Christian Question.

ToBeLoved said:

Yes I think it is.

If you believe that the Lord is righteous and just, perfectly able to judge because He knows all things, knows the heart, motivations, actions, ect. Then IMHO, you should know that the Lord is just. Whatever satan has coming to him I believe is deserved because of my Lord's righteousness. He CANNOT be anything but righteous.

That is what I believe. Also, God has already condemned satan so God has spoken.

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Well said.

alexandriaisburning said:

For God to hate that which God has created produces a schizophrenic picture of God. God's creation is borne out of God's eternal loving-ness; so if God creates that which God hates, we can only conclude that God hates Godself. It also makes God a liar, in that God calls "good" that which God has created out of hatred.

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So you are saying here that you disagree with both Paul and Malachi (Romans 9:13 quoting Malachi 1:2-3)... both of whom orthodox Christianity believes were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. God hated Esau, or at least He hated the descendants of Esau (in the context of Malachi). The fact is that God does hate evil (Isaiah 1:14; 61:8; Jeremiah 44:4; Revelation 2:6, etc.) and we are commended by the Scriptures to hate evil as well (Amos 5:15). Perhaps you are the one who needs to reexamine your understanding of what it means to be orthodox and also what immutability means in reference to the God of the Bible... it deals with His character, not His feelings. It is in His character to feel hate for evil and love for good. He is love, but He is also Holy, righteous, and good, therefore it is in His character to hate evil because evil is the antithesis of all that He is.

You reach a faulty conclusion because you think that if God hates what He originally created as perfect and "very good" because it has become corrupted by sin, that God must therefore hate Himself. God does not hate Himself, He hates evil, which He is not and has not created. Evil has come into the world through the fall of Satan, a being that God created as a good and wise angel, but who became corrupt through His own free will. AHA, you may say, God created free will so if God hates evil He must hate Himself for creating the source of all evil. On the contrary, free will is necessary for the highest of all goods, love, to be possible, so creating free will was a good thing... God can only hate the result of what His creation has done with their free will, evil.

One last point: when I say "free will" I recognize that our freedom is limited by our capacities, yet our will is not under the direct control of God, therefore it is free to an extent, and I use the term free will in this way.

Hope this helps

Shadowprophet said:

I will grant people this, If it truly is wrong to feel sorry for the devil, Then I am wrong, I am not a prideful man. That is why I came here. If I am wrong, I will correct the problem. But, I don't feel That i have to hate. I also don't feel like I must follow in everyone else's footsteps, I feel like I have a personal relationship with God and I speak to him through prayer very often. Sometimes, In prayer, I ask him not to go, But to stay with me.. I don't feel I am evil or wrong or sinning, to feel sorry for the devil. But even if it is somehow wrong. Then I will work on it and Fix the problem, I am not prideful. I didn't come here thinking I know everything, or have all the answers.

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I do not think it is wrong to feel sorrow for the devil's lost soul... but I think it would be wrong to love him.

I might feel sorry for a prostitute as her life must be full of error and confusion. I would remain opposed to that lifestyle. She should look for an occupational change that is healthier and more productive. To show mercy to a sinner is not the same as being an accessory to a crime. Correct a sinner if you can. The devil is an allegorical construction, not an eternal being.

dqhall said:

I might feel sorry for a prostitute as her life must be full of error and confusion. I would remain opposed to that lifestyle. She should look for an occupational change that is healthier and more productive. To show mercy to a sinner is not the same as being an accessory to a crime. Correct a sinner if you can. The devil is an allegorical construction, not an eternal being.

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The devil is not an allegorical construction...we are not told to be alert and of sober mind because..."our enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (I Peter 5:8) ...nor to...
Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. (I Peter 5:9)

And one could go on with these quotes, couldn't we? No, the devil, HE, is real and tried to usurp the throne of God as Isaiah tells us in Isaiah 14:11-15:
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

And we are warned that there is war in the heavens and it very much involves us...
Ephesians 6:12-15:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

throughfireytrial said:

The devil is not an allegorical construction...we are not told to be alert and of sober mind because..."our enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (I Peter 5:8) ...nor to...
Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. (I Peter 5:9)

And one could go on with these quotes, couldn't we? No, the devil, HE, is real and tried to usurp the throne of God as Isaiah tells us in Isaiah 14:11-15:
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

And we are warned that there is war in the heavens and it very much involves us...
Ephesians 6:12-15:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

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If you take this passage of a prowling lion literally, you will be on the lookout for a lion that is stalking the streets. If you admit there is some allegory to the statement, you will have to be aware there are criminals and fanatics capable of violence who might oppose you.

I do not believe all the sin in the world is the work of one creature. I think many have gone astray. Some hurt people intentionally and others hurt people by accident. Distracted and drunk drivers kill more people than those ramming others' vehicles intentionally.

dqhall said:

If you take this passage of a prowling lion literally, you will be on the lookout for a lion that is stalking the streets. If you admit there is some allegory to the statement, you will have to be aware there are criminals and fanatics capable of violence who might oppose you.

I do not believe all the sin in the world is the work of one creature. I think many have gone astray. Some hurt people intentionally and others hurt people by accident. Distracted and drunk drivers kill more people than those ramming others' vehicles intentionally.

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But isn't the topic specific to satan? Are we changing focus here to people? Getting confused.

I do not think Satan is a literal person, but the personification of evil, or a person doing wrong.

Matthew 16:23 (World English Bible - Public Domain)
But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men."

Before this in Matthew 16:18, Jesus told Peter that upon this rock, he would build his church. The name Peter may be derived from the Greek petros meaning rock. Peter's name at birth was Simon, probably after Simon Maccabee, a Jewish general in the war against the Greeks. If Peter was called Satan, does this mean he was not a man? Of course not. It meant he had made a mistake. If Jesus predicted Peter would become a foundation for the church, Jesus foretold Peter's ministry as a founding member of the early church.

dqhall said:

I do not think Satan is a literal person, but the personification of evil, or a person doing wrong.

Matthew 16:23 (World English Bible - Public Domain)
But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men."

Before this in Matthew 16:18, Jesus told Peter that upon this rock, he would build his church. The name Peter may be derived from the Greek petros meaning rock. Peter's name at birth was Simon, probably after Simon Maccabee, a Jewish general in the war against the Greeks. If Peter was called Satan, does this mean he was not a man? Of course not. It meant he had made a mistake. If Jesus predicted Peter would become a foundation for the church, Jesus foretold Peter's ministry as a founding member of the early church.

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But there is more in the Bible about this than just that about satan.

I would read all the Bible has to say on the topic and also look at multiple translations.

I've never heard of the World English Bible. Not saying there is anything wrong with it. Just watch translations.

It's always better to know more than less.

farout said:

I understand your thought on this. But that is the wrong sympathy for the most evil wicked person alive. The devil also called Satan is the father of all lies, the reason Jesus had to die for our sins. Satan try's to lead people to disbelieve Jesus Christ. Satan is the cause of death and people going to hell. He dose all he can to distract people in their driving to cause a crash and to kill and hurt people for their lifetime.

Every funeral I have ever done, reminds me that had Satan not tempted Eve there would be no death or hell. Blame sickness and war on the evil in the world that Satan. He encouraged the crime on the streets, the killing and every evil deed relates back to Satan.


Feel sorry for his victims, the loved ones we have lost and the pain in the world.

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True. Very true.

But our loving the world through it's pain and people through their pain can be a powerful testimony of Christ Jesus and the changes He has made in us. Love is the thing that most catches an unsaved person's eye that is different about us. Love, love, love.

Emmy said:

To be forgiven, the Devil would have to follow Jesus to become one of God`s beings, do you believe there is the smallest chance of the evil one to follow Jesus? I say this with love, Shadowprophet. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

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No. The devil and his demons are not offered salvation through Christ. That is only human beings.

There future has already been set and is in the Bible. There is no salvation for them.

dqhall said:

If you take this passage of a prowling lion literally, you will be on the lookout for a lion that is stalking the streets. If you admit there is some allegory to the statement, you will have to be aware there are criminals and fanatics capable of violence who might oppose you.

I do not believe all the sin in the world is the work of one creature. I think many have gone astray. Some hurt people intentionally and others hurt people by accident. Distracted and drunk drivers kill more people than those ramming others' vehicles intentionally.

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No, no, read more carefully...the devil is *Like* a prowling lion...there are enough other passages about Satan and his work to know better than to be on the look-out for a lion on our tail...so to speak. I hope you too have read these passages so that we can clearly communicate. It is God by the way Who put these words in the mouth of Peter and which were taken down for our sake...you might not have considered it this way, but you are delivering a put down to God when you criticize, judge, or ridicule a Bible passage. Best refrain from this and just state your point of view.

I agree with you on your statement that you do not believe all the sin in the world is the work of one creature...we have three enemies since the fall of man and God's curses delivered in Genesis 3: the devil, the world and our sinful flesh. (only a few select passages to demonstrate, but there will be many others, the following passages are only to make myself clear.)
Our Enemy, the devil/aka Satan:
Tried to usurp the throne of our Creator and King, God Almighty (Isaiah 14:11-15)
Tempted [via a lie] Adam and Eve which brought sin and death to the world and invited all God's curses (Genesis 3)
Is the father of all lies (John 8:44)
Was a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44)
Is waging war against the saints (Daniel 7:21)
Stands condemned (John 16:11)
Our Enemy, the World:
The world received the curse (Genesis 3:15)
Offers much to lust and love over and above our God and the sinful nature desires such things (I John 2:15-17)
The world does not know God (I John 3:1)
Our Enemy, Our Own Sinful Flesh
The flesh is sinful, that is, sinful even from birth (Psalm 51:5)
Therefore, we stand condemned (Romans 5:18)
We alone are powerless to come to God (Romans 8:8-17)

All spells out that we NEED Jesus!

dqhall said:

I might feel sorry for a prostitute as her life must be full of error and confusion. I would remain opposed to that lifestyle. She should look for an occupational change that is healthier and more productive. To show mercy to a sinner is not the same as being an accessory to a crime. Correct a sinner if you can. The devil is an allegorical construction, not an eternal being.

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I think you might be missing the point: if a person doesn't value themselves enough to treat themselves with respect, then why should she seek a change of job when she has been conditioned to need and value money and when it is being offered in such large amounts for a few minutes use of her body? Shouldn't you care for a person enough, so that they will not think it an option to disrespect themselves for a few dollars, in order for them to not consider prostitution as an option?

You say: "She should look for an occupational change that is healthier and more productive." But until a person desires better: they will not change. Love is the answer to healing our world. Jesus had pity upon the legion of demons that possessed a man and when they implored him to be cast into the swine, instead of the abyss, Jesus granted them their request. Has none here heard that Jesus taught us to LOVE OUR ENEMIES? Isn't Satan our enemy? Shouldn't you love him? Yes you should and it is this coldness of heart that stops many of you from having compassion on others and will prevent you from receiving it from God, according to Jesus' teachings: unless you turn/repent.

ewq1938 said:

Well, I think the devil doesn't really care if he is doomed to the lake of fire....he just takes pleasure is bringing as many others with him in the ultimate act of chaos and anarchy. It's harder to feel sorry for someone like that.

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I think you are very mistaken. I think Satan had no idea how horrible a life of separation from his creator would be and if it were possible to experience the emotional ecstasy he once knew, he would embrace it in a moment, but no such opportunity exists for him.

Without forgiveness and a role model, to teach us how to live, what opportunity would we have to find our way back to God?
Isaiah 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.


sa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Oh that men would learn to walk in love and compassion for all, so that they would be free from the cold, hard, callused hearts they possess.

2 know him said:

I think you are very mistaken. I think Satan had no idea how horrible a life of separation from his creator would be and if it were possible to experience the emotional ecstasy he once knew, he would embrace it in a moment, but no such opportunity exists for him.

Without forgiveness and a role model, to teach us how to live, what opportunity would we have to find our way back to God?
Isaiah 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.


sa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Oh that men would learn to walk in love and compassion for all, so that they would be free from the cold, hard, callused hearts they possess.

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But,
Access to forgiveness and salvation come through Christ and those which hear this Gospel message and believe receive Christ and His salvation. It is not impossible for the wicked to be saved...we were all once wicked as you quote. Angels are different from humans and so we cannot presume they somehow innocently made mistakes [sinned].
This passage tells us they are clearly different:
I Peter 1:10-12:
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
Yet, we will judge angels says Paul:
I Corinthians 6:2-3:
Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
It is good then to get that correct dose of righteousness which allows us to condemn the devil in our minds. As Scripture says: Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. (Romans 12:9)
God gives us discernment so we can judge rightly...
Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgement.” --John7:23

Interesting OP and follow up post,

We both have been down the same road at different times brother. The following link may or may not hit on some issues on the darkness for you (AKA Devil, Sin, Negativity all those are the same just termed differently). http://www.christianforums.com/threads/stumbling-b-in-forgivness.7835417/

A lot of content in that link may not pertain to you brother . However, we seem to both be asking the same question. So far, here is an overview to ourselves. If a mind holds malice (even to the devil) then the mind has grabbed onto negativity, correct? For me (maybe not you, good sir), I have found that I must forgive even the devil to accomplish a mind complete in forgiveness down to the very id of my thought process . When we revamp (With the Word , praying and asking the difficult questions like yours in OP) the mind of peoples taught ways of judgment, for me, it was liberating to forgive the devil too so I could pursue Galatians 5:22-23 with God as guide . There is no "gate of hell" (Person) to guide in things Spiritual Matthew 16:18.

Here's the thing about a church congregation and the preacher too. All these are gates to hell in matters of the Spirit. Believe me brother , I had a hard time wrapping my mind around that bold statement too but it was the most liberating thing, once, understanding of the depth of what a gate of hell is that includes... (Me Too). Your truth and my truth would be like minded depending on who do we reason with. God or men? Once saved it is, for you, good sir, to sequester in the Word, prayer and silence of the closet (no tv, radio, iphone, people etc... to interrupt your revamping of the mind (thought process from judgment to forgiveness) Romans 12:2 . ). In my own sequester your question (without wife) was mine too about the devil. Yet, who do we seek for answers in the end? God or men? This site is a great revealer when we read something AND pray to God for the truth of what is read to the final authority our Father God . So, what is said by fanthatspark needs praying over between you and God to pick the nugget of truth that applies to you. Church is for training , but no man can guide Spirit (Preacher, congregation too).
"Who convinceth me I sin"? People do , right? Thus, they are in a mind of judgment right?

A lyric by Creed (Human Clay) comes to mind. " I feel I've been beaten down, by the words of man who have no ground" . <-- More truth to that than what is written, eh?

In closing , for me, this verse was profound not in what was said but what was not said. Genesis 1:3-4 . Notice there is no judgment on darkness . We alone (humanity), put the "default bad" there, yet, what has God said about it? Silence. Brother, is that not "void" Gen 1:2 ? Its not fire that is hell, it is no love/light/heaven/Jesus/Chirist/Agape judged good, right? So, we have our duality (nature) to forgive in totality or forgive something's but not other things (Devil) and that is the crux to the liberation of the mind to absorb love in, love out = manifestation (Galatians 5:22-23), and let God judge; not us. To look for sin, is a thought hung on a tree of knowledge alone (John 5:39). When we accept love (John 5:40) does not your question arise to forgive in totality. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 . In hopes .

ToBeLoved said:

But there is more in the Bible about this than just that about satan.

I would read all the Bible has to say on the topic and also look at multiple translations.

I've never heard of the World English Bible. Not saying there is anything wrong with it. Just watch translations.

It's always better to know more than less.

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I would try to look more in the NT than the OT for my salvation. I have read the Bible and can remember parts of it. Deuteronomy is useful for those who do not have highly developed morals. There is a danger some of the punishments of the OT might be exceedingly cruel. The Jews do not work on Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) and their law asks for execution of those who do work. Lighting a fire was considered work. Some modern Jews will not drive on Sabbath, although they do no execute people who do as they are reformed. The Jews are as strict about their Sabbath as to remove someone from their fellowship who is not observing the Sabbath commandment.

Job is a story about one man being tempted by Satan to curse God for all the troubles he had to endure. Job did not curse God and was restored. One might be tempted by others to abandon their righteous ethics. The temptations are from the words and observed actions of others. Some suffer delusion within. Repentance is necessary for one to realize the rewards of righteousness.

The World English Bible is a modern English language Bible that is no longer protected by copyright. Like the King James Version, you may quote from it without violating someone's intellectual property rights. If I copy a Bible or other book or text that is copyrighted and send it to someone, I might be liable for damages in a court of law.

Shadowprophet said:

I have spent a long time trying to become a better person and a better christian.
Who can say if I have or have not changed. I am not a judge.

After some time in my life, I do feel that I have changed for the better.. But I am confused. The Bible teaches love and forgiveness, After some time, One can begin to really feel these things in their heart.

I ask you all, Is it wrong, To feel sorry for the Devil? I realize what the devil is, and what he has done to God and man,, but My heart was taught to love and to forgive, And I do feel sorry for a soul that is so damned without any chance for salvation..

Is this wrong to feel? Am I wrong?

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emotions can be confusing.

feeling empathy for the evil one, reveals a lack of knowledge on what He actually did, do deserve the punishment He got.

Many just think He is the bad guy in every situation.

but Satan was actually the worship leader in heaven leading all the angels into worship of the Father God.

He was a mighty cherub.

beautiful, and desired.

However He decided that his position in heaven as leader, was not good enough for Him. He believed He was better than God Himself.

He storms the throne, in order to position Himself on it, instead of God.

and gets rejected from Heaven all together, banished to the earth.

A serpent, to slither on his belly for the rest of his days.

1/3 of the angels were rejected with him, as he was their boss.

Him and His angels are still principalities of the air today, they rule behind the scenes and are no doubt major players in the political, and media of the world affecting it in the negative, against God and against good.

He has not stopped being that same person ever since.

He has only tortured, maimed, and tempted Christians, and God's children, because He has jealousy issues.

The one way to get back to God for banning Him is to send his demons to mess with God's real children.

the christians.

Most of us don't have spiritual warfare. At least a real serious warfare.

it may be a bad dream every once in a while.

but I have seen spiritual warfare in my day, that resembles a horror movie.

it's not fun.

satan is not a nice, fellow, and I would not want to meet him in a dark ally.

Our only hope is that there are 2-1 more angels than demons, and they are only a prayer or two away.

If we did not have prayer, and if angels didn't respond to prayer, we would be up the creek.

I knew a person in charge of a 500 kid VBS school program in the summer, and they said that one night they saw a dark figure in their room at night, very evil, very dark.

They prayed, and closed their eyes, and kept praying, and it was eventually gone.

but it never happened before, and never after (13 years ago now).

it was only during a time of the year where many kids would come to know Jesus, through vacation bible school.

see, when you are doing major evangelistic outreaches to thousands of people you may have a visit.

but most of us, are simply too insignificant for the devil to bother.

He may still send bad thoughts, and tempt us. But to manifest like they did in that way, to materialize in real form, is rare.

For the most part, He is winning his war. And people by and large are leaving the faith, not coming to know him.

God is in control yes, but we are ultimately at fault for not teaching apologetics to kids at a young age, and teaching them to be rational about science, God, the Bible, and logic.

anyway, that is another topic.

another story I had was about a young girl in a country area around our county. She had a dream about a stuffed animal tickling her and not stopping. every night, same dream. I think it was elmo or something, not sure. She was probably 7-8. Well her mom told me that she went into her childs room that night, and slept in there, and told the young girl to sleep in her bed with her father, in the master bedroom. That night, her mother woke up, and her feet were levatating. (she was sitting in a chair, and her feet were floating straight out, levetation). This concept is common in occultic referances. They were solid Bible believers, but that had never happened before. They called every pastor in the community to pray over their house. (about 15 of them showed up and prayed over their entire country properties border fence, doing a prayer walk).

later that week the young girl had a similiar dream, but this time she heard the voice of the stuffed animal through the wall, like it was on the outside, stuck.

(it's been awhile, but I was doing cult classes at bible college at the time), and when this girl had the dream (the last one), She heard two of them say, hey "jonathan" come on, lets go. I think it was jonathan, but not sure.

I don't know for sure, but I looked up in my cult manual, some names of spiritual mediums that have been used by famous cults in the past, and the name she told be was a fairly well known, spiritual medium used by the cults.

there is no way to prove that was the same, one, or if it just had a similiar name.

but it's interesting.

yeah, I don't feel sorry for satan.

the guy responsible for giving kids bad dreams and tormenting on the innocent.