Christian persecution

[JoyJuice]

Some Christian denominations, like the Catholic Church, have beliefs that aren't necessarily expressly stated in the Bible. For example, Catholics believe in Purgatory--something that is not in the Bible.

...yes, I understand.

Although the hiearchy has made strides in accepting things such as evolution or taking archaeolgical evidence that isn't quite like doctrine as fact, it seems Catholic parishoners in the 98 percent usage of contraceptives are ahead of the hiearchy this time.

 

[JoyJuice]

OK please.

It is you cannot EAT your cake and HAVE it too.

I can easily have my cake and eat it too because it is MINE to eat.

But once I have eaten it I no longer have it.

Thanks.

Just make sure you floss after eating.

 

[pennmark]

Although the hiearchy has made strides in accepting things such as evolution or taking archaeolgical evidence that isn't quite like doctrine as fact, it seems Catholic parishoners in the 98 percent usage of contraceptives are ahead of the hiearchy this time.

Lust is a sin, and it is something you can go to Hell for. Because the Church is in the business of saving souls, it is not going to lie and tell them that something lustful is not sinful, even if that's what they want to hear.

 

[stiggywiggy]

OK please.

It is you cannot EAT your cake and HAVE it too.

I can easily have my cake and eat it too because it is MINE to eat.

But once I have eaten it I no longer have it.

But if I have not received my fair share of cake, I should hopefully have your cake and eat mine too.

 

[JoyJuice]

Lust is a sin, and it is something you can go to Hell for. Because the Church is in the business of saving souls, it is not going to lie and tell them that something lustful is not sinful, even if that's what they want to hear.

Explain to me exactly what Lust is to the Catholic church?

 

[pennmark]

Explain to me exactly what Lust is to the Catholic church?

I'm not qualified to answer your question.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Which is precisely why I can never be Catholic.

 

[JoyJuice]

I'm not qualified to answer your question.

But you're Catholic.

Forgive me if I am in error, but I can only assume you ascribe to a doctrine you really don't understand?

 

[pennmark]

But you're Catholic.

Forgive me if I am in error, but I can only assume you ascribe to a doctrine you really don't undestand?

Do you think just because I'm Catholic I'm an expert on everything Catholic? The Church has volumes ... and I mean many volumes ... of writings which it considers sacred. I haven't read the writings of all the saints. If you want to know exactly what the Church believes, contact the Vatican.

 

[JoyJuice]

Do you think just because I'm Catholic I'm an expert on everything Catholic? The Church has volumes ... and I mean many volumes ... of writings which it considers sacred. I haven't read the writings of all the saints. If you want to know exactly what the Church believes, contact the Vatican.

I am pretty much agnostic, but it I were to prescribe to a particular faith in discussion of an aspect of my faith as crucial as this, I would tend to understand its tenants; especially this one seeing our God given innate desire to promulgate as any other species. What the Catholic Church is saying, and even in the confines of marriage, is any sexual relationship outside the explicit purpose of procreation, is lust.

Catholics use contraceptives at a rate of 98% in defiance to the church, and I quite sure they are 100% in defiance to sex only for procreation purposes of the church.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Do you think just because I'm Catholic I'm an expert on everything Catholic?

This is a simple matter of theology that you are speaking with authority, yet when asked about your response is to "talk to the Vatican," because you don't know.

If I were you, I'd stop repeating theology I couldn't defend.

 

[pennmark]

Catholics use contraceptives at a rate of 98% in defiance to the church, and I quite sure they are 100% in defiance to sex only for procreation purposes of the church.

Where do you get these numbers?

The Church isn't going to lie to people and tell them that something lustfull is not lust, no matter what people want to believe themselves.

 

[disciple2011]

Where do you get these numbers?

The Church isn't going to lie to people and tell them that something lustfull is not lust, no matter what people want to believe themselves.

Probably from articles based on:

Contraceptive Use Is the Norm Among Religious Women

No matter how powerful a person might believe that their religion is, the human will always be the final arbiter unless they are totally mad.

And women are the prime drivers of the world. They have conceived eery man born. No man has conceived once.

 

[pennmark]

No matter how powerful a person might believe that their religion is, the human will always be the final arbiter unless they are totally mad.

The LORD has the final say in this matter.

The Church will not tell you that something sinful is not sinful no matter how much you want to believe it.

 

[JoyJuice]

The LORD has the final say in this matter.

The Church will not tell you that something sinful is not sinful no matter how much you want to believe it.

Hold the phone here. I realize this is the religion of your choice and you see the church "will not tell you that something sinful is not sinful" but at the same time a faith based on the Bible should not be telling you something that is not found in the Bible, has no Biblical basis, and is in reality a doctrine they construed.

It's bad enough there are over 30,000 different denominations based on scripture disagreements, just imagine if everyone just made things up...or maybe they do.

 

[pennmark]

Hold the phone here. I realize this is the religion of your choice and you see the church "will not tell you that something sinful is not sinful" but at the same time a faith based on the Bible should not be telling you something that is not found in the Bible, has no Biblical basis, and is in reality a doctrine they construed.

It's bad enough there are over 30,000 different denominations based on scripture disagreements, just imagine if everyone just made things up...or maybe they do.

A lot of Christian denominations have beliefs that are not entirely based on scripture. Martin Luther "made things up". Joseph Smith "made things up". I wouldn't say the Church's position on contraception has "no Biblical basis".

 

[JoyJuice]

A lot of Christian denominations have beliefs that are not entirely based on scripture. Martin Luther "made things up". Joseph Smith "made things up". I wouldn't say the Church's position on contraception has "no Biblical basis".

(emboldened me)

If you look at the catechism, the reference is to the writings of church fathers, not the Bible.

...but I will leave this alone, it is up to you the individual. That is what religious freedom is about.

 

[tulc]

The LORD has the final say in this matter.

The Church will not tell you that something sinful is not sinful no matter how much you want to believe it. (emph. added)

Sure they do: the Church says it's ok for one set of Christians to kill another set of Christians if their countries leaders tell them to.
tulc(has a few other examples)

 

[Phred]

A lot of Christian denominations have beliefs that are not entirely based on scripture. Martin Luther "made things up". Joseph Smith "made things up". I wouldn't say the Church's position on contraception has "no Biblical basis".

And so we're back to, "my religion is the correct one and yours is made up."

Sorry, but you guys have been fighting this battle for centuries now and you're still right back where you started. Only at least you've put the guns away. Bravo!

As far as I'm concerned it's all made up. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that God, "the Lord" or any deity at all had any influence on any holy books anywhere, anytime, at all. You just happen to believe that YOUR book is the correct one. And why do you believe that? Most likely because you live surrounded by others who also believe that.

So your church has a position on contraception. Big whoop. That's for you and the other members of your church. As soon as you try to export it I have every right to start in on what a flaming crock that position is. Because now you're trying to make me do something that I don't want to do based upon something that some guys made up a few thousand years ago. I would keep quiet on the matter and just let you keep to yourselves... but you refuse to keep to yourselves.

See how it works?... cross the line and the world has every right to pound you. Stay on the other side of the line and you can do whatever you wish as long as you don't harm anyone.

 

[Phred]

The LORD has the final say in this matter.

The Church will not tell you that something sinful is not sinful no matter how much you want to believe it.

June 20, 1866, the Holy Office (now called the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a statement that said:

"Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons.... It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.​

December 5, 1484

"[m]any persons of both sexes, unmindful of their own salvation and straying from the Catholic Faith, have abandoned themselves to devils, incubi and succubi, and by their incantations, spells, conjurations, and other accursed charms and crafts, enormities and horrid offences, have slain infants yet in the mother's womb, as also the offspring of cattle, have blasted the produce of the earth, the grapes of the vine, the fruits of the trees, nay, men and women, beasts of burthen, herd-beasts, as well as animals of other kinds, vineyards, orchards, meadows, pasture-land, corn, wheat, and all other cereals; these wretches furthermore afflict and torment men and women, beasts of burthen, herd-beasts, as well as animals of other kinds, with terrible and piteous pains and sore diseases, both internal and external; they hinder men from performing the sexual act and women from conceiving, whence husbands cannot know their wives nor wives receive their husbands; over and above this, they blasphemously renounce that Faith which is theirs by the Sacrament of Baptism, and at the instigation of the Enemy of Mankind they do not shrink from committing and perpetrating the foulest abominations and filthiest excesses to the deadly peril of their own souls, whereby they outrage the Divine Majesty and are a cause of scandal and danger to very many (...) the abominations and enormities in question remain unpunished not without open danger to the souls of many and peril of eternal damnation."​

Let's burn witches and keep slaves. The church, who wouldn't tell us that something sinful wasn't... says it's ok.