Christian, read it and weep............

[Winken]

http://www.lifenews.com/

03-06-2017

 

[redleghunter]

<staff edit>

http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/06/...ct-babies-born-alive-after-botched-abortions/

http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/06/...ions-for-thousands-of-women-theyve-never-met/

http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/06/police-find-19-aborted-girl-babies-abandoned-near-a-hospital/

 

[dgiharris]

Just what this forum needs, another abortion thread.

I think most of us would agree that selective abortion of female babies simply because they are female and you want a male is morally wrong.

However, the abortion bill post on this forum is like throwing chum into shark infested waters. There will never be a meeting of the minds on this issue and instead we will have about 8 or 9 pages of the usual pro-choice vs pro-life arguments. Though I will admit that this has a bit of a spin on it... I think this would be a better thread if moved to the Philosophy and Morals forum to be honest.

 

[rambot]

Hey. I don't want to hijack this thread too much but I'm really curious:
PP spends 800% more on pregnancy prevention than on abortion. That is a lot of percents.

So, if these states are serious about stopping unwanted pregnancies, how do they plan to disburse these funds that, like it or not, society benefited from? It would be bad, bad trouble if that money simply evaporates or goes to corporate subsidies.

 

[redleghunter]

Just what this forum needs, another abortion thread.

Much could be said of other topics too.

However, discussing abortion with non Christians is unfruitful at times. So see it from that aspect.

 

[redleghunter]

Hey. I don't want to hijack this thread too much but I'm really curious:
PP spends 800% more on pregnancy prevention than on abortion. That is a lot of percents.

So, if these states are serious about stopping unwanted pregnancies, how do they plan to disburse these funds that, like it or not, society benefited from? It would be bad, bad trouble if that money simply evaporates or goes to corporate subsidies.

Totally on subject.

You mean this information from Planned Parenthood?

To which even liberal media chided as dishonest:


As with self proclaimed statistics, the devil is in the details. This is how PP gets to their 3%:

How Does Planned Parenthood Calculate Its Claims About Its Abortion Services?
Although Planned Parenthood Federation of America reportedly requires all affiliates to have at least one clinic that performs abortions,[4] Planned Parenthood’s annual report does not identify the number of affiliated clinics that provide abortion services or how much of Planned Parenthood’s total revenue results from abortions. Instead, the report claims that abortions account for only 3 percent of the medical services Planned Parenthood affiliates provide.[5]

How does the Planned Parenthood annual report arrive at the 3 percent figure? The calculation counts each “discrete clinical interaction” as a separate “medical service,” meaning simple tests or routine provision of birth control are given the same weight as surgical or chemical abortions.[6] For example, if a woman in the course of a year receives a free condom, a pregnancy test, a sexually transmitted infection (STI) test, and an abortion, Planned Parenthood would say abortion was only 25 percent of the services provided.

Even with Planned Parenthood’s broad definition of “medical service,” data reported in the organization’s annual report suggest that roughly 12 percent of people who received a service from Planned Parenthood affiliates received an abortion during the reporting year.[7]

Despite a nearly 20 percent decline in the number of abortions in the country between 2000 and 2011,[8] the number of abortions Planned Parenthood performed during that time increased from 197,070 to 333,964, thereby more than doubling its share of the abortion market from 15 percent in 2000 to 32 percent in 2011,[9] the latest year for which national data are available.

Planned Parenthood affiliates perform about 20 abortions for every prenatal care visit and about 200 abortions for every adoption referral based on the approximately 300,000 abortions they perform each year.[10]

Disentangling the Data on Planned Parenthood Affiliates’ Abortion Services and Receipt of Taxpayer Funding

Even liberal leaning Rachel Larimore of Slate calls out PP stating their statistics are meaningless :

The Most Meaningless Abortion Statistic Ever

And another assessment here:

Planned Parenthood’s pathetic ‘3 percent’ lie | New York Post

 

[rambot]

You are missing my point: Like it or not, PP is providing a LOT of nonabortion related procedures, including some that prevent pregnancy.

How are these services going to be provided if not through PP?

Or is cancer screening and free birth control simply NOT important to people trying to get rid of PP.

 

[dgiharris]

Much could be said of other topics too.

However, discussing abortion with non Christians is unfruitful at times. So see it from that aspect.

Discussing any scientific subject with a person who uses religion as the cornerstone and bedrock of their argument is unfruitful.

It is impossible to argue with "Well God told me so, therefore that is what I believe".

The hard impossible truth is that Planned Parenthood and sex education and availability of contraceptives to everyone including minors is responsible for LOWERING the number of abortions that occur every single year.

and yet despite actual hard undeniable data, many religious types argue against Planned Parenthood.

FWIW, I happen to be black. For the sake of argument, lets say that the KKK decided to open schools in urban neighborhoods. And lets say that blacks that attended these KKK schools had test scores 20% higher than the national average and were 3 times more likely to graduate go to college, etc and that they were 80% less likely to join gangs, get arrested etc.

As much as I hate the KKK, I would have no choice but to support their urban schools because the data would be undeniable.
That is, if blacks doing well was more important than my ego and emotions.

If you are Christian, then you want fewer abortions every year. It should not matter how this is achieved, the fewer abortions per year the better. Now, the first obvious argument would be "Well, if abortions were illegal than no one would have them..." but that isn't true. Secondly, that has consequences such as women hurting themselves and/or dying in botched attempts. Then there is the matter of legally, anti-abortion lost in 1973 and that decision is never getting overturned. Just never.

Now, this means I can either accept reality or not. For the sake of argument I will accept reality. So now where does that leave me as a Christian? Well, the second obvious argument would be "Well, if I can keep people from having sex until they are ready to have a family then that would lower the abortion rate right?" Sure, that makes logical sense, however sex is just as powerful an urge as eating is. So the reality is that abstinence only programs actually increase the number of abortions that occur. That is what the data shows....

Ugghhhh.... so where does that leave me now? Hmmm..... well, as ironic as it is, Planned Parenthood, sex education, and disseminating contraceptives lower the abortion rate as shown by the graph. THe data is undeniable.

Therefore, in a twist of irony, if you are Christian and if you sincerely care about decreasing the number of abortions that occur per year, then you have no choice but to support Planned Parenthood. It is simple data driven logic.

But I find that too many of my fellow Christians put their egos and delicate sensibilities ahead of data and logic. And ironically, their actions actually lead to an INCREASE in abortions. Yet, because the feel they are fighting the good fight, their emotions and ego blind them to the data and facts.

 

[dgiharris]

You are missing my point: Like it or not, PP is providing a LOT of nonabortion related procedures, including some that prevent pregnancy.

How are these services going to be provided if not through PP?

Or is cancer screening and free birth control simply NOT important to people trying to get rid of PP.

The problem I have with the anti-PP crowd is that their decisions come from a place of moral authority and uses every logical fallacy to blind them to the data and obvious truths of PP.

In their hearts, PP is evil. PERIOD. PP kills babies, BABIES!!!! And as we all know, NOTHING GOOD CAN COME FROM EVIL. Thus, everything PP does is evil and therefore PP must be stopped at all costs and all considerations.

And then, once PP is wiped clean off the face of the earth, whatever happens after that is just god's will.

Every single time the PP debate comes up, I show the abortion data proving conclusively that PP and orgs like PP are RESPONSIBLE for the decreases in abortion. I then make the logical point that if you honestly and truly care about lowering the number of abortions per year in this country, that you would have no choice but to support PP.

And I have yet to get a credible or logical rebuttal to that point.

Data doesn't lie, but who needs data and facts when you come from a place of supreme moral authority. And it is impossible to argue with anyone whom's argument comes from God. I mean, how can you refute God? God wills it. Period. End of discussion.

So take your fancy facts and data and hit the door.

 

[SilverBear]

Totally on subject.

You mean this information from Planned Parenthood?

View attachment 191116

View attachment 191115

To which even liberal media chided as dishonest:


As with self proclaimed statistics, the devil is in the details. This is how PP gets to their 3%:

How Does Planned Parenthood Calculate Its Claims About Its Abortion Services?
Although Planned Parenthood Federation of America reportedly requires all affiliates to have at least one clinic that performs abortions,[4] Planned Parenthood’s annual report does not identify the number of affiliated clinics that provide abortion services or how much of Planned Parenthood’s total revenue results from abortions. Instead, the report claims that abortions account for only 3 percent of the medical services Planned Parenthood affiliates provide.[5]

How does the Planned Parenthood annual report arrive at the 3 percent figure? The calculation counts each “discrete clinical interaction” as a separate “medical service,” meaning simple tests or routine provision of birth control are given the same weight as surgical or chemical abortions.[6] For example, if a woman in the course of a year receives a free condom, a pregnancy test, a sexually transmitted infection (STI) test, and an abortion, Planned Parenthood would say abortion was only 25 percent of the services provided.

Even with Planned Parenthood’s broad definition of “medical service,” data reported in the organization’s annual report suggest that roughly 12 percent of people who received a service from Planned Parenthood affiliates received an abortion during the reporting year.[7]

Despite a nearly 20 percent decline in the number of abortions in the country between 2000 and 2011,[8] the number of abortions Planned Parenthood performed during that time increased from 197,070 to 333,964, thereby more than doubling its share of the abortion market from 15 percent in 2000 to 32 percent in 2011,[9] the latest year for which national data are available.

Planned Parenthood affiliates perform about 20 abortions for every prenatal care visit and about 200 abortions for every adoption referral based on the approximately 300,000 abortions they perform each year.[10]

Disentangling the Data on Planned Parenthood Affiliates’ Abortion Services and Receipt of Taxpayer Funding

Even liberal leaning Rachel Larimore of Slate calls out PP stating their statistics are meaningless :

The Most Meaningless Abortion Statistic Ever

And another assessment here:

Planned Parenthood’s pathetic ‘3 percent’ lie | New York Post

Truthfully this is far more questionable than the stats from planned parenthood.

I don't have time to muck through all of this but one glaring thing i will point out is that when a newspaper prints an opinion piece it is just that, an opinion.

 

[rambot]

I read this:

How does the Planned Parenthood annual report arrive at the 3 percent figure? The calculation counts each “discrete clinical interaction” as a separate “medical service,” meaning simple tests or routine provision of birth control are given the same weight as surgical or chemical abortions.[6] For example, if a woman in the course of a year receives a free condom, a pregnancy test, a sexually transmitted infection (STI) test, and an abortion, Planned Parenthood would say abortion was only 25 percent of the services provided.

1 divided by 4 is 0.25 which equals 25%. That is 100% correct. The moral outrage for 25% of the services rendered may be 100%, but that doesn't mean butkiss.

And I think, yes. That makes sense. Every time you come into their office and obtain services, that is a clinical interaction. If that happens 4 times, that makes sense.

There should be nothing disigenuous about that at all. If I go to a restaurant several times over a year and I buy fries, onion rings, a meal deal, and a meal for my family, all on seperate visits, I have received food/service from them on 4 occasions and those are 4 distinct services

The cost of a service is not relevant when discussing services provided. Consider this: That free given away condom could have prevented a single unwanted pregnancy (and then, possibly, an abortion). Or perhaps prevents an sti.... Saving the medical system several hundred bucks..


Lastly, I would posit that the reason PP abortions have gone up is thanks, in large part, to the FANTASTIC advertising campaign put on by the Republicans that are making many Americans aware of the services provided by PP. It's not that PP is going out of their way to provide more of them, Republicans just keep being responsible leaders and pointing people in the direction of the services they offer. What is a bit of a tragedy is that Republicans aren't talking about cancer screenings, available at PP. Too bad. They could really be helping people out.

 

[redleghunter]

You are missing my point: Like it or not, PP is providing a LOT of nonabortion related procedures, including some that prevent pregnancy.

How are these services going to be provided if not through PP?

Or is cancer screening and free birth control simply NOT important to people trying to get rid of PP.

The money can be spent directly on women's free health clinics. Considering PP refers a lot of their women's health exams out, the Fed government would be cutting out the 'middle man.'

 

[redleghunter]

I read this:1 divided by 4 is 0.25 which equals 25%. That is 100% correct. The moral outrage for 25% of the services rendered may be 100%, but that doesn't mean butkiss.

And I think, yes. That makes sense. Every time you come into their office and obtain services, that is a clinical interaction. If that happens 4 times, that makes sense.

There should be nothing disigenuous about that at all. If I go to a restaurant several times over a year and I buy fries, onion rings, a meal deal, and a meal for my family, all on seperate visits, I have received food/service from them on 4 occasions and those are 4 distinct services

The cost of a service is not relevant when discussing services provided. Consider this: That free given away condom could have prevented a single unwanted pregnancy (and then, possibly, an abortion).


Lastly, I would posit that the reason PP abortions have gone up is thanks, in large part, to the FANTASTIC advertising campaign put on by the Republicans that are making many Americans aware of the services provided by PP. It's not that PP is going out of their way to provide more of them, Republicans just keep being responsible leaders and pointing people in the direction of the services they offer. What is a bit of a tragedy is that Republicans aren't talking about cancer screenings, available at PP. Too bad. They could really be helping people out.

Then you agree PP lied in their advertisement?

 

[redleghunter]

Truthfully this is far more questionable than the stats from planned parenthood.

I don't have time to muck through all of this but one glaring thing i will point out is that when a newspaper prints an opinion piece it is just that, an opinion.

There were three sources. One objective, one from a liberal and one not so objective. All saying the same thing.

 

[rambot]

http://www.lifenews.com/

03-06-2017

calling pp an abortion corporation is like calling mcdonalds a salad bar.

 

[rambot]

Then you agree PP lied in their advertisement?

Not at all. Sadly though ive become sick and my brain is at about 60%. I can think why there is no lie and that this autbor does an excellent job of conflating data but i cant explain it now. Im sorry. I gotta bow outra this onw for a few days

 

[Waterwerx]

One question that I would raise is how PP implements contraception. Does it ever teach things such as abstaining, the fertility cycle of women, "alpha female" effects on other women's cycles and how they can effect the fertility window?
Its not like as if a couple can go have sex on any day and the woman becomes pregnant.
Many of their options in addressing the problem is just encouraging unrestrained sex.

 

[dgiharris]

One question that I would raise is how PP implements contraception. Does it ever teach things such as abstaining, the fertility cycle of women, "alpha female" effects on other women's cycles and how they can effect the fertility window?
Its not like as if a couple can go have sex on any day and the woman becomes pregnant.
Many of their options in addressing the problem is just encouraging unrestrained sex.

With Planned Parenthood, there is not some nefarious plan to turn you into a promiscuous sex addict. There isn't some evil villain sitting on a throne stroking his fu-man-chu pointy beard thinking of how to trick you into having an abortion.

They really are trying to help. The teach abstinence, they teach contraceptive, they provide all types of counseling or can refer you to places that do...

PP isn't an abortion factory with a quota they are trying to maintain. They are just a health org honestly trying to help. That's all.

Seriously, why would you think PP doesn't teach abstinence? Sure they do. Every question and topic related to sex is something they provide material for and information on.

The argument against PP is not symmetric in terms of reasoning, that is, this is not an argument in which both sides have equally valid points. No. One side is right and one side is clearly wrong. Those who side against PP do so for purely emotional reasons and they utilize every logical fallacy argumentative trick in the book and they refuse to acknowledge the data of the graph that shows that PP leads to a decrease in abortions.

The data is clear. PP and orgs like it lower the abortion rate. The abortion rate has been steadily declining and is now at an all time low. So if you want to lower the abortion rate, why would you advocate hurting an organization that is directly responsible for lowering the abortion rate??? Where is the logic in that?

Exactly my point...

 

[Winken]

With Planned Parenthood, there is not some nefarious plan to turn you into a promiscuous sex addict. There isn't some evil villain sitting on a throne stroking his fu-man-chu pointy beard thinking of how to trick you into having an abortion.

They really are trying to help. The teach abstinence, they teach contraceptive, they provide all types of counseling or can refer you to places that do...

PP isn't an abortion factory with a quota they are trying to maintain. They are just a health org honestly trying to help. That's all.

Seriously, why would you think PP doesn't teach abstinence? Sure they do. Every question and topic related to sex is something they provide material for and information on.

The argument against PP is not symmetric in terms of reasoning, that is, this is not an argument in which both sides have equally valid points. No. One side is right and one side is clearly wrong. Those who side against PP do so for purely emotional reasons and they utilize every logical fallacy argumentative trick in the book and they refuse to acknowledge the data of the graph that shows that PP leads to a decrease in abortions.

The data is clear. PP and orgs like it lower the abortion rate. The abortion rate has been steadily declining and is now at an all time low. So if you want to lower the abortion rate, why would you advocate hurting an organization that is directly responsible for lowering the abortion rate??? Where is the logic in that?

Exactly my point...

If they are in it to lower the abortion rate, why don't they stop performing abortions?

 

[redleghunter]

Discussing any scientific subject with a person who uses religion as the cornerstone and bedrock of their argument is unfruitful.

It is impossible to argue with "Well God told me so, therefore that is what I believe".

The hard impossible truth is that Planned Parenthood and sex education and availability of contraceptives to everyone including minors is responsible for LOWERING the number of abortions that occur every single year.

and yet despite actual hard undeniable data, many religious types argue against Planned Parenthood.

FWIW, I happen to be black. For the sake of argument, lets say that the KKK decided to open schools in urban neighborhoods. And lets say that blacks that attended these KKK schools had test scores 20% higher than the national average and were 3 times more likely to graduate go to college, etc and that they were 80% less likely to join gangs, get arrested etc.

As much as I hate the KKK, I would have no choice but to support their urban schools because the data would be undeniable.
That is, if blacks doing well was more important than my ego and emotions.

If you are Christian, then you want fewer abortions every year. It should not matter how this is achieved, the fewer abortions per year the better. Now, the first obvious argument would be "Well, if abortions were illegal than no one would have them..." but that isn't true. Secondly, that has consequences such as women hurting themselves and/or dying in botched attempts. Then there is the matter of legally, anti-abortion lost in 1973 and that decision is never getting overturned. Just never.

Now, this means I can either accept reality or not. For the sake of argument I will accept reality. So now where does that leave me as a Christian? Well, the second obvious argument would be "Well, if I can keep people from having sex until they are ready to have a family then that would lower the abortion rate right?" Sure, that makes logical sense, however sex is just as powerful an urge as eating is. So the reality is that abstinence only programs actually increase the number of abortions that occur. That is what the data shows....

Ugghhhh.... so where does that leave me now? Hmmm..... well, as ironic as it is, Planned Parenthood, sex education, and disseminating contraceptives lower the abortion rate as shown by the graph. THe data is undeniable.

Therefore, in a twist of irony, if you are Christian and if you sincerely care about decreasing the number of abortions that occur per year, then you have no choice but to support Planned Parenthood. It is simple data driven logic.

But I find that too many of my fellow Christians put their egos and delicate sensibilities ahead of data and logic. And ironically, their actions actually lead to an INCREASE in abortions. Yet, because the feel they are fighting the good fight, their emotions and ego blind them to the data and facts.

The OP and the post you responded to from me was not about PP but abortion in general.

It was a pro abortion rights Christian who introduced PP into the discussion to which I provided information to refute their error ridden propaganda.

Abortions have gone down. However, that is akin to saying fewer trains made it to Krakow. We still have over 1M abortions a year, 300K performed or outsourced by PP.

Why I said it is fruitless to discuss abortion with non Christians is they look at abortion from a relativistic moral position. Or none at all. Perhaps I should extend this assessment to Christians as well given some of the Christian only threads I've seen.

What's worse than a Christian preaching to other Christians about ego and delicate sensibilities? Christians who don't see or refuse to see elective abortions for what they are...killing another human life.