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Christian intolerance shows they are not Christian

Jane_the_Bane

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Clarity said:
You have a clear stereotype that all christians are completely intolerant,unreasonable and unloving hyprocrites which i don't think is totally accurate.

No, not all. Maybe not even as many as one might be tempted to believe after reading some of the posts in this forum...
Yes, there ARE tolerant Christians, charitable Christians, forgiving Christians. But it doesn't seem to be based on their religion, because there are also these *others*. And of course, there are tolerant, charitable and forgiving Non-Christians as well.

Clarity said:
Why should you not do evil(murder, stealing, taking bribes etc) if it benefits you and you can get away with it?
Because of EMPATHY. Because of COMPASSION. Because of the deep conviction within my heart that it's utterly wrong.

Clarity said:
In fact you should live life to the full and become a hedonist and if stealing or crime helps to get you money so you can enjoy yourself there is no reason not to do this.

So, how comes that the Non-Christian world is not a boiling cauldron of rape, incest and murder? How comes that every society on this planet (except for some totalitarian regimes) regards murder as wrong? How comes that I don't feel the slightest inclination to become a hedonist and exploit the people around me? Because of Empathy. I couldn't enjoy myself, because I can FEEL the pain of others, and because I want those around me to live a fulfilled life.

Clarity said:
This is in sharp contrast to christianity where everyone will be judged for their every action, word and deed and where life doesn't end at death but goes on forever in heaven/hell, there is also a motivation to care for and love others as the god who created the human race and know what is best commands it.
Fear of punishment is a poor motivation. Imagine a bloodlusting killer who refrains from murdering people just because he wants to save his own neck. His heart isn't changed, and even though he never actually commits the deed, he's still a sadistic monster. He doesn't cause suffering, but that doesn't save HIM. Only empathy can do that. If he doesn't grasp WHY it is wrong, he will always carry the corruption at the core of his being.
 
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cabbitgrrrl

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larryicr said:
First, we are all created sinful. God is repelled by sin.
This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that unless we are born again, we cannot see the kingdom of God. One must be born of the Spirit, not of the flesh, to be a child of God.

I thought it said that those born of god were not sinful
:scratch:
 
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GMRELIC

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Clarity said:
You have a clear stereotype that all christians are completely intolerant,unreasonable and unloving hyprocrites which i don't think is totally accurate.
]

I personally don't think that all Christians are that way, but there sure is alot of them that are, alot seem to think they can spread Hate in the name of God and it is alright. Anyone who likes to judge others, or who is so self righteous that they can only see others faults, while they totally justify thier own, get on my last nerve
 
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Emmy

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Dear Somasoma 77,as Christians we love our leader,Jesus Christ,and follow His teaching.To love,as Jesus loves,even our enemies,does not mean to condone their deeds.We must not condemn,or judge our fellowbeings,God is the only Judge,we must show love and forbearance to the world,but we are not of this world,and we must never join,or condone their different beliefs or outlooks on life.Christians should be recognised by their love for God,and their love for one another.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.
 
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Clarity

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Because of EMPATHY. Because of COMPASSION. Because of the deep conviction within my heart that it's utterly wrong.
Why should you obey your supposedly natural empathy if it is illogical?
Why do you have a deep conviction in your heart that it is wrong? The fact is that it is because god put it there. There are millions of people who do not have this empathy
what about all those intolerant evil unreasonable chrisitians who seem not to have this empathy. What about all those criminals in prison ?

Yes, there ARE tolerant Christians, charitable Christians, forgiving Christians. But it doesn't seem to be based on their religion, because there are also these *others*. And of course, there are tolerant, charitable and forgiving Non-Christians as well.
The fact is that it is completely and totally based on their religion as their religion commands them to be loving, forgiving and sometimes tolerant and if they did not have this religion then they would be much worse as their religion provides a logical reason for becoming more loving better people. There are many non christians who unknowingly take their moral code from christianity despite not being professing christians also the fact that many of the laws in a country are derived directly from christian principles.

So, how comes that the Non-Christian world is not a boiling cauldron of rape, incest and murder? How comes that every society on this planet (except for some totalitarian regimes) regards murder as wrong? How comes that I don't feel the slightest inclination to become a hedonist and exploit the people around me?
The reason is because despite saying you don't believe in a god you live as if he exists and do not take your philosophy to its logivcal conclusion that i mentionned you talk the talk but do not walk the walk.

Fear of punishment is a poor motivation. Imagine a bloodlusting killer who refrains from murdering people just because he wants to save his own neck. His heart isn't changed, and even though he never actually commits the deed, he's still a sadistic monster. He doesn't cause suffering, but that doesn't save HIM. Only empathy can do that. If he doesn't grasp WHY it is wrong, he will always carry the corruption at the core of his being.
The fact is he doesn't feel empathy and so cannot grasp why he is wrong? So how can you say he is wrong what if people were created so that they didn't feel empathy would that mean that murder is right?
Do you think that we should abolish all forms of punishment as they are a poor motivation and do not work get rid of all prisons and courts?


So, how comes that the Non-Christian world is not a boiling cauldron of rape, incest and murder? How comes that every society on this planet (except for some totalitarian regimes) regards murder as wrong? How comes that I don't feel the slightest inclination to become a hedonist and exploit the people around me?


The fact is that secular non christian philosophies have spawned many evil things as well, such as communism in which the people are forced to become athiests and have no freedom of speech and this was a boiling cauldrom of rape, incest and murder. What about evolution that spawned hitlers ideas of purifying the world of the jewish race so that survival of the fittest was present. There are no surviving societies based on non christian philsophies that do not borrow heavily from christianity that have ever flourished the fact is that the whole of american society is based on christian values and has been for hundreds of years and if you compare this with other societies where christianity is not present eg communism, marxism, non christian dictatorships,socialism rtc you will clearly be able to see how superior the christian based societies are.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Clarity said:
Why should you obey your supposedly natural empathy if it is illogical?
Why do you have a deep conviction in your heart that it is wrong? The fact is that it is because god put it there.
Yes. Look at my faith icon again. I *DO* believe in the Divine. I just find that no book written by the hands of man could ever be considered the truth, because such texts are always susceptible to misinterpretations, Man's eagerness to see his own views confirmed by deity and so on and so forth. I have read the Bible, the Qur'an and some books on Hinduism and Buddhism. All of them bear these marks of imperfection.

Clarity said:
The fact is that it is completely and totally based on their religion as their religion commands them to be loving, forgiving and sometimes tolerant
An interesting little word, this "sometimes".

Clarity said:
The fact is that secular non christian philosophies have spawned many evil things as well, such as communism in which the people are forced to become athiests and have no freedom of speech and this was a boiling cauldrom of rape, incest and murder.
Stalin was a genocidal, power-crazed madman, and so were some other dictators. But please show me how Soviet states were "a boiling cauldron of rape, incest and murder"? They were certainly far removed from my idea of a perfect state, and highly dysfunctional, but rape, incest and murder were still illegal.

Clarity said:
What about evolution that spawned hitlers ideas of purifying the world of the jewish race so that survival of the fittest was present.
Do you know where the term "semite" comes from? A staunch Christian claimed that all people of the world were descended from SEM, Ham and Japheth, and that the Semites and Japhites were infinitely inferior to the pure, Nordic children of Ham.
Do you know that anti-semitism was much older than these ridiculous ideas about human races? It was a Christian thing, basically. Those "evil murderers of Christ", you know? First, Christians forced the Jews to live segregated and restricted them to certain professions, and then they turned them into scapegoats time and again. You should read Martin Luther's treatises on the subject.


Clarity said:
There are no surviving societies based on non christian philsophies that do not borrow heavily from christianity that have ever flourished
Maybe you should check your map again. I see a whole CONTINENT without a single society that's based on Christianity. (Asia)
And China is one of the oldest and most successful societies on this planet. Even communism wasn't able to ruin them, and now they are on the rise.

Clarity said:
the fact is that the whole of american society is based on christian values and has been for hundreds of years and if you compare this with other societies where christianity is not present eg communism, marxism, non christian dictatorships,socialism rtc you will clearly be able to see how superior the christian based societies are.
Check your history books again.
-Black slavery
-Genocide (American Natives)
-WMD (Hiroshima)
-supporting dictators (they even supported Saddam in the 1980s)
-toppling democratically elected governments by supporting a coup and allowing a dictatorship to be established (Chile)

And these are but a few highlights. Besides, do you think that CHRISTIAN dictatorships are somewhat better than others?
 
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somasoma77

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Things and people have a purpose in being the way they are.. Whatever we don't like in another is usually something we are afraid of within our own mind. While we are resisting something inside, we don't like to see it in other people, but this doesn’t make it wrong and we don't need to make judgments about it to make it true because that only makes it right for us and wrong for others.
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought they brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then everyone of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. " Romans 14:10-13 KJV
Acceptance is the key because when we accept others, we accept ourselves and are not disturbed with the things around us; we notice that these things have a purpose in being the way they are. When you experience Jesus Christ and his pure consciousness and feel a part of life, you notice that it does not matter if something is good or bad because everything makes a difference in life. Therefore, acceptance must be practiced by observing life without judgment, living in the present moment, not attached to memories of the past nor attached to schemes for the future. Acceptance does not punish or reward a man because it is simply to help us live with happiness, health, success, sorrow, disease and failure. It helps us live in harmony with Nature's Laws, observing the law of cause and effect in perfect harmony with one's individual demands; therefore, the way to change our condition in life is to change our mind about life. Cheerful, constructive thoughts set in motion vibrations that bring us good results such as happiness, kindness and love. They propel us forward and upward, physically, mentally and spiritually because our thoughts, feelings, and attitudes provide the cause for the effects that we experience in the outer world.
"Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 KJV
Emmy continue to rejoice, you are a positive force in the world and Christianity.
 
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jesusfreak3786

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cabbitgrrrl said:
I thought it said that those born of god were not sinful
:scratch:
Your spirit is cleansed of all sin, the core of your being is not sinful once born agian. Your body and parts of your soul fight agianst you. Becuase in them sin still dwells, but in your soul the spirit of God dwells. He previales.
 
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Clarity

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They were certainly far removed from my idea of a perfect state, and highly dysfunctional, but rape, incest and murder were still illegal.
Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Do you know where the term "semite" comes from? A staunch Christian claimed that all people of the world were descended from SEM, Ham and Japheth, and that the Semites and Japhites were infinitely inferior to the pure, Nordic children of Ham.
Do you know that anti-semitism was much older than these ridiculous ideas about human races? It was a Christian thing, basically. Those "evil murderers of Christ", you know? First, Christians forced the Jews to live segregated and restricted them to certain professions, and then they turned them into scapegoats time and again. You should read Martin Luther's treatises on the subject.
The word was first used by Wilhelm Marr a German agitator, who created it to explain the current anti-Jewish campaigns in Europe.
Antisemitism is indeed not only an unfortunate phenomenon, but by universal admission an unfortunate term. Its origins are clearly documented. It was coined in 1879 by the German journalist Wilhelm Marr, the author of a book called "The Victory of Judaism Over Germanism." In that year Marr, in step with the swelling tide of anti-Jewish feeling in Germany, founded his Bund der Antisemiten or "Antisemitic League." The term caught on immediately. In 1881 an "Antisemitic Petition" bearing 225,000 signatures was presented to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, and by 1882 there was an official "Anti-Semitic Party" in Germany that won several seats in the Reichstag.

Why did the German word Antisemitismus so quickly replace the older Judenfeindschaft, or "Jew-hatred," and spread to other European languages as well? The answer lies in the growing propagation in late-19th-century Europe of a pseudo-Darwinian racial ideology that, dividing the world's population into various "biologically" definable groups of which the "Aryan" was deemed the most advanced and fittest to survive, relegated Jews and blacks to the bottom of the ladder. The problem was, however, that Jews could not be "scientifically" considered a separate race in themselves. After all, they originally came from the Middle East, where, like all other Middle Easterners, to whom they bore many resemblances, they had spoken a Semitic language — in their case, Hebrew. "Racially," therefore, they had to be considered "Semites," thus making anyone who opposed them or considered them inferior on racial rather than strictly religious grounds an "anti-Semite."

What a load of rubbish the word was not invented by christians and has nothing to do with christians it originated from a German journalist.

I just find that no book written by the hands of man could ever be considered the truth, because such texts are always susceptible to misinterpretations,
So how do you know what god wants you to do if you have no book?
To say that texts are susceptible to misinterpretation implies that god is incapable of writing a clear message that could be understood by his creatures, admittedly some people may purposely misinterpret the book but surely with careful study someone would be capable of understanding it or are we all completely incapable of understanding anything.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Clarity said:
Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked.
Yes, but that was not what you implied earlier. You claimed that rape, incest and murder were legal in Soviet Russia - which is clearly not the case. Thanks for moving the goalposts, however.

Clarity said:
The word was first used by Wilhelm Marr a German agitator, who created it to explain the current anti-Jewish campaigns in Europe.
Antisemitism is indeed not only an unfortunate phenomenon, but by universal admission an unfortunate term. Its origins are clearly documented. It was coined in 1879 by the German journalist Wilhelm Marr, the author of a book called "The Victory of Judaism Over Germanism." In that year Marr, in step with the swelling tide of anti-Jewish feeling in Germany, founded his Bund der Antisemiten or "Antisemitic League." The term caught on immediately. In 1881 an "Antisemitic Petition" bearing 225,000 signatures was presented to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, and by 1882 there was an official "Anti-Semitic Party" in Germany that won several seats in the Reichstag.
A rose by any other name... you conveniently ignore the fact that Jews had been persecuted, maltreated, shunned and discriminated against for more than a thousand years, and that pogromes had become somewhat of a tradition in Christian Europe. And yes, this WAS absolutely motivated by religion. Just to mention a few examples:
Saint Jerome (374-419 CE) referred to the Jews as "Judaic serpents of whom Judas was the model."
Martin Luther (whom I've mentioned before) wrote in his book "On the Jews and their Lies", that they were "venomous beasts, vipers, disgusting scum, canders, devils incarnate. Their private houses must be destroyed and devastated, they could be lodged in stables. Let the magistrates burn their synagogues and let whatever escapes be covered with sand and mud. Let them force to work, and if this avails nothing, we will be compelled to expel them like dogs in order not to expose ourselves to incurring divine wrath and eternal damnation from the Jews and their lies."

The Nazis were indeed not very inventive:
- The Synod of Clermont, 535 CE, prohibited jews from holding public office.
- The Nuremberg Laws, 1935 CE, prohibited jews from holding public office.

- The 12th Synod of Toledo (Spain), 681 CE, ordered the burning of the Talmud and other Jewish books.
- The Nazi regime ordered the burning of the Talmud and other Jewish books.

-The Trulanic Synod, 692 CE, forbade Christians to go to Jewish doctors, attend Jewish religious feasts or have friendly relations with Jews.
- The Nuremberg laws forbade people to go to jewish doctors.

-The Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 CE, forced Jews to wear a distinctive badge on their clothing.
-The Nazis forced Jews to wear a distinctive badge on their clothing.

-Pope Paul IV, in 1555, issued a papal bull# forcing Jews to wear yellow hats; this same papal bull confines Jews to ghettos, and bans them from working in most professions.
-Nazi Germany adopted every one of these laws in 1939; the only change was that the yellow hat was changed to a yellow star.

-In the 1930s Nazi Germany help the Lutheran church and other Christian churches publicise Martin Luther's teachings; his recommendations were carried out on every Jew in Germany and its occupied lands.

Clarity said:
Why did the German word Antisemitismus so quickly replace the older Judenfeindschaft, or "Jew-hatred," and spread to other European languages as well? The answer lies in the growing propagation in late-19th-century Europe of a pseudo-Darwinian racial ideology that, dividing the world's population into various "biologically" definable groups of which the "Aryan" was deemed the most advanced and fittest to survive, relegated Jews and blacks to the bottom of the ladder.
Thanks for pointing out that racism is a PSEUDO-Darwinian ideology.
 
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CZzyzx41

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jesusfreak3786 said:
Your spirit is cleansed of all sin, the core of your being is not sinful once born agian. Your body and parts of your soul fight agianst you. Becuase in them sin still dwells, but in your soul the spirit of God dwells. He previales.
Yes but I got from the original post and a few others that people believe we are literally children of satan but that once we are born again we then become children of God. Is this much like adoption cause I don't get it. I'm know I was created by the hands of God. My soul has always yearned to do the will of my Heavenly Father. My body or "natural man" cares not about spiritual things. It only knows what it feels is pleasurable and in that it tempts me. Falling for these temptations and sinning stains our souls and places marks on them which make it harder to resist the next time and makes these things more inticing the more we do them. We then fall into the trap of trying to justify these actions or words through means of deceiving ourselves and others so that after a time it seems more right than wrong.

Yes being "born again" or baptized does mean that our spirit at that moment is cleansed. That doesn't mean we can't sin anymore. Surely we can still fall to temptation but that's what repentence is for. Christ has paid the debt in advance. We then are in debt to Him. Repentence pays that debt to Him. It's fairly simple but it's a glorious thing. How much He loves us to have done this for us. How much our Father in Heaven loves us to have given his only begotten son so that we may have eternal life if we believe in Him.

The idea though that we are children of satan until we are baptized is just wrong. Our mortal bodies were organized and created by our Heavenly Father. Our spirits were organized by our Heavenly Father. Sure satan is miserable and wants us to be miserable too but he cannot overcome us unless we allow it.
 
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Clarity

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You claimed that rape, incest and murder were legal in Soviet Russia - which is clearly not the case.
No i didn't show me where? i said that they were more common in societies that were not based on christianity.

In Terms of Martin Luther his stance on the jews is unchristian and clearly wrong according to the bible.


The Nuremberg Laws, 1935 CE, prohibited jews from holding public office.
The Trulanic Synod, 692 CE, forbade Christians to go to Jewish doctors, attend Jewish religious feasts or have friendly relations with Jews.
these are by Nazis and have no relation to christianity which was clearly opposed to the nazis.

The Synod of Clermont, 535 CE, prohibited jews from holding public office.
- The 12th Synod of Toledo (Spain), 681 CE, ordered the burning of the Talmud and other Jewish books.
Pope Paul IV, in 1555, issued a papal bull# forcing Jews to wear yellow hats; this same papal bull confines Jews to ghettos, and bans them from working in most professions.

Personally i am not a Catholic and think that most catholic beliefs are a complete false representation of the gospel of jesus.

The Christian teaching on Jews and anti semitism taken from the bible
Admittedly not all christians are perfect and there have been people eg martin luther who have had sinful unchristian approaches to jews but when you look at the bible

Luke 23
33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.

Notice jesus tells us clearly to forgive those who crucified him ie the Jews not to hate them or persecute them.


Matthew 22
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[2] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[3] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

How can you say that hating jews is consistent with christianity in the light of these verses. I would define a christian as someone who follows biblical teaching and yes there are many who claim to be christians who have no idea of what christian teaching is and really shouldn't be regarded as christians.
 
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