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Christian Faith Requires the Acceptance of Creationism

Greg1234

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biblebeliver wrote:




To which Anthony responded:


Sorry, theistic evolution is by definition not naturalistic. What part of "theistic" do you fail to understand, after many post and many threads, you still post saying that theistic evolution isn't theistic. It makes it harder and harder to think that you simply don't understand, and harder to avoid the conclusion that you are being dishonest.

There's no difference. One is masquerading as physical science the other as theology. In both cases there's no data. Creationism has the literal, the interpretation and the data. What you need to do is get in contact with materialists and help them to see that their doctrine on the random formation of man shouldn't be taken literally.
 
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LOCO

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Christian Faith Requires the Acceptance of Creationism


For some Christians it may be, but not for all.

For Catholics it is not a requirement of the faith or salvation that we believe in a literal interpretation of the Creation story or theistic evolution.

We are free to believe either.

Whether we go to hell or heaven is not determined by whether we believe the Creation story or theistic evolution. God has a hand in all creation.

I believe that the human body evolved over time, however, the human soul did not evolve, it was not inherited from our parents like our bodies, it is specially created by God.

Man does not know everything about the origins of man, theologians or scientists. It remains a mystery and there is nothing wrong with saying or teaching that.
 
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Greg1234

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^_^

For Catholics it is not a requirement of the faith or salvation that we believe in a literal interpretation
There are Creationists who interpret it to mean Creationism. Some do literal. Some do the data. Some do all three. Anywhere you look that's all you see. Creationism.
I believe that the human body evolved over time,
There's no reason to adopt that and data showing that you should not.
 
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LOCO

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^_^


There are Creationists who interpret it to mean Creationism. Some do literal. Some do the data. Some do all three. Anywhere you look that's all you see. Creationism.

There's no reason to adopt that and data showing that you should not.

Of course there is scientific evidence to support the theory of human evolution. Only square earth believers would argue otherwise.

All creation whether you believe in Creationism or evolution was done so by the hand of God.

For Catholics it's not important in the big scheme of things because belief in either does not determine whether we go to heaven or hell.

Concerning biological evolution, the CC does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the CC has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.
 
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mark kennedy

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Christian Faith Requires the Acceptance of Creationism


For some Christians it may be, but not for all.

For Catholics it is not a requirement of the faith or salvation that we believe in a literal interpretation of the Creation story or theistic evolution.

We are free to believe either.

Whether we go to hell or heaven is not determined by whether we believe the Creation story or theistic evolution. God has a hand in all creation.

I believe that the human body evolved over time, however, the human soul did not evolve, it was not inherited from our parents like our bodies, it is specially created by God.

Man does not know everything about the origins of man, theologians or scientists. It remains a mystery and there is nothing wrong with saying or teaching that.

Not everything about the origin of man is a mystery.

37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own. (Humani Generis 37)​

The problem with evolution is that it is ripe with conjectural opinions that are contrary to sound doctrine. Adam cannot represent a 'certain number of first parents' so population thinking is moot with regards to human origins. Then of course there is the problem of the clear testimony of Scripture with regards to the creation of Eve from a rib or Adam taking a wife from a population of apes.

See where conjecture can lead to some head trip problems here?

For Catholics there is a salvation issue, it's called original sin:

1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offense of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offense of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent. The Fifth Session)​

Do you know what anathema means?

Grace and peace,
Mark

BTW, love the St Francis quote
 
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Greg1234

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Of course there is scientific evidence to support the theory of human evolution.
No experiment refutes Creationism. But they do refute Darwinism.

Only square earth believers would argue otherwise.
Good for them.

Concerning biological evolution, the CC does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the CC has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

Luckily for the RCC, all we see is Creationism and we already ascribe that to God. So there's no problem there.
 
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LOCO

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Not everything about the origin of man is a mystery.

37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own. (Humani Generis 37)​
The problem with evolution is that it is ripe with conjectural opinions that are contrary to sound doctrine. Adam cannot represent a 'certain number of first parents' so population thinking is moot with regards to human origins. Then of course there is the problem of the clear testimony of Scripture with regards to the creation of Eve from a rib or Adam taking a wife from a population of apes.

See where conjecture can lead to some head trip problems here?

For Catholics there is a salvation issue, it's called original sin:
1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offense of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offense of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent. The Fifth Session)​
Do you know what anathema means?

Grace and peace,
Mark

BTW, love the St Francis quote



Believing in theistic evolution does not automatically cancel out Adam and Eve.

It depends on whether you believe literally in the 6 day (24hr) creation of earth or whether you believe a day in Gods realm took longer than that.

What is one day to God? How long is one day to God?

I believe that 1 day in Genesis does not mean literally one day, that it was longer than the humans experience of one day and that an evolutionary process created by God took place to create Adam and Eve.

A Catholic can give qualified assent to evolution in the scientific sense but not to evolutionism.
The fact is that many scientists engaged in evolutionary studies are themselves devout Catholics.
These people see no contradiction between what the Church teaches and what
science, as science, has learned. Let us examine why this is so.

Catholic teachings

The Church has maintained that the first three chapters of Genesis contain
historical truth. Their inspired author used a popular literary form of
his day to explain certain historical facts of Creation. These were named
specifically by the Pontifical Biblical Commission, with the approval of
Pope Pius X in 1909. The official document states that the literal
historical meaning of the first three chapters of Genesis could not be
doubted in regard to:

"the creation of all things by God at the beginning of time; the
special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the
first man; the unity of the human race; the original happiness of our
first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the
command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of
the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a
serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state
of innocence; and the promise of a future redeemer."
In 1950, Pope Pius XII addressed the question of man's origins more
specifically in his encyclical Humani Generis. With a few terse
paragraphs, he set forth the Church's position, which are summarised as
follows:

1. The question of the origin of man's body from pre-
existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for
natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but
they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with
conjecture, and they should respect the Church's right to define matters
touching on Revelation.


2. Catholics must believe, however, that the
human soul was created immediately by God. Since the soul is a
spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation
of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each
person.

3. All men have descended from an individual, Adam, who has
transmitted original sin to all mankind. Catholics may not, therefore,
believe in "polygenism," the scientific hypothesis that mankind
descended from a group of original humans.

So, from the Catholic point of view, the scientific questions of evolution
are largely left open to debate. Evolutionary hypotheses which attempt to
explain the development of living things may be accepted except where they
conflict with these few explicit truths.

This position clearly contrasts with that of many fundamentalist Protestant
sects. Lacking belief in the Church's teaching authority, fundamentalists
have usually insisted on treating Genesis as a scientifically accurate, as
well as historically true, account. Unfortunately, this stance has often
appeared in the media as definitive Christian doctrine. Its details have
contrasted so sharply with established scientific knowledge that "Christian
belief" has been held in ridicule.


I do know what an anathema is.

Thanks, I love St Francis, such a gentle soul.:thumbsup:
 
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LOCO

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Thanks for the response Mark.

To further clarify your view, do you think that theistic evolution and Darwinian naturalistic assumptions are synonomous? If you think there is a difference, then what is that difference?


Theistic evolution attributes all creation to God.

Darwinism doesn't attribute ANY creation to God.


"Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" ccc
 
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LOCO

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No experiment refutes Creationism. But they do refute Darwinism.


Good for them.



Luckily for the RCC, all we see is Creationism and we already ascribe that to God. So there's no problem there.



No experiment confirms Creationism.

Creationism is totally dependent on 'faith'. Creation Science is 'snake oil' and will not win any arguments in scientific or academic circles let alone stand up under serious scrutiny.

Us Christians have no way of convincing others that the Creation story is true. Saying 'Well, you have to believe it because that's what it says in the Bible' is ineffective. Non-christians don't care what the Bible says, in fact it does not say anything, it cannot speak for itself.

Let me just clarify. Do you believe in Creation Science or just the literal interpretation of Genesis that the world was created in 6 days?
 
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ephesians4:2

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By no means did I read all 8 pages of discussion on this topic.

Just to put my 2 cents in. How can anyone claim to be Christian yet believe in evolution, when no where in Genesis does it discuss and say evolution was how God created everything. We may be in a fleshly form here on this earth but I think the more important point is we have souls and spirits, something no animal has. We are more spirit than flesh so why argue about the origins of our flesh. Its like arguing about what breed of mut you have when in reality its a dog in the end. We are Gods children and it hurts me to see fellow believers lower themselves to the level of an animal. Focus on God and not your fleshly origins. Who cares your bodies are gonna be dust one day.

Shouldnt we all be focusing on God because only he has all the answers and I feel most of our opinions are probably wrong. We are men, men of folly and sin. Humble yourselves and live with humility. I am overcoming this daily.

But I do believe in creationism and cannot see any truth in evolution.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
(some might say this out of context but you cannot believe in evolution and creationism, the will not mix or stand together)

Physical evolution cannot create a soul which isnt a physical substance, but spiritual, a invisible substance much like our Heavenly Father.
 
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Mikecpking

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By no means did I read all 8 pages of discussion on this topic.

Just to put my 2 cents in. How can anyone claim to be Christian yet believe in evolution, when no where in Genesis does it discuss and say evolution was how God created everything. We may be in a fleshly form here on this earth but I think the more important point is we have souls and spirits, something no animal has.

Where in the bible did you get that? Animals are souls and have spirits according to the bible.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-19

New International Version (NIV)


18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[a]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

Footnotes:
  1. Ecclesiastes 3:19 Or spirit
Also animals are called 'nephesh' which is translated as soul or 'creature' (Gen 2:7, Gen 2:19)

So to come out with a sweeping statement like yours, if animals and humans are 'nephesh', then to me, the idea of being made of the same 'stuff' is no problem so evolution for me is the way that God creates.

Furthermore, some theological will show you many different writing styles, picture language and metaphor which of course, cannot be taken literally (1/3rd of the stars fallling to earth? Come on!)

We are more spirit than flesh so why argue about the origins of our flesh. Its like arguing about what breed of mut you have when in reality its a dog in the end. We are Gods children and it hurts me to see fellow believers lower themselves to the level of an animal. Focus on God and not your fleshly origins. Who cares your bodies are gonna be dust one day.

Answered above, but spirit is 'breath'



Job 27:3

New International Version (NIV)


3 as long as I have life within me,
the breath of God in my nostrils,



Shouldnt we all be focusing on God because only he has all the answers and I feel most of our opinions are probably wrong. We are men, men of folly and sin. Humble yourselves and live with humility. I am overcoming this daily.

But I do believe in creationism and cannot see any truth in evolution.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
(some might say this out of context but you cannot believe in evolution and creationism, the will not mix or stand together)

Physical evolution cannot create a soul which isnt a physical substance, but spiritual, a invisible substance much like our Heavenly Father.

Can you show me where the bible speaks about a 'soul' somehow being not bound up in the body? The biblical soul dies at physical death

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30
 
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Papias

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LOCO-

The RCC support for theistic evolution has been explained to mark many times, both in multiple threads as well as in a debate I had with him at this link:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7554304/#post57655207

You can see from both of those that the just uses the same word games and deceptive tactics seen in some other creationists. He's been fully appraised of the fact that theistic evolution is fully allowable, and that this is shown in humani generis, the CC, and many other sources. It's also been fully explained to mark several times that the idea of Adam as a transitional ape, the first human with a divinely created soul, solves both his perceived issues of original sin and polygenism. However, mark ignores this, and will try to claim you are anathema (one holding a prohibited view in the RCC) for espousing polygenism, even though you don't and he knows this.

Perhaps the clearest support for theistic evolution is from the commission the Pope himself was the head of (before he became Pope), which stated:

....................Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. .................... Cardinal Ratzinger and International Theological Commission on Creation and Evolution
LOCO wrote:
This position [the RCC allowing theistic evolution] clearly contrasts with that of many fundamentalist Protestant
sects. Lacking belief in the Church's teaching authority, fundamentalists
have usually insisted on treating Genesis as a scientifically accurate, as
well as historically true, account. Unfortunately, this stance has often
appeared in the media as definitive Christian doctrine. Its details have
contrasted so sharply with established scientific knowledge that "Christian
belief" has been held in ridicule.

Right. Time and again I point out that the YEC's are converting more Christians to atheism than any new atheist could dream of. Even St. Augustine pointed out this danger ~1500 years ago. Here is his quote: A Disgraceful and Dangerous Thing | www.righteousmonster.com

This same point is true also for Chrisitans who use deceptive tactics and falsehoods, even after being caught many times doing so. Such Christians make Christianity look immoral, after they've made Christianity look ignorant.

And we wonder why so many are leaving Christianity? :doh:

Papias
 
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Greg1234

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No experiment confirms Creationism.

Creationism is totally dependent on 'faith'. Creation Science is 'snake oil' and will not win any arguments in scientific or academic circles let alone stand up under serious scrutiny.
All historical events are taken on faith. The fact remains that there is no reason to adopt materialistic faith. You cannot confirm Creationism with physical science. All experiments support it though. They also refute materialism.

Us Christians have no way of convincing others that the Creation story is true. Saying 'Well, you have to believe it because that's what it says in the Bible' is ineffective. Non-christians don't care what the Bible says, in fact it does not say anything, it cannot speak for itself.
It's good that you are speaking for non-Christians but what so they have to do with anything? Materialists ask you to pick up the random formation of man strictly on a faith basis. Creation overlaps into physical science by the way. Just like protein synthesis overlaps into sports science. Physical science is not the source of Creationism.

Let me just clarify. Do you believe in Creation Science or just the literal interpretation of Genesis that the world was created in 6 days?
Are you a big-bang Darwinist? Do you believe in the random formation of man which states that everything originated via a singularity? You have to love that enduring tangent.
 
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philadiddle

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You tell me, at what point can we scientifically conclude special creation? Genus, Phylum, Kingdom? More importantly based on what, the clear testimony of Scripture, the limits of and lack of evidence for molecular mechanisms required?

I'm saying that the a priori assumption of universal common descent is mutually exclusive with God as Creator. I'm saying that Darwinian naturalistic assumptions are universal acid, a transcendent metaphysical axiom that excludes God as cause, period.

So if you think there is an exception or I am exaggerating or unfairly characterizing Theistic Evolution then feel free to show me the error in my reasoning.

Grace and peace,
Mark
You say that Darwinian naturalistic assumptions exclude God as a cause. I'm still trying to clarify here, do you think theistic evolution is the exact same in that it also excludes god as a cause or is God meaningful in the TEs view? I'm just trying to unravel your understanding of our view.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Does Christian faith demand that a person agree with all your interpretations of the Bible or only when it comes to evolution? Maybe you should give everyone a list of things you believe so they can play it safe and agree with you? I'm sure people wouldn't want to be without Christian faith / disagree with you.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Evolution can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Neither can it rule out or prove that God is the origin of everything including life. Biology isn't the right field for that sort of inquiry. One might as well claim that basket weaving disproves poetry.
 
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LOCO

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Evolution can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Neither can it rule out or prove that God is the origin of everything including life. Biology isn't the right field for that sort of inquiry. One might as well claim that basket weaving disproves poetry.

The same could be said of creationism. It doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.

Believing in a theistic evolutionary process does not automatically exclude Adam and Eve.

As a Christian it's purely a matter of faith that God had a hand in all creation. Now, whether you believe that God created Adam and Eve literally as it says in the Bible or whether an evolutionary process was used is a moot point because God has a hand in all creation regardless of process.

Like I said earlier, theologians are divided over the literal intepretation of Genesis creation story. Some argue a day to God could well be a thousand years in human time. Others take the literal interpretation. Both are equally valid for a Christian to believe because both were authored by the hand of God.

Mothers co-create life with God, although he is the author they participate in that creation of life. It doesn't minimise Gods role it only serves to magnify Our Lords greatness.

The literal intepretation of Genesis creation story was not believed by Jews throughout history or today, it is a modern manmade idea.


Chronological Reading of Genesis (CAF)



'According to the chronological reading, the six days of creation should be understood to have followed each other in strict chronological order. This view is often coupled with the claim that the six days were standard 24-hour days.

Some have denied that they were standard days on the basis that the Hebrew word used in this passage for day (yom) can sometimes mean a longer-than-24-hour period (as it does in Genesis 2:4). However, it seems clear that Genesis 1 presents the days to us as standard days. At the end of each one is a formula like, "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (Gen. 1:5). Evening and morning are, of course, the transition points between day and night (this is the meaning of the Hebrew terms here), but periods of time longer than 24 hours are not composed of a day and a night. Genesis is presenting these days to us as 24-hour, solar days. If we are not meant to understand them as 24-hour days, it would most likely be because Genesis 1 is not meant to be understood as a literal chronological account.

That is a possibility. Pope Pius XII warned us, "What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use. For the ancient peoples of the East, in order to express their ideas, did not always employ those forms or kinds of speech which we use today; but rather those used by the men of their times and countries. What those exactly were the commentator cannot determine as it were in advance, but only after a careful examination of the ancient literature of the East" (Divino Afflante Spiritu 35–36).

The Topical Reading


This leads us to the possiblity that Genesis 1 is to be given a non-chronological, topical reading. Advocates of this view point out that, in ancient literature, it was common to sequence historical material by topic, rather than in strict chronological order.

The argument for a topical ordering notes that at the time the world was created, it had two problems—it was "formless and empty" (1:2). In the first three days of creation, God solves the formlessness problem by structuring different.aspects of the environment.

On day one he separates day from night; on day two he separates the waters below (oceans) from the waters above (clouds), with the sky in between; and on day three he separates the waters below from each other, creating dry land. Thus the world has been given form.

But it is still empty, so on the second three days God solves the world’s emptiness problem by giving occupants to each of the three realms he ordered on the previous three days. Thus, having solved the problems of formlessness and emptiness, the task he set for himself, God’s work is complete and he rests on the seventh day.

Real History


The argument is that all of this is real history, it is simply ordered topically rather than chronologically, and the ancient audience of Genesis, it is argued, would have understood it as such.

Even if Genesis 1 records God’s work in a topical fashion, it still records God’s work—things God really did.

The Catechism explains that "Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine ‘work,’ concluded by the ‘rest’ of the seventh day" (CCC 337), but "nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history is rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun" (CCC 338).

It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use'.
 
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LOCO

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All historical events are taken on faith. The fact remains that there is no reason to adopt materialistic faith. You cannot confirm Creationism with physical science. All experiments support it though. They also refute materialism.


It's good that you are speaking for non-Christians but what so they have to do with anything? Materialists ask you to pick up the random formation of man strictly on a faith basis. Creation overlaps into physical science by the way. Just like protein synthesis overlaps into sports science. Physical science is not the source of Creationism.


Are you a big-bang Darwinist? Do you believe in the random formation of man which states that everything originated via a singularity? You have to love that enduring tangent.


I am saying what Catholics are free to believe - that God has a hand in all creation regardless of whether the process was instantaneous or evolved over a period of time.

You can only speak for yourself, not all Christians.

I am also saying that the CC teaches that believing in one or the other does NOT determine whether you go to heaven or hell because both are attributed to God.

What other Christians choose to believe is their prerogative, whatever their ecclesial communities elders, councils etc. decide on this issue.

No, I am not a big-bang Darwinist. Darwin did not believe God had a hand in ANY creation, whereas I believe God has a hand in ALL creation regardless of process.

I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story. I've explained the different schools of thought in my earlier message.
 
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Greg1234

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The same could be said of creationism. It doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.
No actually, the same could not be said of Creationism.

Believing in an evolutionary process does not automatically exclude Adam and Eve.

You have to love this little piece right there. Since when did accepting the assertion of a materialist because it doesn't automatically exclude A and B become an option? Do you guys even know how you sound? The battle between materialism and idealism is drawn out. This generation however seems to be content with slinking back in fear of materialistic bloviations

You've said nothing up there but "Creationism cannot be proven and materialism's random building of man cannot be proven", so lets pick up materialistic doctrine. It's quite telling to see what's becoming of you guys (impersonators who don the Christian icon to seed materialism here are excluded).

If you have the data then present it. No experiment has ever refuted Creationism and they simultaneously point to it. You cannot prove a historical event anymore can you can prove that the Great Pyramid was intelligently designed. No experiment has refuted that either.
 
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Greg1234

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I am saying what Catholics are free to believe - that God has a hand in all creation regardless of whether the process was instantaneous or evolved over a period of time.
I'm saying that there's no reason to believe that. You're simply asking me to accept materialistic assertions because one can.
You can only speak for yourself, not all Christians.
And who are you speaking for exactly? Are you even aware of the fact that you're being used to promote materialism?
No, I am not a big-bang Darwinist. Darwin did not believe God had a hand in ANY creation, whereas I believe God has a hand in ALL creation regardless of process.
There is no reason to believe that God had his hand in a non-viable process.
I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story. I've explained the different schools of thought in my earlier message.
Creationism is in the literal, it's in the interpretation, it's in the data. It's in the Old, it's reaffirmed in the New. Everywhere you look, you see Creationism.
 
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