Christian, read it and weep............

[redleghunter]

Discussing any scientific subject with a person who uses religion as the cornerstone and bedrock of their argument is unfruitful.

Why are Pro abortion rights Christians ignoring the settled science of embryology?

 

[Winken]

Hey. I don't want to hijack this thread too much but I'm really curious:
PP spends 800% more on pregnancy prevention than on abortion. That is a lot of percents.

So, if these states are serious about stopping unwanted pregnancies, how do they plan to disburse these funds that, like it or not, society benefited from? It would be bad, bad trouble if that money simply evaporates or goes to corporate subsidies.

No one wants to abort PP. They want to stop abortions. The positive aspects of PP are not in question.

 

[Winken]

You are missing my point: Like it or not, PP is providing a LOT of nonabortion related procedures, including some that prevent pregnancy.

How are these services going to be provided if not through PP?

Or is cancer screening and free birth control simply NOT important to people trying to get rid of PP.

Again.............No one wants to abort PP. They want to stop abortions. The positive aspects of PP are not in question.

 

[Winken]

I read this:1 divided by 4 is 0.25 which equals 25%. That is 100% correct. The moral outrage for 25% of the services rendered may be 100%, but that doesn't mean butkiss.

And I think, yes. That makes sense. Every time you come into their office and obtain services, that is a clinical interaction. If that happens 4 times, that makes sense.

There should be nothing disigenuous about that at all. If I go to a restaurant several times over a year and I buy fries, onion rings, a meal deal, and a meal for my family, all on seperate visits, I have received food/service from them on 4 occasions and those are 4 distinct services

The cost of a service is not relevant when discussing services provided. Consider this: That free given away condom could have prevented a single unwanted pregnancy (and then, possibly, an abortion). Or perhaps prevents an sti.... Saving the medical system several hundred bucks..


Lastly, I would posit that the reason PP abortions have gone up is thanks, in large part, to the FANTASTIC advertising campaign put on by the Republicans that are making many Americans aware of the services provided by PP. It's not that PP is going out of their way to provide more of them, Republicans just keep being responsible leaders and pointing people in the direction of the services they offer. What is a bit of a tragedy is that Republicans aren't talking about cancer screenings, available at PP. Too bad. They could really be helping people out.

Again Again.........No one wants to abort PP. They want to stop abortions. The positive aspects of PP are not in question.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Moving from News to Christian Only News as the OP is addressed to Christians.

Only Christians may reply, so all non-Christian posts will be removed.

 

[redleghunter]

Again Again.........No one wants to abort PP. They want to stop abortions. The positive aspects of PP are not in question.

 

[Armoured]

Why are Pro abortion rights Christians ignoring the settled science of embryology?

How so?

 

[dgiharris]

.....What's worse than a Christian preaching to other Christians about ego and delicate sensibilities? Christians who don't see or refuse to see elective abortions for what they are...killing another human life.

Abortion is a more complicated problem then the simplistic view that it is all about baby killing.

#1) When is a life a life?
There are many of us who just don't believe life begins at conception. Me personally, unless you have a fully formed brain and internal organs and could theoretically survive outside the womb I just don't consider you a full human being.

#2) Life and Rights of the mother.
THere are many of us who believe that the fetus is an extension of the mother, for all practical purposes the mother can do whatever she wants with her body.

#3) We live in a Secular Society
You can't mandate your religious beliefs onto others just because you believe you know better. There are plenty of people who don't view life as sacrosanct. Truth is, people die by the millions everyday.

#4) Is life really that precious?
Why is it that pro-life people will bend over backwards to protect a fetus but the instant it is out of the womb then they just don't care anymore? Need help for food, shelter, clothing??? No. Blame the mother and if she can't provide then too bad so sad not our problem anymore...

anyways, not to rehash the abortion debate, we could literally argue for centuries and just not get a meeting of the minds on this issue.

I don't judge, it is between the woman and god and they will sort it out.

 

[dgiharris]

How so?

I suspect he is going to try to scientifically claim that life begins at conception... And thus, if life begins at conception then we should grant the fetus full human rights status...

however, I reject the premise that life = human being.

If I spit on the table it has tons of life in it. Big deal. What about personhood??? sentience???

So for me, until there is a brain and internal organs, I just dont' consider a fetus a full person. Not to say I don't care, I do. But I believe that it's the woman's body and thus her choice and that in a secular society I have no moral authority to demand and force others (particularly women) to put themselves at risk if they do not want to.

And yes, pregnancy is dangerous. There is a real risk to your life being pregnant. Also there is significant burden being pregnant...

Sigh, i keep dipping my toe into the abortion argument pool... I need to just stop and walk away...

 

[pat34lee]

There should be nothing disigenuous about that at all. If I go to a restaurant several times over a year and I buy fries, onion rings, a meal deal, and a meal for my family, all on seperate visits, I have received food/service from them on 4 occasions and those are 4 distinct services

It's more like going in for a meal and having them mark the catsup packets, S&P, straw, napkins and packaging as different services on the same visit.

 

[pat34lee]

These are the days we are in:

Revelation 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[pat34lee]

#1) When is a life a life?
There are many of us who just don't believe life begins at conception. Me personally, unless you have a fully formed brain and internal organs and could theoretically survive outside the womb I just don't consider you a full human being.

#2) Life and Rights of the mother.
THere are many of us who believe that the fetus is an extension of the mother, for all practical purposes the mother can do whatever she wants with her body.

#3) We live in a Secular Society
You can't mandate your religious beliefs onto others just because you believe you know better. There are plenty of people who don't view life as sacrosanct. Truth is, people die by the millions everyday.

#4) Is life really that precious?
Why is it that pro-life people will bend over backwards to protect a fetus but the instant it is out of the womb then they just don't care anymore? Need help for food, shelter, clothing??? No. Blame the mother and if she can't provide then too bad so sad not our problem anymore...

I don't judge, it is between the woman and god and they will sort it out.

Actually, it is all about killing babies.

1. Opinions don't make a baby less alive. It just shows we have the irrational ability to rationalize murder.

2. Again, opinions don't change science. The baby is a separate entity from conception. Rationalizing again.

3. Murder is more than a religious belief, but is one of the oldest laws, and is common to every culture. There are people without conscience. That makes murder no less despicable.

4. Not relevant to the argument, but wrong anyway. Makes a nice sounding emotional accusation though, doesn't it?

Maybe we shouldn't judge anyone. Let them rape, steal, loot and kill to their hearts' content.
You've set God aside in your arguments, so why bring him in here?

 

[Armoured]

Actually, it is all about killing babies.

1. Opinions don't make a baby less alive. It just shows we have the irrational ability to rationalize murder.

2. Again, opinions don't change science. The baby is a separate entity from conception. Rationalizing again.

3. Murder is more than a religious belief, but is one of the oldest laws, and is common to every culture. There are people without conscience. That makes murder no less despicable.

4. Not relevant to the argument, but wrong anyway. Makes a nice sounding emotional accusation though, doesn't it?

Maybe we shouldn't judge anyone. Let them rape, steal, loot and kill to their hearts' content.
You've set God aside in your arguments, so why bring him in here?

Prove what you think of a baby qualifies as "a baby". While you're at it, look up the definition of murder.

 

[fide]

Abortion is a more complicated problem then the simplistic view that it is all about baby killing.

#1) When is a life a life?
There are many of us who just don't believe life begins at conception. Me personally, unless you have a fully formed brain and internal organs and could theoretically survive outside the womb I just don't consider you a full human being.

#2) Life and Rights of the mother.
THere are many of us who believe that the fetus is an extension of the mother, for all practical purposes the mother can do whatever she wants with her body.

#3) We live in a Secular Society
You can't mandate your religious beliefs onto others just because you believe you know better. There are plenty of people who don't view life as sacrosanct. Truth is, people die by the millions everyday.

#4) Is life really that precious?
Why is it that pro-life people will bend over backwards to protect a fetus but the instant it is out of the womb then they just don't care anymore? Need help for food, shelter, clothing??? No. Blame the mother and if she can't provide then too bad so sad not our problem anymore...

anyways, not to rehash the abortion debate, we could literally argue for centuries and just not get a meeting of the minds on this issue.

I don't judge, it is between the woman and god and they will sort it out.

There is no meeting of minds - no place of compromise - when the issue is whether one person has the moral right ever to murder an innocent, vulnerable, helpless human being.

We are seeing an ever-advancing battle (an on-going war, actually) between the culture of life, and the culture of death:

• The "law" of the culture of death has always been the same: "might makes right." If we are stronger and more powerful, we can make the law what we choose, and when it is "legal" and we've got the Army, we've won. Examples: Stalinist "Communist" Russia, Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Islamist ISIS, and if "progressivism" wins out in America, the whole West may fall.
• The law of the culture of life is written upon the hearts of the righteous and even many among thieves and robbers! - they know in their hearts, whether they know of Christian virtue or not; whether they know of the God of Abraham or not, whether they go to church on Sundays or not: some things are wrong! It is common sense! To do such a thing is inhuman - it is evil - it is just not right.

This used to be "common sense" before men got too smart for their own good. Now, in the "post-Christian West", Ph.D.'s argue there is no such thing as a Natural Moral Law inscribed in human conscience, in the "human dna," that just knows it is wrong to kill the innocent, to steal from your neighbor, to lie, to cheat, to take advantage of the simple and trusting to use them like they were nothing. Now, Ph.D.'s argue that there is no such thing as a "human nature" - no, we are "evolving" always, our "human nature" is what we make it today. We "decide" what and who we are. We "decide" what is right and what is wrong. We are (shall I say it) gods.

Such faux "enlightenment" is cultural suicide, and personal insanity. It is men in flight from reality, running from truth, blinded by lust, by ambition, and by pride. It is, in a word, death. And thus the Culture of Death brings forth its dead.

 

[Armoured]

There is no meeting of minds - no place of compromise - when the issue is whether one person has the moral right ever to murder an innocent, vulnerable, helpless human being.

We are seeing an ever-advancing battle (an on-going war, actually) between the culture of life, and the culture of death:

• The "law" of the culture of death has always been the same: "might makes right." If we are stronger and more powerful, we can make the law what we choose, and when it is "legal" and we've got the Army, we've won. Examples: Stalinist "Communist" Russia, Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Islamist ISIS, and if "progressivism" wins out in America, the whole West may fall.
• The law of the culture of life is written upon the hearts of the righteous and even many among thieves and robbers! - they know in their hearts, whether they know of Christian virtue or not; whether they know of the God of Abraham or not, whether they go to church on Sundays or not: some things are wrong! It is common sense! To do such a thing is inhuman - it is evil - it is just not right.

This used to be "common sense" before men got too smart for their own good. Now, in the "post-Christian West", Ph.D.'s argue there is no such thing as a Natural Moral Law inscribed in human conscience, in the "human dna," that just knows it is wrong to kill the innocent, to steal from your neighbor, to lie, to cheat, to take advantage of the simple and trusting to use them like they were nothing. Now, Ph.D.'s argue that there is no such thing as a "human nature" - no, we are "evolving" always, our "human nature" is what we make it today. We "decide" what and who we are. We "decide" what is right and what is wrong. We are (shall I say it) gods.

Such faux "enlightenment" is cultural suicide, and personal insanity. It is men in flight from reality, running from truth, blinded by lust, by ambition, and by pride. It is, in a word, death. And thus the Culture of Death brings forth its dead.

Come up with a working, meaningful and consistent definition of "human being", and lets talk.

 

[rambot]

If they are in it to lower the abortion rate, why don't they stop performing abortions?

Because, and this is important, they will get abortions somewhere else. Believe it or not almost EVERYONE is in it to lower rates, some people just also want to keep women safe at the same time. Some don't care about that enough

 

[rambot]

It's more like going in for a meal and having them mark the catsup packets, S&P, straw, napkins and packaging as different services on the same visit.

But not really. Is it a consistent occurence for you to go to McDonald and not order food?

 

[rambot]

Actually, it is all about killing babies.

1. Opinions don't make a baby less alive. It just shows we have the irrational ability to rationalize murder.

2. Again, opinions don't change science. The baby is a separate entity from conception. Rationalizing again.

3. Murder is more than a religious belief, but is one of the oldest laws, and is common to every culture. There are people without conscience. That makes murder no less despicable.

4. Not relevant to the argument, but wrong anyway. Makes a nice sounding emotional accusation though, doesn't it?

Maybe we shouldn't judge anyone. Let them rape, steal, loot and kill to their hearts' content.
You've set God aside in your arguments, so why bring him in here?

Maybe we shouldn't judge Anyone? This sounds like you are being facetious. (John 8:7). But you're right. We are just supposed to love them.

 

[fide]

Come up with a working, meaningful and consistent definition of "human being", and lets talk.

Do you honestly not know what a human being is? I'm serious. Can you give me an example of a being that one man might call "a human being" whereas you would say "no" that is not a human being?

• I know that some pro-abortion people (who are sure they themselves are human beings, worthy of full recognition and human rights) deny human rights to the unborn, right up to the moment of birth.
• I know that the Nazis denied the human right to life to Jews, to homosexuals, to Gypsies and others who they said had "life unworthy of life."
• America denied full human rights to slaves, giving their "owners" mastery over them, counting them as three-fifths of a person, allowing their masters life or death rule over them. That same entitlement - ownership and denial of personhood and the right to life - has been extended to the unborn, making them "slaves" owned by their mothers.

Do you know that you are a human being? What makes you human? The laws of Congress, or the very fact that you ARE a human being and not anything else?

Edited to add - I just saw that you are Catholic. Can you tell me please what makes you "Catholic"?
From the Catholic Catechism:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. [Cf. CDF, Donum vitae I, 1]

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. [Jer 1:5; cf. Job 10:8-12; Ps 22:10-11]
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. [Ps 139:15] ​

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. [Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320]

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes. [GS 51 # 3] ​

 

[PropheticTimes]

Planned Parenthood wouldn't be needed if women...oh, I don't know....kept their legs closed? (I'm a woman so whatever argument you just had fly through your head is invalid).

Want to prevent pregnancy? Keep your legs closed.
Don't want an STD? Keep your legs closed.