Christian preaching...

[ToddNotTodd]

And this is why I said nonChristians shouldn't be asked what it is to be Christlike. When you got folks saying that they USED to be Christians, it should be obvious why we are not to ask nonChristians this.

Nope, not obvious. Please explain.

Oh wait, you're not saying that people who used to be Christians weren't Christians at all, are you? Because that would be silly. If that's the case, I can safely disregard anyone's claim to be Christian, since I don't know if in the future any particular person will deconvert...

does not give revelation that contradicts His already given revelation. Christians might have some idea of who they think meets the requirements of the AntiChrist. But the identity of the AntiChrist will not be revealed until AFTER Christians have been raptured.

So you're saying that Christians sometimes think they've gotten a message from God, but really didn't? That's my point. Since you can't be sure of any extra Biblical information you think you've received, you can point to the Bible to get all the information you need in order to be Christ like. And since the Bible isn't in code, non-believers can get the same information.

 

[CShephard53]

But Charles Manson is not Christ. The Bible says 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14

Wasn't Christ human? If so, isn't His character also human and therefore understandable by other humans, regardless of spirituality?

 

[Zaac]

Wasn't Christ human? If so, isn't His character also human and therefore understandable by other humans, regardless of spirituality?

His character is Holy. And that holiness can only be understood and obtained by the indwelling.

That's one of the reasons folks can think they can be Christians one day and not be Christians the next.

 

[CShephard53]

His character is Holy. And that holiness can only be understood and obtained by the indwelling.

That's one of the reasons folks can think they can be Christians one day and not be Christians the next.

Your argument makes no sense to me. I don't understand how a few unbelievers on this thread, under your argument, could possibly call Christ humble.

 

[Zaac]

Nope, not obvious. Please explain.

Oh wait, you're not saying that people who used to be Christians weren't Christians at all, are you? Because that would be silly. If that's the case, I can safely disregard anyone's claim to be Christian, since I don't know if in the future any particular person will deconvert...

Todd, no one can be a Christian and then not be a Christian. You don't become a Christian by any work of your own.

If you can't save yourself, you can't unsave yourself.

The Bible says Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

So you're saying that Christians sometimes think they've gotten a message from God, but really didn't? That's my point.

And this is why the word of God as given in the Bible has to be authoritative. If you dont have a standard, truth becomes subjective. Jesus, the Living Word, has given the written word, the Bible so that we know what His truth is.

If somebody tells you something that is inconsistent with what the Bible says, it is not of God.

Since you can't be sure of any extra Biblical information you think you've received, you can point to the Bible to get all the information you need in order to be Christ like. And since the Bible isn't in code, non-believers can get the same information.

Nope. According to God's word, you can't have the right understanding of the things of the Spirit without the Spirit.

 

[Zaac]

Your argument makes no sense to me. I don't understand how a few unbelievers on this thread, under your argument, could possibly call Christ humble.

They can call Christ humble from a human perspective. But they can't understand the true meaning of the character of Christ without Christ.

That's why you have so many foks running around saying they are in love and they don't know Christ.

You can't be in the One Who is Love without being in Him. They have a filial understanding of love because they may love a family member. But they cannot understand the Agape love that Christ is without Christ.

There is and always will be a very DEFINITE difference between what nonChristians think Christians should be and what a Holy SPirit discernment of the word says that Christians are.

 

[CShephard53]

They can call Christ humble from a human perspective. But they can't understand the true meaning of the character of Christ without Christ.

Can we ever understand the true meaning of God's character? Even as Christians? I do not feel that I can ever comprehend it. Thus, how can you claim unbelievers are any different?

That's why you have so many foks running around saying they are in love and they don't know Christ.

Enlighten me, I don't understand.

You can't be in the One Who is Love without being in Him. They have a filial understanding of love because they may love a family member. But they cannot understand the Agape love that Christ is without Christ.

I am a Christian, and I do not understand the kind of love Christ demonstrated at the cross, not fully, and I don't think I ever will until I see God in heaven. What makes me any different from Todd or Quotana?

There is and always will be a very DEFINITE difference between what nonChristians think Christians should be and what a Holy SPirit discernment of the word says that Christians are.

Is there? What is the difference? Compare and contrast.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Todd, no one can be a Christian and then not be a Christian. You don't become a Christian by any work of your own.

If you can't save yourself, you can't unsave yourself.

So you're saying that I was either never a Christian, or I still am a Christian?

I have a hard time believing I'm still a Christian, since I don't believe Christ was a god. And if I never was a Christian, my original point still stands. No one can call themselves a Christian, since you have no idea if you'll deconvert in the future.

And this is why the word of God as given in the Bible has to be authoritative. If you dont have a standard, truth becomes subjective. Jesus, the Living Word, has given the written word, the Bible so that we know what His truth is.

If somebody tells you something that is inconsistent with what the Bible says, it is not of God.

Exactly my point.

Nope. According to God's word, you can't have the right understanding of the things of the Spirit without the Spirit.

Are you saying the "right understanding" has something to do with extra Biblical knowledge, or in reading comprehension? In any event, since there are multiple interpretations of the Bible (you yourself have arguments with other Christians on these boards), how do you tell which Christians have the "spirit" and which don't?

 

[Zebra1552]

Are you saying the "right understanding" has something to do with extra Biblical knowledge, or in reading comprehension? In any event, since there are multiple interpretations of the Bible (you yourself have arguments with other Christians on these boards), how do you tell which Christians have the "spirit" and which don't?

I would love to hear his answer to this.

 

[Zaac]

Can we ever understand the true meaning of God's character? Even as Christians? I do not feel that I can ever comprehend it. Thus, how can you claim unbelievers are any different?

But cause as a Christian, you ARE different. You are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they are not. And it is that indwelling that brings discernment. As God sanctifies us into His likeness and burns off those parts of us that are not like Him, you come into a deeper understanding of His character and who He is as your relationship with Him deepens.

Unsaved people cannot do this.

To be Holy is to be set apart. And as a Christian, you are called to be Holy as your Father in heaven is Holy. Unsaved people cannot be Holy. So yes indeed, unbelievers are different.

And that's one of the main problems with the Body of Christ. we don't realize that we are supposed to be Holy and set apart and we end up looking just like nonBelievers.

We are to be different because we are to be Holy. But too many in this forum do think there is no difference and this is why Christians are errantly affirming the things that nonbelievers say that GOD says are wrong.

Enlighten me, I don't understand.

The Bible says that God is Love. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8

I am a Christian, and I do not understand the kind of love Christ demonstrated at the cross, not fully, and I don't think I ever will until I see God in heaven. What makes me any different from Todd or Quotana?

And you're not supposed to fully understand it until you get your glorified body and come into a full understanding. But you can have a understanding now also. That's part of spiritually maturing. The more we live in relationship with Christ and obey, the more we understand.

Is there? What is the difference? Compare and contrast.

[/QUOTE]

You can know and understand the things of the Spirit because you are indwelled by the Spirit. They cannot.

 

[CShephard53]

But cause as a Christian, you ARE different. You are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they are not. And it is that indwelling that brings discernment. As God sanctifies us into His likeness and burns off those parts of us that are not like Him, you come into a deeper understanding of His character and who He is as your relationship with Him deepens.

Unsaved people cannot do this.

To be Holy is to be set apart. And as a Christian, you are called to be Holy as your Father in heaven is Holy. Unsaved people cannot be Holy. So yes indeed, unbelievers are different.

And that's one of the main problems with the Body of Christ. we don't realize that we are supposed to be Holy and set apart and we end up looking just like nonBelievers.

We are to be different because we are to be Holy. But too many in this forum do think there is no difference and this is why Christians are errantly affirming the things that nonbelievers say that GOD says are wrong.

You did not answer my questions. Can believers understand the true meaning of Christ's character? How can you claim unbelievers are different from believers if believers also cannot comprehend all things spiritual?

The Bible says that God is Love. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8

So how does this apply to people falling in love? Or apply to unbelievers?

And you're not supposed to fully understand it until you get your glorified body and come into a full understanding. But you can have a understanding now also. That's part of spiritually maturing. The more we live in relationship with Christ and obey, the more we understand.

If I also cannot fully understand it, how is my lack of understanding any different from an unbeliever's?

You can know and understand the things of the Spirit because you are indwelled by the Spirit. They cannot.

That merely tells me that there is a difference. Show this difference, compare the understanding of a believer with that of an unbeliever.

 

[Zaac]

You did not answer my questions. Can believers understand the true meaning of Christ's character?

Yes. You simply won't get a complete understanding until you get your glorified body.

How can you claim unbelievers are different from believers if believers also cannot comprehend all things spiritual?

Huh? You really don't think there is a difference between nonBelievers and Believers?

Believers can't understand the things of the Spirit. You can. That doesn't mean that you will have a full understanding and have all the answers.

So how does this apply to people falling in love? Or apply to unbelievers?

Nonbelievers think they are in love when it is impossible for them to be in love if they are not in the One Who is Love. That doesn't mean they can't love because everyone possesses the ability to have a filial love. But to have the Agape love demands the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If I also cannot fully understand it, how is my lack of understanding any different from an unbeliever's?

Because in order to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior demands that you comprehend that He loves you even when you don't deserve to be loved. There are just concepts of truth that only the Truth can give you.

That merely tells me that there is a difference. Show this difference, compare the understanding of a believer with that of an unbeliever.

If it were possible to physically show you the difference , then it would be possible to physically show that which is Spirit.

If the understanding were the same, there wouldn't still be folks who are unbelievers.

 

[Zaac]

So you're saying that I was either never a Christian, or I still am a Christian?

There are two types of people in this world: those who are saved and those who aren't. Salvation is not a retail item. You can't get it and give it back if you don't want it.

You can't save yourself. You can't unsave yourself.

I have a hard time believing I'm still a Christian, since I don't believe Christ was a god.

Then you never did believe it.

And if I never was a Christian, my original point still stands. No one can call themselves a Christian, since you have no idea if you'll deconvert in the future.

Sure they can call themselves Christians. This is what I mean about the inability of nonChristians to understand the things of the Spirit. If you have been saved by Christ, there is nothing that you nor the rest of the world can do to pluck you from His hand.

You don't follow Christ now because you never did.

Are you saying the "right understanding" has something to do with extra Biblical knowledge, or in reading comprehension? In any event, since there are multiple interpretations of the Bible (you yourself have arguments with other Christians on these boards), how do you tell which Christians have the "spirit" and which don't?

Nope. Let me explain it to you this way. If I wanted to know what the author of a book meant by something that was said in his book, I'd ask and trust the author before I trusted someone else to tell me what the correct meaning was intended to be.

Likewise, GOD is the author of the Bible. it is His word. If I want a correct understanding of His word, I will ask HIM. I'm indwelled by Him. The Holy Spirit is the deliverer of truth.

This is why nonbelievers can have their interpretation of what they THINK God's word means. But they can't have GOD's KNOWING about what HE means.

Only those indwelled by GOD can have this knowledge. And you will know when they are listening to GOD or themselves by whether or not what they say contradicts something else He says in His word.

GOD does not author confusion. Men do.

 

[CShephard53]

Yes. You simply won't get a complete understanding until you get your glorified body.

Then the answer is no, not yes.

Huh? You really don't think there is a difference between nonBelievers and Believers?

Believers can't understand the things of the Spirit. You can. That doesn't mean that you will have a full understanding and have all the answers.

I do not believe there is enough of a difference between believers and unbelievers to warrant the claim that unbelievers cannot know Christ's character and teachings. Feel free to conduct research, but I stand by the question in the original post and would appreciate it if you stop calling it pointless. This is not your thread, and you are not obligated to respond. Furthermore, this thread is asking for opinions from unbelievers, and you are not.

Nonbelievers think they are in love when it is impossible for them to be in love if they are not in the One Who is Love. That doesn't mean they can't love because everyone possesses the ability to have a filial love. But to have the Agape love demands the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Please do not make divisive claims in my thread, as the purpose of this thread is to better understand what unbelievers expect from believers, not alienate them with claims that you're better than they are.

Because in order to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior demands that you comprehend that He loves you even when you don't deserve to be loved. There are just concepts of truth that only the Truth can give you.

Aside from being incredibly circular, that is quite off topic.

If it were possible to physically show you the difference , then it would be possible to physically show that which is Spirit.

If the understanding were the same, there wouldn't still be folks who are unbelievers.

Understanding does not automatically beget belief and trust, lest I believe in and trust your average violent criminal.

 

[Zaac]

Then the answer is no, not yes.

The answer is yes. You seem to be trying hard to ut yourself in the same category as lost people. There's no reason for the Holy Spirit to deliver truth if you as a asaved person has the same understanding as a lost person.

I do not believe there is enough of a difference between believers and unbelievers to warrant the claim that unbelievers cannot know Christ's character and teachings.

I didn't say they couldn't know His teachings. They can know OF them, but
they aren't gonna have a right understanding of them that aligns with the WHOLE of God's word.

And as for the character of Christ, you can't understand the humiltiy of Christ without understanding what He did for you on the Cross. If they had an understanding of the things of Christ, they would be Christians.

Feel free to conduct research, but I stand by the question in the original post and would appreciate it if you stop calling it pointless.

It is pointless. This is what I mean about you guys continuing to affirm things that are not of Christ. YOU are supposed to be doing the salting. YOU are supposed to be the one telling the unsaved about Christ. It is crazy to think that someone who rejects Christ as Lord and Savior is going to tell you what is Christlike. They simply cannot have that understanding.

This is not your thread, and you are not obligated to respond. Furthermore, this thread is asking for opinions from unbelievers, and you are not.

No need to get snippy. It's an open forum and I have just as much right to answer as anyone else. You seem to have been fine with me replying until I started saying something you didn't think.

Please do not make divisive claims in my thread, as the purpose of this thread is to better understand what unbelievers expect from believers, not alienate them with claims that you're better than they are.

What do you mean divisive claims? Should there be uniting claims about those who reject Christ and those who accept Him?

Do people not understand that you're supposed to be set apart from unbelievers? Do people not understand that you are not supposed to be yoked to unbelievers?

Gosh, belief in Jesus Christ is about as divisive an issue as there is.

Aside from being incredibly circular, that is quite off topic.

You asked. I explained.

Understanding does not automatically beget belief and trust, lest I believe in and trust your average violent criminal.

Understanding the things of Christ demands Christ. They don't have Christ and thus can't have a right understanding.

 

[Zebra1552]

The answer is yes. You seem to be trying hard to ut yourself in the same category as lost people. There's no reason for the Holy Spirit to deliver truth if you as a asaved person has the same understanding as a lost person.






I didn't say they couldn't know His teachings. They can know OF them, but
they aren't gonna have a right understanding of them that aligns with the WHOLE of God's word.

And as for the character of Christ, you can't understand the humiltiy of Christ without understanding what He did for you on the Cross. If they had an understanding of the things of Christ, they would be Christians.



It is pointless. This is what I mean about you guys continuing to affirm things that are not of Christ. YOU are supposed to be doing the salting. YOU are supposed to be the one telling the unsaved about Christ. It is crazy to think that someone who rejects Christ as Lord and Savior is going to tell you what is Christlike. They simply cannot have that understanding.



No need to get snippy. It's an open forum and I have just as much right to answer as anyone else. You seem to have been fine with me replying until I started saying something you didn't think.






What do you mean divisive claims? Should there be uniting claims about those who reject Christ and those who accept Him?

Do people not understand that you're supposed to be set apart from unbelievers? Do people not understand that you are not supposed to be yoked to unbelievers?

Gosh, belief in Jesus Christ is about as divisive an issue as there is.





You asked. I explained.







Understanding the things of Christ demands Christ. They don't have Christ and thus can't have a right understanding.

Psh. And YOU said my claim about you telling non-Christians they can't love was a false accusation. Where do you get off telling people they can't understand things and can't love? What gives you ESP, are you Professor Xavier now?

 

[allhart]

Nope, not obvious. Please explain.

Oh wait, you're not saying that people who used to be Christians weren't Christians at all, are you? Because that would be silly. If that's the case, I can safely disregard anyone's claim to be Christian, since I don't know if in the future any particular person will deconvert...



So you're saying that Christians sometimes think they've gotten a message from God, but really didn't? That's my point. Since you can't be sure of any extra Biblical information you think you've received, you can point to the Bible to get all the information you need in order to be Christ like. And since the Bible isn't in code, non-believers can get the same information.

Living for the eternal perspective, Christ like.

 

[Zaac]

Psh. And YOU said my claim about you telling non-Christians they can't love was a false accusation.

And there you go with your false accusations and bearing false witness again.

Where do you get off telling people they can't understand things and can't love? What gives you ESP, are you Professor Xavier now?

If you have an issue about this, start another thread.

 

[Zebra1552]

And there you go with your false accusations and bearing false witness again.

Sure I am...

Nonbelievers think they are in love when it is impossible for them to be in love if they are not in the One Who is Love. That doesn't mean they can't love because everyone possesses the ability to have a filial love. But to have the Agape love demands the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

What's next, I can't read?

Man you can't do anything about me saying what God's word says. It's not my fault that you don't understand what God's word says about love. If you have an issue about this, start another thread.

And have you insulting non-Christians? Dream on!

 

[Zaac]

Sure I am...

I know you are. That's why I said it.

What's next, I can't read?

Apparently not.

And have you insulting non-Christians?

Ain't my fault that folks are insulted by the truth. Christ is exclusive. Most folks who reject Him don't care to hear what He says.

Dream on!

I will. For I have a dream that Christ will continue to be preached in the face of those who want Christians to stop preaching Christ.