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Christian Naturism

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paleodoxy said:
Lilly, perhaps you already read my definition (above) of modesty from I Tim.2:9 and simply want to hear from the specific person you addressed. I just wanted to make you aware (in case you missed it) that I address this question in our thread (in my previous post).

Oh, I didn't see that.....:)

However, I overall agree, some parts I disagree. If you wear anything that can cause someone to lust or produce some type of desire, that is immodest. So the amt. of skin does have something to do w/ it. That doesn't mean not wear bathing suits and such...but bathing suits aren't something I'd consider modest either, same w/ nudity and such. Because both can cause people to desire you in inapproriate ways or help induce them in thinking lustful thoughts.
 
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dujavi

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chipmunk said:
Sometimes not all the modesty in the world will stop someone from lusting. Short of wearing a burlap sack I have found no remedy for men who want to stare at my chest. Baggy clothing, restricting bras, etc... no help.
I agree, men can fantasize or whatever and imagine things that should not be thought about. But I think we should still make sure that our clothing is appropriate so we can't be blamed for having caused someone else to sin. If we dress modestly then I think it can't be our fault if we also Act modestly.
chipmunk said:

4. As a female that would just be gross during certain periods of the month.
I think it would be wrong also:
[BIBLE]Leviticus 18:19[/BIBLE]
There are more verses on this too.
 
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paleodoxy

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I think it would be wrong also:
[bible]Leviticus 18:19[/bible]
There are more verses on this too.

The Leviticus' 18 "uncover nakedness" prohibition is a euphemism for (incestuous, in this context) "sexual relations". Leviticus isn't condemning mere nudity.
 
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dujavi

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gengwall said:
You need to take a look at the Hebrew underlying all the verses that you quoted.
Ok, I will.
gengwall said:
The Hebrew word for naked in the Levitical laws against incest, etc., is yet another word. It is also tranlsated "immoral" or "immorality". It is a Hebrew word that relates specifically to immoral sexual behavior.
Is this what your talking about?
gengwall said:
Nakedness is often associated with very good things. For example, your contention that nakedness is never commanded is false. Isaiah was commanded by God to go naked and prophesy for three years. Saul also prophesied naked. Micah went naked as a lament for Israel's sins.
I'm still not sure that it is ok for everyone. God hasn't commanded me to be naked, I'm not lamenting for Israel's sins, and I'm not prophesing, so I don't fit these situations. Although these are situations where nakedness could be called good, I'm still not sure that it is always good.
gengwall said:
And as stated before, baptisms in biblical times were performed naked so that nothing would stand in the way of the cleansing action of the water.
Is the purpose of being baptized to be cleansed? Jesus's blood is supposed to wash us clean.
gengwall said:
The bottom line is that nakedness is portrayed in both positive and negative contexts in scripture. But nowhere is it universally condemned (or, for that matter, approved of). In general, innocent public nakedness is a good thing in scripture.
Curious about the verse that says it is good. You may have already mentioned it, but I forgot if you did or not.
 
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paleodoxy

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However, I overall agree, some parts I disagree. If you wear anything that can cause someone to lust or produce some type of desire, that is immodest. So the amt. of skin does have something to do w/ it.

LILLY:

Actually, we may agree on more than you think.

The only point I have been trying to emphasize up till now is that skin exposure is not intrinsically evil (i.e., sexually provocative). In other words, the "very good" human figure that God created is not of itself a stimulus to lust.

However, I do agree that when a culture (like ours) succeeds in twisting and perverting our perception of the human body by shaping it into a sex symbol, so that people cannot think of nakedness without thinking about sex, then Christian women walking around in that kind of society need to avoid wearing outfits that are generally considered provocative.

However, in another environment altogether, public nudity may be perfectly fine and appropriate. For Christians given to renewing and reconditioning their minds about nudity, nakedness ceases to be a stumbling block. In a "nudist" or "naturist" setting (like swimming, enjoying a clothes-free beach, or whatever), skin exposure ceases to be an issue because the people-group in this environment do not have the same psychological hang-ups that "outsiders" have.

The naturist environment, in other words, constitutes a completely different culture. So modesty is very much dependent on cultural outlook. And so my reason for agreeing with you also dictates for me the recognition that when Christ adjures us to guard even our thoughts, lest we commit adultery in our hearts, He is not enforcing a modesty "dress-code", but rather making a general warning against perverting the goodness and beauty of creation by desiring "ownership" of what is not ours.

Now, no one is saying by this that naturism makes naturists cease to be human. No one can cease to be human, and part of that natural humanness is the recognition of beauty and attractiveness in the opposite sex. Like anyone else, a naturist can fall into sin by lusting. Our point is simply that nakedness for us is no more an obstacle to purity than a beautiful, fully-clothed female (or male, if you're a woman).

The point is, as long as there is sin in the world, lust will always exist - regardless of what we wear or don't wear.

As James writes, sin is always conceived in the heart -- there is nothing intrinsic to the atomic or molecular make-up of something that "causes" sin and lust. Rather, it is the spiritual "psychology" of a culture that ultimately determines whether or not it will have a wholesome or perverted perspective on nudity.

There was a time when my wife and I would have been shocked to think that we would ever embrace this point of view - and now we are talking about making our first trip this spring to a nude beach! :)

We are REALLY looking forward to the liberating experience of having the sun, wind and water on our bodies without the unnecessary constraint and encumbrance of fabric.
 
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tgg

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Electric Skeptic said:
This is a particularly silly reason to object to naturism. By precisely the same token, a woman seen in a bikini (or shorts, or a sleeveless top, etc., etc., etc., ) is in danger of causing other men to sin. The inevitable consequence is that women should be completely covered, head to toe, so they won't cause any men to sin.

Yeah, I tend to get more lustful feelings for fully-dressed women, including those who wear veils and burkhas.

:p :p


tgg
 
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gengwall

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dujavi said:
Is this what your talking about?
Yes

I'm still not sure that it is ok for everyone. God hasn't commanded me to be naked, I'm not lamenting for Israel's sins, and I'm not prophesing, so I don't fit these situations. Although these are situations where nakedness could be called good, I'm still not sure that it is always good.
And I am not saying it is always good. There is no absolute in the bible about it, good or bad.

Is the purpose of being baptized to be cleansed? Jesus's blood is supposed to wash us clean.
I'm simply pointing out the fact. I am not taking a stance on the actual effect of nude baptism.

Curious about the verse that says it is good. You may have already mentioned it, but I forgot if you did or not.
Not says directly, but the context of nudity in scripture is often neutral to it's morality and sometimes positive.
 
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gengwall

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Below is a list of the "naked" Hebrew words. I have indicated in green those verses where the context of the use is either positive or neutral. Red indicates a bad context. (Of course, these are just my opinions.) In addition, the bold verses are those we have touched on in this thread. Enjoy.

ma'arom (4636) derived from 'arom (6191)
1) naked thing, nakedness
lack of clothing due to poverty
2 Chron 28:15

eyrom (5903) derived from 'arom (6191)
1) naked 2) nakedness
in positive context - innocence
in negative context - loss of innocence, awareness of sin
Ge 3:7,10,11
De 28:48
Ez 16:7,22,
Ez 16:39
Ez 18:7,16
Ez 23:29

`arowm (6174) derived from 'arom (6191)
1) naked, bare
The straightforward sense of having no clothes. A statement of fact.
If negative, nakedness was forced.
Ge 2:25
1 Sa 19:24
Job 1:21 (x2)
Job 22:6
Job 24:7,10
Job 26:6 (referring to inanimate object)
Ec 5:15
Isa 20:2-4
Isa 58:7
Ho 2:3
Am 2:16
Mic 1:8

arah (6168) primitive root
1) To be bare, be nude, uncover, leave destitute, discover, empty, raze, pour out
Often used for the act of emptying something. Statement of fact. Only "naked" references listed
If negative, indicates forced or irresponsible nakedness.
Le 20:19
Ps 37:35 (spreading himself)
La 4:21

Ma'ar (4626) derived from 'arah (6168)
1) bare, naked place, nakedness
Exposed in punishment. Only "naked" references listed
Na 3:5

ervah (6172) derived from 'arah (6168)
1) nakedness, nudity, shame
in positive context - protecting from shame
in negative context - indecent sexual conduct or defilement of another
Used most with "uncover(ed)" and "cover(ed)"
Ge 9:22, 23 (x2)
Ex 20:26 (Uncover)
Ex 28:42
Le 18:6-19 (x24,Uncoverx19)
Le 20:11 (Uncover), 17-21 (x7,Uncoverx5)
De 23:14 (indecent)
De 24:1 (indecent)
1 Sa 20:30 (x3,shamex2)
Isa 20:4 (shame)
Isa 47:3 (x2 - nakedness (Uncover), shame (Uncover))
La 1:8
Ez 16:8 (Cover),
Ez 16:36 (Uncover), 37 (Uncover)
Ez 22:10 (Uncover)
Ez 23:10 (Uncover), 18 (Uncover), 29 (Uncover)
Ho 2:9 (Cover)

eryah (6181) derived from 'arah (6168)
1) bare, nudity, nakedness
literal having no clothes on or being uncovered
If negative, means being unshielded or unprotected by outer covering.
Ez 16:7, 22,(bare)
Ez 16:39 (bare)
Ez: 23:29 (bare)
Mic 1:11
Hab 3:9 (refering to inanimate obj)

Three other obscure words which can mean naked
arel (6188), 'uwr (5783), Ma'owr (4589)
 
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KCDAD

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Lilly of the Valley said:
Well, I wouldn't say it's wrong, so long as your motives are rt. and it's not where it may bother others and such. I personally however, am all for clothes they wore clothes in Bible times and I'll wear them now!....:D
Then why not stick to fig leaves?;)
 
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KCDAD

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Seriously, though, if the problem is our perverted culture that would make being naked a invitation to lust, shouldn't the repeated exposure of normal people naked be educational, in that it would make us realize that sexuality is NOT about skin? Isn't it our puritaincal views about breasts, ankles or whatever that makes sexualize those particular accumulations of skin, fat, muscle and bone? PERHAPS BY GETTING RID OF CLOTHES, PUSH UP BRAS, PADDED SHOULDERS, GIRDLES AND HIGH HEELS WE COULD LEARN TO APPRECIATE PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE RATHER THAN WHAT THEY APPEAR TO US TO BE.
 
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chipmunk

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dujavi said:
I agree, men can fantasize or whatever and imagine things that should not be thought about. But I think we should still make sure that our clothing is appropriate so we can't be blamed for having caused someone else to sin. If we dress modestly then I think it can't be our fault if we also Act modestly.

I think it would be wrong also:
[bible]Leviticus 18:19[/bible]
There are more verses on this too.

There is a difference between wrong and gross. I would think that for cleanliness reasons and health hazards menstruating woman would have to at least be partially clothed. If she wasn't, well, you can use your imagination. Of course, certain methods of dealing with menstration would be more viable in a naturist setting than would others. Would it be wrong for her to do that though? Well, if she had an STD or other blood born illness I'd call her irresponsible and wrong. Barring all of those scenarios, I just would personally find it distasteful/gross. I would think there would be so much to clean up after. Ugh!
 
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tgg

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chipmunk said:
There is a difference between wrong and gross. I would think that for cleanliness reasons and health hazards menstruating woman would have to at least be partially clothed.


This is true. Nudist and naturist establishments do demand that women don a pair of shorts or bikini bottoms when they are menstruating.

If she wasn't, well, you can use your imagination. Of course, certain methods of dealing with menstration would be more viable in a naturist setting than would others. Would it be wrong for her to do that though? Well, if she had an STD or other blood born illness I'd call her irresponsible and wrong.

Same here. If I was to set up a naturist business, I would want to get a medical check on everyone before they joined so that they (especially kids) would not be vulnerable to catching STDs. Then again, nudist clubs have their patrons put towels over the chairs before they sit down on them.

So yes, I do think there are times when clothes of some sort are necessary for health reasons.

Whilst we are still on this thread, I was wondering what you all think of guys who get erections when in a naturist place. Do you think they ought to be reprimanded, or tossed out, or just ignored unless they are making a nuisance of themselves by parading them around?


tgg
 
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KCDAD

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Lust is not about nudity, it is about treating another human being as an object of self pleasure. Whether a woman wears a burkha or a bikini, she may lusted after by someone who wants to gratify him or herself. Pedophilia, necrophilia, or any of a hundred philias are all based on this simple premise.
 
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chipmunk

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tgg said:
This is true. Nudist and naturist establishments do demand that women don a pair of shorts or bikini bottoms when they are menstruating.



Same here. If I was to set up a naturist business, I would want to get a medical check on everyone before they joined so that they (especially kids) would not be vulnerable to catching STDs. Then again, nudist clubs have their patrons put towels over the chairs before they sit down on them.

So yes, I do think there are times when clothes of some sort are necessary for health reasons.

Well, that's certainly new information. I'm glad people think of these things. I know nothing about what goes on in naturist type businesses.

Whilst we are still on this thread, I was wondering what you all think of guys who get erections when in a naturist place. Do you think they ought to be reprimanded, or tossed out, or just ignored unless they are making a nuisance of themselves by parading them around?

Well, I'm a girl so anything I know about male erections was told to me by various guys or is very textbook on the mechanics. I believe it is possible for an erection not to be related to sexual thoughts. If that's the case, it could be like reprimanding them for goosebumps.
 
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wanderingone

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Personally I don't *get* it but to each their own. These days my body parts don't stay put without support and I really don't like parts of my body going in one direction while other parts are trying to walk the other way, and I find it particularly uncomfortable to be naked in the heat..

Other people being naked doesn't bother me... I don't quite understand the desire to be naked in groups...(like at nudist camps) but I guess it stems from the desire to be naked as you go about your day and needing a place where it's okay to do that?
 
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wanderingone

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Lilly of the Valley said:
If you wear anything that can cause someone to lust or produce some type of desire, that is immodest.

You better stay in the house all the time then because no matter WHAT you wear there is someone out there who has a *thing* for the way you look in exactly THAT item of clothing.
 
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gengwall

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wanderingone said:
You better stay in the house all the time then because no matter WHAT you wear there is someone out there who has a *thing* for the way you look in exactly THAT item of clothing.
This is true enough but it does not make modesty irrelevant. We can draw distinctions between clothing and actions that are inherently benign and those that are intended to illicit lustful reactions. Some of this, of course, is cultural, but much of it is common sense. The goal in modesty is not to prevent all lustful thought. That is impossible. The goal is to not promote or "egg on" lustful thought.

That said, I really do believe that there can be benign, modest nudity. But it needs to occur in a cultural setting that accepts natural nudity. Strolling down a city street naked, although inherently benign, is culturally quite immodest. But strolling naked through a naturist community is the height of modesty. (All this presumes, of course, that your behavior is modest as well. Shimmying clothed or naked through either a naturist community or a city street would, I suspect, be viewed as very immodest by all.)
 
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tgg

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KCDAD said:
Seriously, though, if the problem is our perverted culture that would make being naked a invitation to lust, shouldn't the repeated exposure of normal people naked be educational, in that it would make us realize that sexuality is NOT about skin? Isn't it our puritaincal views about breasts, ankles or whatever that makes sexualize those particular accumulations of skin, fat, muscle and bone? PERHAPS BY GETTING RID OF CLOTHES, PUSH UP BRAS, PADDED SHOULDERS, GIRDLES AND HIGH HEELS WE COULD LEARN TO APPRECIATE PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE RATHER THAN WHAT THEY APPEAR TO US TO BE.

I couldn't agree with you more on this. Well done! :thumbsup: :amen:


tgg
 
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