Are women ontologically different from men?
I saw this asserted and thought it would be interesting to discuss.
I saw this asserted and thought it would be interesting to discuss.
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Christian Feminism
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Tube Socks Dude
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From what I understand this assertion is taken from a philosophy called "Difference Feminism" and was used by John Paul II to promote theological heteronormativity. It is an excuse to continue barring women from the Priesthood and justifies calling homosexuality intrinsically disordered. By simply sugar coating an outdated, traditional Aristotelian polarity, it attempts to maintain rigid gender roles without sounding so chauvinistic. It is a last ditch effort to maintain the male-dominant illusion of cosmic order. I can go to YouTube right now and find videos (including National Geographic documentaries) which prove that sexuality and gender in nature is expressed in a miriad of ways. The animal kingdom closet door has been thrown wide open. This Internet age of freely shared information also brings to light increasing data suggesting that what has been called "natural" by hierarchal authority is really just a forced ideological construct of priests and legislators. If it were not for a (book religion) which prohibits and stifles the full range of human sexual relationships and restricts the fluidity of gender expression, mankind would probably fall somewhere within a spectrum, being more likely pansexual, omnisexual or bisexual than exclusively either hetero or homo. Again, in my opinion, the so-called "New Feminism" or "Difference Feminism" is just the old binary worldview of patriarchy all tarted up in philosophically disingenuous drag.
TSD
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I agree that it seems designed to support old positions, arbitrarily asserting differences when necessary to reach a desired conclusion.
Perhaps it is due to my scientific background, but I am very resistant to assertions about the nature of reality when observation is possible. This causes me to disagree with many of the Vatican's statements on gender related issues since my observations have left me unable to find any way to divide humanity into male and female in a way that captures all of the things we traditionally consider male and female without excluded some people from both groups.
Perhaps it is due to my scientific background, but I am very resistant to assertions about the nature of reality when observation is possible. This causes me to disagree with many of the Vatican's statements on gender related issues since my observations have left me unable to find any way to divide humanity into male and female in a way that captures all of the things we traditionally consider male and female without excluded some people from both groups.
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Izdaari Eristikon
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Personally, I'm a ifeminist*, and I've found nothing in scripture that conflicts with that.
* Individualist feminism, or ifeminism, advocates the equal treatment of men and women as individuals under just law. The core principle of individualist feminism is that all human beings have a moral and legal claim to their own persons and property. It is sometimes called libertarian feminism.
* Individualist feminism, or ifeminism, advocates the equal treatment of men and women as individuals under just law. The core principle of individualist feminism is that all human beings have a moral and legal claim to their own persons and property. It is sometimes called libertarian feminism.
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spinningtutu
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I don't believe that women and men are ontologically different. From the standpoint of biology, humanity exists on a female-male spectrum. Generally speaking, people base too much on one's genitals.
As such, the idea of any sex segregating itself and asserting itself over everyone else is pretty loopy. However, I DO believe that from a gender standpoint, society HAS an anti-feminine norm. I DO believe that femininity has been scapegoated (discouraging nurturing traits in "men", judging "women" by their breasts, etc).
For me, to claim myself as a feminist, is not to say that people with vaginas should rule over people with penises... rather it IS to say that traits which have been stereotyped as "feminine" and thus discouraged are actually better traits for all people to inhibit. As a Christian feminist, I believe God, Christ and the Spirit are all feminine to the extent they embody these traits.
It has nothing to do with genitalia. Some of the most dominating men I've met have had vaginas... some of the sweetest most caring/nurturing women I've met have had penises.
As such, the idea of any sex segregating itself and asserting itself over everyone else is pretty loopy. However, I DO believe that from a gender standpoint, society HAS an anti-feminine norm. I DO believe that femininity has been scapegoated (discouraging nurturing traits in "men", judging "women" by their breasts, etc).
For me, to claim myself as a feminist, is not to say that people with vaginas should rule over people with penises... rather it IS to say that traits which have been stereotyped as "feminine" and thus discouraged are actually better traits for all people to inhibit. As a Christian feminist, I believe God, Christ and the Spirit are all feminine to the extent they embody these traits.
It has nothing to do with genitalia. Some of the most dominating men I've met have had vaginas... some of the sweetest most caring/nurturing women I've met have had penises.
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Anyone here ever read the Scivias, by St. Hildegard of Bingen?
She has a few chapters in it on the differences between men and women that goes beyond the physical and why men and women serve Christ in different, complementary ways (she actually says women are more privileged by the ways they can serve Christ and the unique relationship their femininity allows them to have with Him). The book itself is based on a series of mystical visions she had which are then exegetically interpreted by her--it ends up being a kind of mystical summa of Christian doctrine.
She has a few chapters in it on the differences between men and women that goes beyond the physical and why men and women serve Christ in different, complementary ways (she actually says women are more privileged by the ways they can serve Christ and the unique relationship their femininity allows them to have with Him). The book itself is based on a series of mystical visions she had which are then exegetically interpreted by her--it ends up being a kind of mystical summa of Christian doctrine.
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Take for example Caritas Pirckheimer, who was a nun during the early 16th century during the time when Luther began disbanding closters in Germany. Curiously, she was allowed to stay in her closter, from where she corresponded with other humanistic scholars outside the closter, in latin.Look at any nun you see - these are strong, rather independent womenwho I think would fit the description "Christian Feminism"!
http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/pirckhei.html
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My Brother...I am so glad that you are a steady contributer here...that you think our church should change within....like a newborn, kicking and SCREAMING.
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I think the Church, each individual member, should be in a constant state of change from within, allowing himself (or herself
) to be conformed by the Holy Spirit more and more to the objective truth revealed by God for love of us and handed down and preserved by that same Spirit for all men (and women ) in all places and all times--because He loves us that much. This is the essence of conversion and a life of sanctification--increasing discipleship 
.Change for change is not necessarily a good thing--it has to be change in the right direction and for the right reason
(I think someone must have said that at some point during this US political campaign season ).
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Mrs.Sidhe
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The "Nuns" I know ( I put nuns in quotation marks because the one Sister I'm very good friends with HATES being called a nun--lol) would fit the title of Christian feminist. The ladies in the convent of the Order of Saint Helena in my area (which is where my friend is at)are quite liberal at least in this particular convent.
Anyway, I agree that this "new feminism" is just another attempt at patriarchy to keep certain people in their place and to keep old ways of doing things or old ways of thinking.
Anyway, I agree that this "new feminism" is just another attempt at patriarchy to keep certain people in their place and to keep old ways of doing things or old ways of thinking.
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In most forms it does seem be an argument that because men and women are somehow different, whatever difference in roles or treatment the person supports are justified. It also seems that when a connection between differences and treatment is made, it tends to depend on something where on sex tends to be more one way but where there is plenty of overlap.
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Freud claimed that "anatomy is destiny."
With the advent of widespread birth control, that is no longer true.
And in most developed nations, women can engage in almost any profession, even firefighting or the military.
Feminism allows both men and women to explore the full spectrum of feelings and activity. It's OK for men to cry....to nurture children....
We should look at feminism as an opportunity for all of us to be more fully alive and to explore both the "masculine" and "feminine" aspects of our natures.
With the advent of widespread birth control, that is no longer true.
And in most developed nations, women can engage in almost any profession, even firefighting or the military.
Feminism allows both men and women to explore the full spectrum of feelings and activity. It's OK for men to cry....to nurture children....
We should look at feminism as an opportunity for all of us to be more fully alive and to explore both the "masculine" and "feminine" aspects of our natures.
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