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"For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive...ungrateful...unholy, inhuman...haters of good, treacherous....holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people...."
[bible]2 Timothy 3:1-5[/bible]
II Timothy 3:1-5
Christ didn't tolerate sin...Phillip Lorenz said:Intolerance is not a very christian way to live. I try to overcome it everyday.
Jane_the_Bane said:The only thing that cannot be tolerated is intolerance itself.
As that little, polemic tale above clearly illustrates, monotheism carries intolerance at its very core, because it automatically assumes that one specific religion has a monopoly on truth, and all others are wrong by default.
This notion spawns hate, fear and violence, as history has shown countless times. Intolerance doesn't serve the public good. Quite the contrary.
Outspoken said:There is a conflict in your statements. You say all religions are wrong, and that is saying you have a monopoly on truth, thus you have three fingers pointing back at you as you point one at someone else
That's true, of course. Look at the ancient Romans, who were so horrified by the blatant "atheism" of the Christians that they persecuted them.CaDan said:You have spotted the wrong error. Polytheism can be just as intolerant as monotheism.
Exactly. Thanks for clarifying my point!I think what Jane was actually getting at is that commandments-based morality is by its nature intolerant.
Well, if that's what Christianity is about, I'd not necessarily consider myself a lost sheep, because I'd subscribe to the concept Jesus preaches.I would contend that Christianity is not commandments-based, but rather principle-based.
The ethical preaching of Jesus describes a new situation which one must take possession of, a new horizon of life in which there is no longer room for that which was once valid . . . Jesus' radical demand is not a new law, but a sign of new conduct in the realm of freedom in which love is both possible and necessary
Helmut Köster, Introduction to the New Testament: History and Literature of Early Christianity, p. 81.
Jane_the_Bane said:Well, if that's what Christianity is about, I'd not necessarily consider myself a lost sheep, because I'd subscribe to the concept Jesus preaches.
Unfortunately, most Christian denomination seem to rely almost exclusively on Paul's theology, and not on Jesus's ethics.
Christianity does assume that it has a monopoly on truth and i see nothing wrong with this and it certainly doesn't make christianity wrong, this notion shouldn't spawn hate, fear and violence as christian teaching is to love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you and christianity is unique in this way that it doesn't spawn hate, fear and violence in most circumstances as this would be contrary to christian teaching unlike other religion eg the jihad in islam and if you look at statistics in christian countries people are free to practise whatever religion they want whereas in other countries where christianity in not the main religion this is not he case.As that little, polemic tale above clearly illustrates, monotheism carries intolerance at its very core, because it automatically assumes that one specific religion has a monopoly on truth, and all others are wrong by default.
This notion spawns hate, fear and violence, as history has shown countless times. Intolerance doesn't serve the public good. Quite the contrary.
So we should be tolerant of everything and shouldn't punish murderers, rapists, paedophiles as that is being intolerant of these people or are you saying we should be be intolerant of certain things such as those above and tolerant of other things in which case you are defining rules for tolerance just like all religions do.Intolerance doesn't serve the public good. Quite the contrary.
The ethical preaching of Jesus describes a new situation which one must take possession of, a new horizon of life in which there is no longer room for that which was once valid . . . Jesus' radical demand is not a new law, but a sign of new conduct in the realm of freedom in which love is both possible and necessary
What on earth does this mean it sounds impressive but is very vague and unconcise(what is a sign of new conduct in the realm of freedom suppossed to refer to) in its meaning and different people will interpret it in different ways and it could mean anything you want it to in which case it is meaningless. Where are the bible verses to support this view?Helmut Köster, Introduction to the New Testament: History and Literature of Early Christianity, p. 81.
Yes, you do not. That's the problem, isn't it? You basically confirm all my prejudices.Clarity said:Christianity does assume that it has a monopoly on truth and i see nothing wrong with this[.]
Clarity said:t certainly doesn't make christianity wrong, this notion shouldn't spawn hate, fear and violence as christian teaching is to love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you[.]
Freedom of religion is not a Christian issue. It is the product of a constant progress towards secularization of the state. As most bible-thumping fundamentalists will assure you, allowing other religions to be practiced in your country is a sure way to invoke the wrath of God. Just look at what happened to Israel in the Bible.Clarity said:In christian countries people are free to practise whatever religion they want whereas in other countries where christianity in not the main religion this is not he case.
Well, yeah, that's the point! There is no such thing as an absolute truth.Clarity said:One of the main points of the tale was to illustrate that tolerance when taken to extremes makes truth become nonsensical, it basically is saying that nobody can or ever will be able to know the truth about anything so truth as a concept dies if this is the case.
Yes, and this is another problem. Instead of examining your own conscience, you just follow the book, and this can be abused by interpreting the book whichever way you like. You *do* know that slavery and the suppression of women were actively supported by the Bible, don't you?Clarity said:Christianity is commandment based in that it contains clear rules for what is considered right/wrong (which is how i would define commandment based) in many cases as well as being principle based when a commandment is not given then certain biblical principles need to be applied to discover what is right/wrong.[/font]
somasoma77 said:Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself," because it provides an effective answer to the many problems of modern life. This call for love tells us that we are united and that no other person is separate or apart in God's spiritual consciousness. Recognizing that we are all one in God's consciousness gives us full protection in His unity by integrating our individual life with the world around us and providing a basic harmony and equilibrium in our hearts and minds. Wow. That was a mouthful. I'll agree about intolerance. I just know that some people, even if they're Christians, sometimes have a hard time seeing eye to eye.
Clarity said:What on earth does this mean it sounds impressive but is very vague and unconcise(what is a sign of new conduct in the realm of freedom suppossed to refer to) in its meaning and different people will interpret it in different ways and it could mean anything you want it to in which case it is meaningless. Where are the bible verses to support this view?
I respectfully disagree. Christian morality is derived from application of two principles--Love God and love your neighbor. The Law is dead. Dead dead dead. Fulfilled in Christ and nailed to the Cross.Clarity said:Christianity is commandment based in that it contains clear rules for what is considered right/wrong (which is how i would define commandment based) in many cases as well as being principle based when a commandment is not given then certain biblical principles need to be applied to discover what is right/wrong.
Chrsitianity has also spawned many things all the amendments of free speech etc were laid down by americas founding fathers who were puritans and strict christians and it was a group of christians who brought about the abolition of slavery and countless charity work for the poor has been done by christian organisations yet you conveniently ignore this. The fact is that many other systems have caused similar results and to say it has happened in all cases is ridiculous when was the last time you encountered hate,fear and violence from christians. The fact is that these are isolated incidences that do not properly represent christianity in general remember there have been billions of christians over hundreds of years and there are only a handful of isolated examples to support your point. Those that did these things were disobeying christian commandments and principles and they were wrong to do them.Jane the bane said:One would believe that this is the case, and yet the Christian religion HAS spawned hate, fear and violence for hundreds of years. From the blood-drenched streets of Jerusalem to the torture chambers of Torquemada, from religiously inspired pogromes against the "Christ killers" a.k.a. jews to the burning of "witches", from Luther's antisemitic preachings to Bush's black-and-white-polemics, from Northern Ireland to former Yugoslavia: Christianity has ALWAYS spawned hate, fear and violence. Uncannily so. And exactly like any other religion that claims to possess the absolute and exclusive truth.
Unfortunately the vast majority of christians do not believe or act as if this were true and i certainly do not hold this view as in the bible jesus visted and cared and talked to many non christians eg samaritans, gentiles apart from the jews and he did not preach hate etc but the complete opposite love.As most bible-thumping fundamentalists will assure you, allowing other religions to be practiced in your country is a sure way to invoke the wrath of God.
Freedom of religion has been present in all christian countries for hundreds of years and is by no means a product of progress, there is not currently a single christian country where freedom of religion is not allowed whereas if you look at many non christian countries this is still not the case eg north korea, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, china and many christians are persecuted for their religion today and there have been many martyrs killed for their christian faith. In fact rather than being the perpetrators christians are often those who are persecuted by non christians.Freedom of religion is not a Christian issue. It is the product of a constant progress towards secularization of the state.
You do know that it was a group of christians who abolished slavery and without christianity this would not happen as atheism also support slavery ever heard of survival of the fittest whereby there is nothing wrong with abusing those weaker than yourself as it means that the stronger more adapted humans who take others as slaves are helping to ensure that the weaker races of slaves die and the stronger masters survive.You *do* know that slavery and the suppression of women were actively supported by the Bible, don't you?
You say there is not absolute truth yet maintain that christianity is wrong because it is supposedly in support of suppression of women and slavery however how can you tell that slavery or oppression is wrong if there are no absolute or how can you say that hate, fear and opression are wrong for that matter if there is no such thing as right or wrong.Well, yeah, that's the point! There is no such thing as an absolute truth.
Instead of examining your own conscience, you just follow the book, and this can be abused by interpreting the book whichever way you like.
If you look at matthew 5:21-48 it is clearly not a satirical critique of legalism in fact it is the complete opposite it is a critique of lawless christians who try to find loopholes in gods word and ignore the principles behind the commands.CaDan said:If you demand Bible verses, I would suggest Matthew 5-7 taken as a whole. Note especially the critique of legalism found in Matthew 5:21-48.
2 Timothy 3caDan said:I respectfully disagree. Christian morality is derived from application of two principles--Love God and love your neighbor. The Law is dead. Dead dead dead. Fulfilled in Christ and nailed to the Cross.
And THIS is the sentence that says it all. How can you support equal rights for women? It's not in the Bible! Women are told to bow to their fathers and/or husbands at any time. They have no rights whatsoever.Clarity said:Where are the bible verses to support this view?
I think that women are entitled to equal rights in some areas but not others as the bible teaches that men and woman have equal worth despite having different roles(the bible also tells wives to submit to their husbands and i see nothing wrong with this and think women should submit to fathers/husbands). Slavery is not always wrong although it is sometimes wrong eg when black slaves were treated like animals and many died needlessly which was what i was referring to. In the OTAnd THIS is the sentence that says it all. How can you support equal rights for women? It's not in the Bible! Women are told to bow to their fathers and/or husbands at any time. They have no rights whatsoever.
How can you support the abolishment of slavery?
It's not in the Bible! Even Paul tells the escaped slave to go back to his master, although he adds that "it'd be nice" if the master set him free.
You have a clear stereotype that all christians are completely intolerant,unreasonable and unloving hyprocrites which i don't think is totally accurate.Oh well, I'd like to see the faces of all those Christians if the government said okay, pray if you want to, but that right is extended to every religious group out there. There'll be prayers to Allah and to Vishnu, as well as buddhistic meditations.
What about those who have urges to mistreat woman or take slaves, kill or become paedophiles by your definition these things as right these peoples instincts tell them to do these things and so they are right. Not everyone feels instinct to protect those around them what about those evil people who persecute others that you were talking about or what about sadists who actually enjoy inflicting pain. You have absolutely no method of defining right/wrong so slavery could be right/wrong depending on how you feel and so could murder.How do we know then what's right and what's wrong? Because it's in the BOOK? Or because our compassion compels us to protect the weak? Our instincts urge us to protect our offspring and our own life - and our empathy enables us to extend this urge to protect to those around us.
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