Christian Morals

[cvanwey]

The claimed Christian has a chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.
The claimed non-believer has no chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.

My spouse and I had a discussion about this topic. She is a believer. I asserted that morals are arbitrary when it comes to Christianity. She disagreed.

I proceeded to ask her that if I never sinned again, but did not accept Jesus as being real, would I go to heaven? She stated no. And according to the Bible in which she believes, her answer would be demonstrably true, as in John 3:16-21 and Mark 16:15-16.

I proceeded to then ask her, do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and gateway for salvation? She stated yes.

I then asked if she will ever commit another sin between now and the time of her death? She stated yes.

By using logic, she had no choice but to conclude that she will continue to sin, and go to heaven anyways, as long as she believes in Jesus wholeheartedly. But even if I somehow did not 'sin', I still would not go to heaven. This demonstrates my position; that morals are irrelevant. The only saving factor is belief, which does not encompass morals by any rational definition.

Thoughts? This is just a primer. BTW, I'm on the fence regarding being Christian. (Just an FYI).

 

[dysert]

Getting to heaven is not a matter of doing good works. It's solely a matter of accepting Jesus for who He says He is. If you believe, you're saved; if you don't believe, you're lost. The thing is, once you believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you and you no longer are under the power of sin. Ideally, your life will change so that you won't live sinfully, and that you'll want to live righteously. I've known atheists that lived good moral lives, except for the fact that they thumbed their noses at the God who died to save them. They're unfortunately lost. And I've known people who claim to be born again despite the lack of moral change. But, assuming their born-again experience was genuine, they're saved anyway.

Everyone is immoral to a degree. Thankfully, God doesn't save us based on morals or every one of us would be doomed. He has offered us a free gift of salvation. All we have to do is accept it.

 

[“Paisios”]

The claimed Christian has a chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.
The claimed non-believer has no chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.

My spouse and I had a discussion about this topic. She is a believer. I asserted that morals are arbitrary when it comes to Christianity. She disagreed.

I proceeded to ask her that if I never sinned again, but did not accept Jesus as being real, would I go to heaven? She stated no. And according to the Bible in which she believes, her answer would be demonstrably true, as in John 3:16-21 and Mark 16:15-16.

I proceeded to then ask her, do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and gateway for salvation? She stated yes.

I then asked if she will ever commit another sin between now and the time of her death? She stated yes.

By using logic, she had no choice but to conclude that she will continue to sin, and go to heaven anyways, as long as she believes in Jesus wholeheartedly. But even if I somehow did not 'sin', I still would not go to heaven. This demonstrates my position; that morals are irrelevant. The only saving factor is belief, which does not encompass morals by any rational definition.

Thoughts? This is just a primer. BTW, I'm on the fence regarding being Christian. (Just an FYI).

My thought is that your view is only one of many Christian ideas about the mechanism of salvation. I’m not smart enough to phrase it well, but salvation can be seen as more than simply a stated belief in Christ, no matter what one does. It does not have to be viewed in a purely juridical manner. I would also say that “going to Heaven” is not the only (nor even the primary) goal of being a Christian. Salvation is a healing of the relationship between man and God through the Person of Jesus Christ, and that relationship does indeed involve morality. (But it is not to be seen as trying to earn enough points by doing good works to get to Heaven, but rather a process by which we are remade/reborn in God’s image in our whole being).

(At least that is my understanding...but what do I know? I am sure there are many here who can give you a better and more orthodox understanding than I can.)

 

[cvanwey]

Getting to heaven is not a matter of doing good works. It's solely a matter of accepting Jesus for who He says He is. If you believe, you're saved; if you don't believe, you're lost. The thing is, once you believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you and you no longer are under the power of sin. Ideally, your life will change so that you won't live sinfully, and that you'll want to live righteously. I've known atheists that lived good moral lives, except for the fact that they thumbed their noses at the God who died to save them. They're unfortunately lost. And I've known people who claim to be born again despite the lack of moral change. But, assuming their born-again experience was genuine, they're saved anyway.

Everyone is immoral to a degree. Thankfully, God doesn't save us based on morals or every one of us would be doomed. He has offered us a free gift of salvation. All we have to do is accept it.

Then what is the point of the ten commandments, all other Mosaic laws, or reading the many other claims and statements from the Bible?

Further, you missed one thing... Mark 3:28-30 states blasphemy is unforgivable. This falls under 'works'. To not blaspheme falls under the category of works. Also, anyone whom ever breaks this rule is condemned forever, even if they ARE a believer. So it is now even more of a quandary.

Furthermore, if what you say is true, then why is the vast majority of prisioners then believers, and not more-so atheists? If a believer, as you said 'will change so that you won't live sinfully, and that you'll want to live righteously', then this seems to contradict such a statement?

 

[salt-n-light]

The claimed Christian has a chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.
The claimed non-believer has no chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.

My spouse and I had a discussion about this topic. She is a believer. I asserted that morals are arbitrary when it comes to Christianity. She disagreed.

I proceeded to ask her that if I never sinned again, but did not accept Jesus as being real, would I go to heaven? She stated no. And according to the Bible in which she believes, her answer would be demonstrably true, as in John 3:16-21 and Mark 16:15-16.

I proceeded to then ask her, do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and gateway for salvation? She stated yes.

I then asked if she will ever commit another sin between now and the time of her death? She stated yes.

By using logic, she had no choice but to conclude that she will continue to sin, and go to heaven anyways, as long as she believes in Jesus wholeheartedly. But even if I somehow did not 'sin', I still would not go to heaven. This demonstrates my position; that morals are irrelevant. The only saving factor is belief, which does not encompass morals by any rational definition.

Thoughts? This is just a primer. BTW, I'm on the fence regarding being Christian. (Just an FYI).

We are saved by grace, not by works. Shes identifying that yes even though being a believer doesn't automatically mean that you are and will be perfect in your essence and actions, its that you will be presented as perfect in the sight of God. Its an ongoing walk of repenting, obedience, and faith in God's promises.

So then how would one be able to examine themselves? What am I exactly adhering to? If it's not by works, am I actually working on anything? Yes, your heart. The laws given my God are to work on your morals spiritually,to be righteous, and the fruit of it is one I guess every person wishes others are, moral in conduct. Usually, when a person asks about sinning, it's always a physical act they are referring to, it's more like a "what if I don't do sin again" or " what if my conduct is moral?". When sin's roots are really at the heart, so a change of heart is really what God is looking for. But if a person's heart rejects the one path that can transform it, then yes they are not really saved and are already condemning themselves.

Part of believing Jesus wholeheartedly, or having faith, is trusting God's promises and His laws. His laws are the only truly moral just laws, because God is the true Judge. Someone who is walking in faith, would take the needed steps to actually be save, which is following Jesus (or obeying His laws), as opposed to trying to bear the fruits themselves through what he interprets as moral laws. Now someone who is walking by faith should also be those displaying the fruits of the Spirit. If you are a healthy tree, you should bearing healthy fruit. But again, its a daily thing, and God knows who is just slipping up with temptation, and those who are intentionally walking away, and it's always wise to examine that case by case. Again, it's only when you actually reject the promises of God, when you don't believe in them, when you desire to follow your own set laws as oppose to God's laws, then naturally yes that's an intentional decision to rebel, you removed yourself from salvation and the kingdom.

Whether or not you actually do be damn in the end, no one can say until the moment they die, but as long as you are alive, the chance is always there.

 

[dysert]

Then what is the point of the ten commandments, all other Mosaic laws, or reading the many other claims and statements from the Bible?

The point is that God wants us to live morally, so He's told us how. That doesn't negate the fact that we aren't saved by living morally. We are saved by believing in Jesus.

Further, you missed one thing... Mark 3:28-30 states blasphemy is unforgivable. This falls under 'works'. To not blaspheme falls under the category of works. Also, anyone whom ever breaks this rule is condemned forever, even if they ARE a believer. So it is now even more of a quandary.

There are many Bible teachers who teach that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot occur today - that it was only specifically for the period of time when Jesus walked the earth. There are also many who teach that a born-again believer can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, since He lives in each believer.

Furthermore, if what you say is true, then why is the vast majority of prisioners then believers, and not more-so atheists? If a believer, as you said 'will change so that you won't live sinfully, and that you'll want to live righteously', then this seems to contradict such a statement?

I have no idea how many prisoners have been born-again, and neither do you. I'm glad that some have accepted Christ. That speaks to God's grace and mercy that He would still reach out to those who have broken His laws (as we all have).

 

[Mike Czaj]

From God's perspective (according to the Scriptures), we sin because our human nature is Self-centered, and sinful actions are the fruit. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Even when we do "good" actions, we credit them to our selves. The promise of the Gospel is a new nature given within us, God's Spirit actively working in us, and showing the Fruit of Christ's righteousness, not our own. Our ideal is that our actions are motivated by God, guided by God, empowered by God, and give glory to God. While we are on the earth, as Believers, we are working out our salvation, that is, through specific issues, we are given opportunity to demonstrate the New Life through our choices. Like a baby learning to walk, we often stumble, but are motivated to rise again. The Holy Spirit stimulates us to produce good fruit (morals) and convicts us when we are misaligned. We want to please God.

The destiny of the person in whom God's Spirit dwells is Heaven, welcomed into God's presence. So in one sense it is not about morals, but about the source of the "morals". But the real Believer will produce moral fruit. Only Christ is Righteous, and Christ in us is our righteousness.

I encourage you in your search for Truth. God will speak to your heart, hear Him.

 

[cvanwey]

The point is that God wants us to live morally, so He's told us how. That doesn't negate the fact that we aren't saved by living morally. We are saved by believing in Jesus.

Thank you for your response. However, this only re-affirms my initial post. According to Christianity, 'morality' is arbitrary. Morals are generally defined by the act of doing 'right' or 'wrong', which honestly, are subjective terms. The act of believing is an 'amoral' act however. Belief is something one does based upon their own justification, and lacks 'right' or 'wrong' from a moral perspective. Example... 'If I do not believe Alexander the Great had supernatural powers, that does not encompass a moral or immoral action, that I don't believe it. It is 'amoral.'

Same goes for belief in Christ. To believe or not believe is justified by one's own reason. This action lacks a moral scope. But instead, is 'amoral'.

[/QUOTE] There are many Bible teachers who teach that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot occur today - that it was only specifically for the period of time when Jesus walked the earth. There are also many who teach that a born-again believer can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, since He lives in each believer. [/QUOTE]

This does not explain the black and white statement from Mark 3:28-30. People can say whatever they want, because, quite frankly, people invent their own religion. The passage appears pretty clear, and appears to present no hidden sub-meaning.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The claimed Christian has a chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.
The claimed non-believer has no chance to enter heaven, regardless of followed moral laws.

My spouse and I had a discussion about this topic. She is a believer. I asserted that morals are arbitrary when it comes to Christianity. She disagreed.

I proceeded to ask her that if I never sinned again, but did not accept Jesus as being real, would I go to heaven? She stated no. And according to the Bible in which she believes, her answer would be demonstrably true, as in John 3:16-21 and Mark 16:15-16.

I proceeded to then ask her, do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and gateway for salvation? She stated yes.

I then asked if she will ever commit another sin between now and the time of her death? She stated yes.

By using logic, she had no choice but to conclude that she will continue to sin, and go to heaven anyways, as long as she believes in Jesus wholeheartedly. But even if I somehow did not 'sin', I still would not go to heaven. This demonstrates my position; that morals are irrelevant. The only saving factor is belief, which does not encompass morals by any rational definition.

Thoughts? This is just a primer. BTW, I'm on the fence regarding being Christian. (Just an FYI).

This question is is centered around a topic that is highly debatable in Christian camps. Are Christians once saved always saved? Or can we lose our salvation ? The assertion that you have regarding morality being arbitrarily is a real concern for people in the OSAS because some "Christians" wrongfully hold to an "Easy believism salvation". Meaning "I am saved and I can never loose my salvation regardless of my moral choices. However, James 2 clearly demonstrates this to be false.

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
James 2:14‭-‬19 NIV

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I like theology.
Ty for the opportunity.


Traditionally I think for a Christian accepting Jesus = accepting summum bonum (highest good). So by implicaiton if to you one said "do you accept goodness?" and the answer for you is "yes" then you value the good and have faith in it as a source of inspiration for motivation and action.

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also..." Matthew 6.21

You will visit and seek to please your beloved as a free choice.

From that angle, you cant just have faith in God without embracing God as a whole including the moral attributes, the wisdom and providence also.

Belief in God then is not a mere label but a switch for heart and action too.

Faith without works in said to be dead, because if you don't act on good advice etc (and God is The good shepherd + guide) you will suffer the consequences of only the bad and deletrious actions being left for you to act on. Nobody likes being devoured alive. Hint hint:

 

[bhsmte]

Getting to heaven is not a matter of doing good works. It's solely a matter of accepting Jesus for who He says He is. If you believe, you're saved; if you don't believe, you're lost. The thing is, once you believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you and you no longer are under the power of sin. Ideally, your life will change so that you won't live sinfully, and that you'll want to live righteously. I've known atheists that lived good moral lives, except for the fact that they thumbed their noses at the God who died to save them. They're unfortunately lost. And I've known people who claim to be born again despite the lack of moral change. But, assuming their born-again experience was genuine, they're saved anyway.

Everyone is immoral to a degree. Thankfully, God doesn't save us based on morals or every one of us would be doomed. He has offered us a free gift of salvation. All we have to do is accept it.

Does this mean, the serial killer who finds Jesus on death row is saved and the Hindu who lives a life full of helping others, is doomed?

 

[cvanwey]

This question is is centered around a topic that is highly debatable in Christian camps. Are Christians once saved always saved? Or can we lose our salvation ? The assertion that you have regarding morality being arbitrarily is a real concern for people in the OSAS because some "Christians" wrongfully hold to an "Easy believism salvation". Meaning "I am saved and I can never loose my salvation regardless of my moral choices. However, James 2 clearly demonstrates this to be false.

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
James 2:14‭-‬19 NIV

Thank you for your response, and though I do empathize with much you are saying, it does not address the core of the issue. The Bible clearly states that if one does not believe, get baptized, and arguably not blaspheme, then there becomes NO way to enter heaven. But on the flip side, all other 'bad' deeds appear forgivable. If the Bible is true, and one dies NOT believing, they cannot ask for forgiveness, or rely upon salvation. The focus is on belief. No belief, no heaven. And as I've stated prior, one cannot really choose a belief. You either believe, or you don't. One requires their 'own' justification to change a belief. Otherwise, make yourself believe you can fly, and jump off a building.

I find it very perplexing that belief becomes the primary method for grace. Which again, excludes morality in any sense.....

Your thoughts???

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Thank you for your response, and though I do empathize with much you are saying, it does not address the core of the issue. The Bible clearly states that if one does not believe, get baptized, and arguably not blaspheme, then there becomes NO way to enter heaven. But on the flip side, all other 'bad' deeds appear forgivable. If the Bible is true, and one dies NOT believing, they cannot ask for forgiveness, or rely upon salvation. The focus is on belief. No belief, no heaven. And as I've stated prior, one cannot really choose a belief. You either believe, or you don't. One requires their 'own' justification to change a belief. Otherwise, make yourself believe you can fly, and jump off a building.

I find it very perplexing that belief becomes the primary method for grace. Which again, excludes morality in any sense.....

Your thoughts???

I agree with your statement regarding belief. You cannot choose your beliefs. I think as Christians, we want to believe that it is easy to choose our beliefs because we want to believe that it is so easy to be saved. Here is a link to a thread I created on the topic that may be helpful.

Is "Belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.

The other option that is commonly adopted by more Reformed denominations is that we have a will, but it isn't free. Rather, it is in bondage to sin. The doctrine of "total depravity" means that we are completely unable to come to a saving faith. It is only by grace through "unconditional election" that God allows His elect to come to faith. They also believe that the atonement, although universally applied, is limited in its application to only the elect. This is called the doctrine of "limited atonement". Once that grace is given, we would have no choice but to come to faith because the call is so strong. This is what they call "irresistible grace". Furthermore, not only is this grace "irresistible", it is irreversible. This doctrine of the "preservation of the saints" means that once elected and graced with saving faith, God will never allow you to lose it. Thus, "once saved, always saved".

The acronym for these doctrines is T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Llimited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Santa.

Of course the common complaint about this doctrine is that we have no choice in the salvation process. God does it all. So how is that fair? Why would God create someone knowing they would go to hell because he or she was never "elected". Of course, the answer I receive is usually "Read Romans 9 and quit asking stupid questions."

I, on the other hand, believe that there are paths to salvation outside the Christian religion but still through Christ. I am sure I am going to catch a lot of flack for this statement. But what it boils down to is that people were saved prior to Jesus, so are those doors now shut because of Jesus? Why should we assume they are?

 

[Inkfingers]

I then asked if she will ever commit another sin between now and the time of her death? She stated yes.

Which, of course, questions whether she is actually saved at all given that salvation means that the old self has passed away (2 Corinthians 5:17) and that in such a new creation no sin is found (1 John 3:6 1 John 5:18).

Many are called into the church but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14 Matthew 7:14) to fulfill salvation, and a great many fall away instead into apostasy (Matthew 25:1-13).

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Which, of course, questions whether she is actually saved at all given that salvation means that the old self has passed away (2 Corinthians 5:17) and that in such a new creation no sin is found (1 John 3:6 1 John 5:18).

Many are called into the church but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14 Matthew 7:14) to fulfill salvation, and a great many fall away instead into apostasy (Matthew 25:1-13).

Are you actually claiming that Christians cannot sin if they are "actually saved". Based on your conclusion, no Christian is saved. Unless perhaps they had a deathbed conversion.

 

[Inkfingers]

Are you actually claiming that Christians cannot sin if they are "actually saved". Based on your conclusion, no Christian is saved. Unless perhaps they had a deathbed conversion.

I'm quoting the scripture.

What does it say?

 

[Phil 1:21]

My spouse and I had a discussion about this topic. She is a believer. I asserted that morals are arbitrary when it comes to Christianity. She disagreed.

Your wife is correct.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Which, of course, questions whether she is actually saved at all given that salvation means that the old self has passed away (2 Corinthians 5:17) and that in such a new creation no sin is found (1 John 3:6 1 John 5:18).

Many are called into the church but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14 Matthew 7:14) to fulfill salvation, and a great many fall away instead into apostasy (Matthew 25:1-13).

Well, first of all, it isn't saying that if you are saved you will never sin. But I am not concerned about what scripture says. Rather it is your hermeneutical understanding of the scripture. Otherwise, how do you reconcile James 5:19-20?

Edit; I just wanted to clarify that when I said "I am not concerned about what scripture says" I meant "I don't have a problem with what scripture says". Not "I don't care about what scripture says."

 

[Strathos]

Why do you think that anything you can do in your brief life on earth is worthy of eternal life in heaven?

 

[Jimmy D]

Does this mean, the serial killer who finds Jesus on death row is saved and the Hindu who lives a life full of helping others, is doomed?

Seems to be the case from the opinions on this thread. Makes you think doesn't it?

(I won't say what it makes me think as I have no desire to offend anyone).