would be difficult on a forum such as this, given its sheer length. Would you interested in my condensed conclusions?

 

[ozso]

It was made official doctrine in 1274, it was believed for many centuries prior to that.

Based on the info I have, universalism was outright taught for the first four centuries. Which would mean it has a first century start date. What was the start date for purgatory?

 

[Albion]

Actually purgatory didn't became a Roman Catholic doctrine until 1274 at the Second Council of Lyon. So if anything purgatory is a repackaging of universalism. No disrespect intended, but I think if you want to be a fighter of the truth, you should endeavor to get the facts straight.

Let's set straight one thing about this that seems to have caused some concern. It is probably right to say that most Universalists contemplate something like a Purgatory.

That's because they are not willing to say that every last person advances to Heaven at the same time and under the same terms. Those who need some "retooling" will take longer than those who were saintly on Earth. But all will make it, so this is Universal Salvation.

But when we start saying that this is identical to the Catholic notion of Purgatory, that's a mistake.

According to church teachings, Purgatory exists in order to prepare those souls who are destined for Heaven while others don't go to Purgatory, but are sent straight to Hell.

So Purgatory -- the actual doctrine -- is not what Universalists have in mind since it leaves out those souls who are not "eligible" for Purgatory (and, ultimately, Heaven).

 

[ozso]

Not according to the whole NT counsel of God.

Care to narrow that down some?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If this doesn't settle the "Jesus talks more about hell" or that a hell and its torment's exists -argument- I'm not sure what will.

Luke 16:19-31
King James Version
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of tor29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[ozso]

Fact is...its now in Universalism.
Thanks for engaging!

Zing!

 

[ozso]

Let's set straight one thing about this that seems to have caused some concern. It is probably right to say that most Universalists contemplate something like a Purgatory.

That's because they are not willing to say that every last person advances to Heaven at the same time and under the same terms. Those who need some "retooling" will take longer than those who were saintly on Earth. But all will make it, so this is Universal Salvation.

But when we start saying that this is identical to the Catholic notion of Purgatory, that's a mistake.

According to church teachings, Purgatory exists in order to prepare those souls who are destined for Heaven while others don't go to Purgatory, but are sent straight to Hell.

So Purgatory -- the actual doctrine -- is not what Universalists have in mind since it leaves out those souls who are not "eligible" for Purgatory (and, ultimately, Heaven).

So the chicken and egg thingy is irrelevant.

 

[Hmm]

And I was under the impression that you believed it. . .interesting.

I do, but I'm not defending it for that reason - my understanding of it is not perfect. So, to be clear, I'm defending the Universalist tradition that stretches back to the Apostolic age, not my imperfect understanding of it.

 

[ozso]

If this doesn't settle the "Jesus talks more about hell" or that a hell and its torment's exists -argument- I'm not sure what will.

Luke 16:19-31
King James Version
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of tor29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You should read some breakdowns of that parable. I found them to be quite enlightening.

 

[Hmm]

If someone can produce a clear and lucid passage stating this teaching, I'm all in.

Your wish is my command:
https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

 

[Albion]

I do, but I'm not defending it for that reason - my understanding of it is not perfect. So, to be clear, I'm defending the Universalist tradition that stretches back to the Apostolic age, not my imperfect understanding of it.

But you know that there were all sorts of ideas floating around during the first several centuries of the Christian era--Gnosticism, the Judaizers, and so on. Universalism had some following too, but it was never the norm and was rejected by the Church just like all the other aberrant theories.

So if the "track record" (my term) is the main justification for your fondness towards Universalism, isn't the track record for this one lacking in everything that matters...except that it is an old notion? What's more, there is no "stretching back" to the Apostolic era (your term). After a few centuries, Universalism ceased to have a following in the Church until it was resurrected in quite recent times and has never attracted, even now, much of a following.

 

[ozso]

But you know that there were all sorts of ideas floating around during the first several centuries of the Christian era--Gnosticism, the Judaizers, and so on. Universalism had some following too, but it was never the norm and was rejected by the Church just like all the other aberrant theories.

So if the "track record" (my term) is the main justification for your fondness towards Universalism, isn't the track record for this one lacking in everything that matters...except that it is an old notion? What's more, there is no "stretching back" to the Apostolic era (your term). After a few centuries, Universalism ceased to have a following in the Church until it was resurrected in quite recent times and has never attracted, even now, much of a following.

What do you think of:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known." - The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96.

 

[Lazarus Short]

If this doesn't settle the "Jesus talks more about hell" or that a hell and its torment's exists -argument- I'm not sure what will.

Luke 16:19-31
King James Version
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of tor29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That parable is easily interpretable as a prophecy of the soon-coming demise of the Judean nation. Why is so much in the NT bent to support the doctrine of "hell"?

 

[Albion]

Based on the info I have, universalism was outright taught for the first four centuries. Which would mean it has a first century start date. What was the start date for purgatory?

Clare probably has her own answer, but there is no start date for Purgatory that precedes the Middle Ages.

All attempts to show an earlier start-up depend on making a word or two here or there in Scripture, or a verse in the Apocrypha that doesn't exactly say there was any belief in a Purgatory anyway, become the "proof."

 

[Albion]

What do you think of:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known." - The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96.

Yes, this is generally acknowledged, but nothing about several schools refutes what I pointed to in the previous post.