Christian, read it and weep............

[rambot]

327,166 abortions and 2197 adoption referrals...

And there is still a shortage of foster placements. If every pro-life person was willing to take in an adoption, I'd feel like they really, truly meant what they said.

 

[pat34lee]

Sounds like an organism. What makes it a " being" as such? Essentially, what about the properties you just listed makes something inherently "special"?

Special - Because it isn't just any organism, but man, created by the hand of God.

 

[pat34lee]

And there is still a shortage of foster placements. If every pro-life person was willing to take in an adoption, I'd feel like they really, truly meant what they said.

If people would treat abortion as murder instead of contraception, there would be few to no abortions just for convenience' sake.

 

[pat34lee]

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else, but haven't I seen you make financial savings arguments in favour of the death penalty?

Possibly, but that isn't a great argument for it. I would rather argue for because
1. it is necessary due to the nature of some crimes.

2. as a deterrent to future criminals, which has been mostly nullified by long waits and closing executions to the public.

3. life in prison is just a salve to the conscience of pacifists. They still die in custody as a convicted felon, just not at a set time.

Mostly because they deserve to be killed, and some deserve to die slowly and in great pain. Being humane isn't for their sake though.

 

[Winken]

And there is still a shortage of foster placements. If every pro-life person was willing to take in an adoption, I'd feel like they really, truly meant what they said.

Right. Let every pro-life person line up in the foster parent line, regardless of income, savings, home environment, neighborhood........

 

[redleghunter]

And there is still a shortage of foster placements. If every pro-life person was willing to take in an adoption, I'd feel like they really, truly meant what they said.

Placing blame in the wrong area is what you mean.

Of course to make such a claim you would need complete knowledge of all pro life people.

Why don't we deal with what we do know. Pro Life Christians are the most giving of money, time and resources of all Christians. Here's why.

Christian Pregnancy Services and After Care:

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women

That should answer the usual red herring comment we get of "you are pro birth and not pro life."

And before the usual red herring of "yeah what about pro life for the already born and suffering of the world?"

Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:


Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

Again the above is a small sampling. Any Google search will show multiple pages.

 

[Winken]

Placing blame in the wrong area is what you mean.

Of course to make such a claim you would need complete knowledge of all pro life people.

Why don't we deal with what we do know. Pro Life Christians are the most giving of money, time and resources of all Christians. Here's why.

Christian Pregnancy Services and After Care:

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women

That should answer the usual red herring comment we get of "you are pro birth and not pro life."

And before the usual red herring of "yeah what about pro life for the already born and suffering of the world?"

Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:


Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

Again the above is a small sampling. Any Google search will show multiple pages.

You, my Brother, have blessed me and this topic beyond measure!! Thank You!! Past my bedtime. G'Nite, God's abundant blessings upon thee and thy house.

 

[Armoured]

Special - Because it isn't just any organism, but man, created by the hand of God.

Prove it. To a standard demonstrable for secular legal purposes.

 

[rambot]

Placing blame in the wrong area is what you mean.

Of course to make such a claim you would need complete knowledge of all pro life people.

I'm not actually placing blame at all; I am counting for consistency in what they try to maintain is "compassion for the baby" which seems to completely dissipate when the child gets to a certain age.

I think you may need to read what I wrote a little closer. I certainly made no claim that all pro life people are like that.

Why don't we deal with what we do know. Pro Life Christians are the most giving of money, time and resources of all Christians. Here's why.

Statistics to bolster this claim?

Christian Pregnancy Services and After Care:

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

1)You think "after care" services extend through the life of a child redleghunter? You have a child for longer than 1 year. Anti-safe abortion providers so frequently forget that babies are around longer than a year and many of those families would need support for much longer than that. So to argue "look how well we are supporting new parents" really doesn't take the place of caring and providing LOVE and ATTACTMENT throughout the whole child's life and equating them is totally disingenuous in my mind.
2) To an extent, your argument here bolsters my point. My argument was about ADOPTION as a viable option for unwanted babies. YOU are talking about wanted babies getting more support. And while that's great, for the sake of our talking points that's like comparing mandarin oranges and grapefruits

That should answer the usual red herring comment we get of "you are pro birth and not pro life."

How can it be a red herring if it's true?

And before the usual red herring of "yeah what about pro life for the already born and suffering of the world?"

Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:


Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

Again the above is a small sampling. Any Google search will show multiple pages.

I know full well about the existence of numerous christian aid organizations around the world which provide subsistence to the poor.
But, and this is a big but, that, in no way, answers the point.
1) Despite the good work being done, it is insufficient. What aggrevates me is when Christians seem to think"Well, I donated to these organizations, so it is no longer a problem". Your donations only keep the problem from getting bigger. Donating to these organizations is wonderful and please don't stop. But don't be so misguided into thinking that your donations are solving the problem. The problem still exists. Your 100$ donation to the food bank will help out a family of 5 for half a month maybe, but it doesn't take ALL the hunger in your home town away.


2) The argument comes down to equating the raising of a child down to simply fiduciary requirements. That is to say, if you have money, you can raise a child. "I donate money, therefore I am helping unwanted children".
Talk about a missed message.
Unwanted children need to feel wanted. Having parents that don't want them and remind them of that, sometimes verbally, but every day in their neglect and/or ambivalence to their existence, is NOT replaced by making sure those kids had at least one square solid meal a day. If Christian pro-lifers insist on maintaining that label, then I would suggest they start showing love to the unwanted babies that ALREADY exist in the system and give those poor unwanted babies a LIFE full of love.

And that is why I'd rather see more pro-life people adopting. There are several pro-life people in my church who have adopted several kids. I disagree with them vehemently but man oh man do I respect the fact that they LIVE and LOVE that ideal instead of simply holding someone in contempt without trying to use the opportunity to put MORE love in this world.

 

[rambot]

Right. Let every pro-life person line up in the foster parent line, regardless of income, savings, home environment, neighborhood........

Why not?
If they have the willingness and time to judge others and their inability to raise a child, then it certainly they must be well within the ability to be fantastic parents.

 

[rambot]

If people would treat abortion as murder instead of contraception, there would be few to no abortions just for convenience' sake.

And if adult people treated adult people with love, compassion and understanding at all times, there wouldn't be a need for abortion.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not actually placing blame at all; I am counting for consistency in what they try to maintain is "compassion for the baby" which seems to completely dissipate when the child gets to a certain age.

I think you may need to read what I wrote a little closer. I certainly made no claim that all pro life people are like that.

Statistics to bolster this claim?

1)You think "after care" services extend through the life of a child redleghunter? You have a child for longer than 1 year. Anti-safe abortion providers so frequently forget that babies are around longer than a year and many of those families would need support for much longer than that. So to argue "look how well we are supporting new parents" really doesn't take the place of caring and providing LOVE and ATTACTMENT throughout the whole child's life and equating them is totally disingenuous in my mind.
2) To an extent, your argument here bolsters my point. My argument was about ADOPTION as a viable option for unwanted babies. YOU are talking about wanted babies getting more support. And while that's great, for the sake of our talking points that's like comparing mandarin oranges and grapefruits

How can it be a red herring if it's true?

I know full well about the existence of numerous christian aid organizations around the world which provide subsistence to the poor.
But, and this is a big but, that, in no way, answers the point.
1) Despite the good work being done, it is insufficient. What aggrevates me is when Christians seem to think"Well, I donated to these organizations, so it is no longer a problem". Your donations only keep the problem from getting bigger. Donating to these organizations is wonderful and please don't stop. But don't be so misguided into thinking that your donations are solving the problem. The problem still exists. Your 100$ donation to the food bank will help out a family of 5 for half a month maybe, but it doesn't take ALL the hunger in your home town away.


2) The argument comes down to equating the raising of a child down to simply fiduciary requirements. That is to say, if you have money, you can raise a child. "I donate money, therefore I am helping unwanted children".
Talk about a missed message.
Unwanted children need to feel wanted. Having parents that don't want them and remind them of that, sometimes verbally, but every day in their neglect and/or ambivalence to their existence, is NOT replaced by making sure those kids had at least one square solid meal a day. If Christian pro-lifers insist on maintaining that label, then I would suggest they start showing love to the unwanted babies that ALREADY exist in the system and give those poor unwanted babies a LIFE full of love.

And that is why I'd rather see more pro-life people adopting. There are several pro-life people in my church who have adopted several kids. I disagree with them vehemently but man oh man do I respect the fact that they LIVE and LOVE that ideal instead of simply holding someone in contempt without trying to use the opportunity to put MORE love in this world.

The 'not enough' claim is another red herring. What IS enough? When we have Christians caring for mothers and children in the most vulnerable and critical stages and then provide job placement so they can care for themselves?

Look up these organizations

 

[Winken]

Prove it. To a standard demonstrable for secular legal purposes.

Bible 101. Ask a Christian attorney where he/she gets prosecutorial or defense authorization. The answer should be astounding!!

 

[Winken]

And if adult people treated adult people with love, compassion and understanding at all times, there wouldn't be a need for abortion.

Adult Christians? So why don't we? Obviously, we are called to be loving, compassionate and understanding 24/7.

 

[rambot]

The 'not enough' claim is another red herring. What IS enough?

When that child's food needs are met with programs that are VALUED instead of derided and threatened (like, say, not valuing healthy lunches in schools or supplementary meal programs where a child may get their 1 meal of the day). When a mother who can't afford a baby can still feel valued enough to get health care coverage at a clinic that values them as people. When leaders stop attacking the poor and villifying them.
You have to understand that, in government the Pro-Life crowd is ALSO the crowd of people who are FIRST to undercut help for ALL poor people.
Yes, what we as individual Christians can do is great....but we keep hearing about how Christians want this nation to be a Christian nation and that's why the republicans (the only God party), will do.
But again, they show no love of life once a baby is born.
And lastly, if adoption is better than abortion (another, richly overused comment from Pro unsafe abortion crowd), why are not all these people volunteering to adopt children? There would no children in care if every pro unsafe abortion supporter chose to adopt a child.

Look up these organizations

Again, you continue to harp on the "wanted children" angle.

You need to exponge that from your understanding of why people get abortions TO BEGIN WITH.

Adult Christians? So why don't we? Obviously, we are called to be loving, compassionate and understanding 24/7.

Because it's way, way, way, way easier for us to judge others; especially when we don't know their situation. We don't love 24/7 because we are broken and REFUSE to love people who do things we disagree with.

 

[rambot]

Possibly, but that isn't a great argument for it. I would rather argue for because
1. it is necessary due to the nature of some crimes.

2. as a deterrent to future criminals, which has been mostly nullified by long waits and closing executions to the public.

3. life in prison is just a salve to the conscience of pacifists. They still die in custody as a convicted felon, just not at a set time.

Mostly because they deserve to be killed, and some deserve to die slowly and in great pain. Being humane isn't for their sake though.

A google search just for you:
Google

 

[Armoured]

Bible 101. Ask a Christian attorney where he/she gets prosecutorial or defense authorization. The answer should be astounding!!

Yeah, good, you do that.

 

[redleghunter]

And that is why I'd rather see more pro-life people adopting.

Should not the pro-choice folks adopt too? I used to hear abortions should be rare and few from American liberals. One way to make them few is to adopt.

 

[rambot]

Should not the pro-choice folks adopt too?

Everyone should adopt, yes.

That said, adoptions wouldn't drop abortion rates. Unwanted pregnancies cause abortions. Find ways to stop unwanted pregnancies (I mean...ways that ACTUALLY work) ....by doing things like supporting contraception measures.

 

[redleghunter]

That said, adoptions wouldn't drop abortion rates.

A lot of the Christian crisis and counseling ministries do in fact help with adoption options early in unwanted pregnancies.

A lot of these debates amount to hand wringing. We can't roll up our sleeves and get to work if we are wringing our hands.