Christian Question - Please Answer :)

[Strathos]

The Trinity is confusing. But there is one analogy that I find can be helpful.

If you are familiar with quantum physics, it states that individual particles can be in a state of superposition, where they literally exist in more than 1 state at the same time (whether it be position, time, orientation, etc.) You may have heard of Schrodinger's Cat, which is a thought experiment extrapolating this principle to the macro scale, in which it's posited that a cat can be both dead and alive simultaneously.

Now I'm not saying that the Trinity means that God is literally in a state of quantum superposition, but it's an interesting way to think about it, as it's a principle in science that explains how one thing can be different and yet the same.

 

[muichimotsu]

The Trinity is confusing. But there is one analogy that I find can be helpful.

If you are familiar with quantum physics, it states that individual particles can be in a state of superposition, where they literally exist in more than 1 state at the same time (whether it be position, time, orientation, etc.) You may have heard of Schrodinger's Cat, which is a thought experiment extrapolating this principle to the macro scale, in which it's posited that a cat can be both dead and alive simultaneously.

Now I'm not saying that the Trinity means that God is literally in a state of quantum superposition, but it's an interesting way to think about it, as it's a principle in science that explains how one thing can be different and yet the same.

Except those are properties of the object in question that can be measured and demonstrated in some sense, God being Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not really subject to the same thing, so the analogy, even if it works, falls apart with further investigation, mostly on a category basis. But also, the properties of divinity seem to render human traits almost invisible in contrast, it gets into bizarre Kabbalah ideas of God emanating in the physical universe rather than being present in the traditional sense of position in space and time

Quantum mechanics is as much a limit of our perception as it is the sheer scale of the particles on that subatomic level or otherwise.

 

[Strathos]

Except those are properties of the object in question that can be measured and demonstrated in some sense, God being Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not really subject to the same thing, so the analogy, even if it works, falls apart with further investigation, mostly on a category basis. But also, the properties of divinity seem to render human traits almost invisible in contrast, it gets into bizarre Kabbalah ideas of God emanating in the physical universe rather than being present in the traditional sense of position in space and time

Quantum mechanics is as much a limit of our perception as it is the sheer scale of the particles on that subatomic level or otherwise.

How does the analogy fall apart just because the concept in question can't be scientifically examined?

 

[muichimotsu]

How does the analogy fall apart just because the concept in question can't be scientifically examined?

Because you're comparing what is a scientific description of variable properties of subatomic particles on a quantum level with an entity that either is supernatural or is effectively reduced in scale to something akin to quantum mechanics in how it functions.

It's like trying to compare me in terms of a computer, I wasn't made in a factory, the computer was

 

[Strathos]

Because you're comparing what is a scientific description of variable properties of subatomic particles on a quantum level with an entity that either is supernatural or is effectively reduced in scale to something akin to quantum mechanics in how it functions.

It's like trying to compare me in terms of a computer, I wasn't made in a factory, the computer was

You don't seem to grasp the point of an analogy. It doesn't mean that the things being compared have to be identical, they just have to share certain properties (in this case, being singular, yet separate).

 

[Ken-1122]

The Trinity is confusing. But there is one analogy that I find can be helpful.

If you are familiar with quantum physics, it states that individual particles can be in a state of superposition, where they literally exist in more than 1 state at the same time

What about for those of us who do not understand Quantum Physics? Can you provide an explanation for us? Do you see anything wrong with the explanations I provided on post #14 and #15? If so, what?

You may have heard of Schrodinger's Cat, which is a thought experiment extrapolating this principle to the macro scale, in which it's posited that a cat can be both dead and alive simultaneously.

How did the guys who came up with the Trinity actually explain it back then? They obviously didn’t know or Quantum Physics; it didn’t exist back then, yet they obviously understood the Trinity hence their ability to invent it. So how do you suppose they were able to explain it? Again; do you agree with my explanation on posts #14 &15? If not, please explain why.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus never claimed to do anything more than what the Father expected of Him, a conduit of sorts. He set an example of what the Father expected of us, putting His will before our own. He built His church,not on the will of man but the will of the Father. The Father's truth, not man's. He only followed the will of the Father, not even His own. That applied in his mortal life and will apply in the Kingdom where He will sit as a King in His Father's domain. This is what is meant to be of importance to mankind, not instead reverse engineering what God may be. That detracts from what God expects of us.

 

[Strathos]

What about for those of us who do not understand Quantum Physics? Can you provide an explanation for us? Do you see anything wrong with the explanations I provided on post #14 and #15? If so, what?

How did the guys who came up with the Trinity actually explain it back then? They obviously didn’t know or Quantum Physics; it didn’t exist back then, yet they obviously understood the Trinity hence their ability to invent it. So how do you suppose they were able to explain it? Again; do you agree with my explanation on posts #14 &15? If not, please explain why.

It's just an analogy, it doesn't truly explain how it works.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's just an analogy, it doesn't truly explain how it works.

Again; my explanation on post #14 and #15, do you agree or disagree.

 

[Strathos]

Those analogies deal with groups so no, that doesn't really fit.

 

[Ken-1122]

Those analogies deal with groups so no, that doesn't really fit.

How are 9 persons equaling 1 Judiciary Branch different than 3 persons equaling 1 God?

 

[timothyu]

How are 9 persons equaling 1 Judiciary Branch different than 3 persons equaling 1 God?

Are not the judges on equal footing while God has distinctive abilities focusing on the Father?

 

[Ken-1122]

Are not the judges on equal footing while God has distinctive abilities focusing on the Father?

So if we looked past the issue of each Judge having equal power, and recognize that aspect does not apply to the Godhead, would it be a pretty accurate comparison? Because this type of an analogy would be so much easier to understand as opposed to trying to understand quantum mechanics and comparing that to the Trinity IMO.

 

[timothyu]

So if we looked past the issue of each Judge having equal power, and recognize that aspect does not apply to the Godhead, would it be a pretty accurate comparison?

No.. more akin to an owner of a company with his/her board of directors and a CEO.

 

[muichimotsu]

You don't seem to grasp the point of an analogy. It doesn't mean that the things being compared have to be identical, they just have to share certain properties (in this case, being singular, yet separate).

Singular, yet separate does not mean they have different identities as God, Jesus and Holy Spirit are described to have. The problem is that analogies tend to get into compositional fallacies if you make remote inferences between them as conclusive rather than speculative.

Again, Modalism seems far more consistent to this analogy than the idea that the entities in question are both separate and identical. If Jesus was just a manifestation/mode of God rather than a separate independent entity that was nonetheless intertwined and equal with God, there wouldn't be the logical headache that violates one of the basic principles we otherwise hold, non-contradiction, A cannot be not-A

 

[Ken-1122]

No.. more akin to an owner of a company with his/her board of directors and a CEO.

So what is the owner, the board, and a CEO?

 

[Strathos]

How are 9 persons equaling 1 Judiciary Branch different than 3 persons equaling 1 God?

Because a Judiciary Branch is not a person, and God is not a group.

Singular, yet separate does not mean they have different identities as God, Jesus and Holy Spirit are described to have. The problem is that analogies tend to get into compositional fallacies if you make remote inferences between them as conclusive rather than speculative.

Again, Modalism seems far more consistent to this analogy than the idea that the entities in question are both separate and identical. If Jesus was just a manifestation/mode of God rather than a separate independent entity that was nonetheless intertwined and equal with God, there wouldn't be the logical headache that violates one of the basic principles we otherwise hold, non-contradiction, A cannot be not-A

Well, according to quantum physics, that's not exactly true.

 

[muichimotsu]

Because a Judiciary Branch is not a person, and God is not a group.



Well, according to quantum physics, that's not exactly true.

If God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in different places at the same time in the Gospels and yet they're all God in the sense of essence rather than accident or such, it seems like it fits into your quantum physics example, even if by that logic, it means one is reducing the supposed divine mystery of the Trinity to things comprehensible by humans and takes away some of that awe and such.

 

[fwGod]

So I've always been confused on the matter but never really reached out to ask and if I did, I would've still not understood it but the question is, you know how Jesus Christ talks to God, His father numerous times throughout the Holy Bible, well, is Jesus Christ talking to Himself? If Jesus Christ is God in human form and if He is talking to God, His Father, then isn't He conversing with Himself in two separate areas, one on Earth and one in Heaven? Please help me understand this.

Jesus in the flesh was born by virgin birth from the word of God. As such He had no sin nature. That is divinity intact.

However, in the flesh He had set aside His divine privileges so he was subject to conditions that all humans experience such as needing to eat and drink, needing to rest or sleep, and He was tempted of the devil, yet he did not sin.

He was the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world so in that capacity He had to be subject to death on the cross. If He had the fullness of His divinity He could not have died in our place and on our behalf.

So during His earthly ministry while He was on the earth He was the Son of God. And when He prayed, He prayed to the Father in heaven. When He prayed He spoke the word of God to the Father, and the Father heard Him.

On the cross He died. After the third day He rose again. He was raised up having a glorified body which no longer had blood running through His veins for it had been fully poured out for the forgiveness of the sins of all mankind.

In that glorified body He could walk through walls and yet eat food as any other person can.

After a time spent with the disciples He ascended to heaven and to God's throne. There God the Father called Him God and told Him to sit at His right hand on the Throne that they both share.

 

[Ken-1122]

Because a Judiciary Branch is not a person, and God is not a group.

If God is singular, you can't have Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirt as God. One of the laws of logic states you can't be "A" and "-A" at the same time.
What Are the Three Laws of Logic?
IOW either you are wrong about God being singular, or the Trinity is wrong about the 3 God heads.