Christian elves - (not directly role-play related)

romancatholicdragon · Oct 18, 2004

elven_believer said:
yeah... its like... suuuuure! a wyrm just doesn't sound...good LOL

Apparently the closest living invertebrate relative to humans
genetically speaking is a mud worm that lives in some scandinavian lake

romancatholicdragon · Oct 18, 2004

Kelly said:
Thanks Eru...

I think I need your definition of what being elven is. Do you feel it's all spiritual/mental, or is it represented physically (i.e. your blood, any change to appearance, your DNA, your lifespan).

If you mean that your elven nature comes from the set of values you have, then you are not elven, but rather following an elven way of life.
.

A lot of dragonkin seem to see phantom wings and tails.I suppose the closest
thing in the bible might be those halos you always see in the paintings of saints.From what I recall when the two apostles followed jesus up that
mountain and he suddenly had the two prophets with him,the two apostles
saw him in his transfigured form.The otherkin closest analogy might be the
" true form"
Whether thats Jesus or Satan involved in the " trueform " is I
suppose a matter of opinion

romancatholicdragon · Oct 18, 2004

Kelly said:
FIrst of all I feel that dragons, or something like them, existed. I feel that it is referenced in Job (I do not believe that was a Crocodile as some translations have assumed). I think there is enough examples of dragons in every culture's legends that there HAS to be some real basis for them. Do they exist now...I don't think so. How do you feel your kin-ness with dragons? How do you think it relates to your faith and understanding that we are all made in God's image? Could you accept even the possibility that you are being deceived or are deluded in your feelings? If God spoke to you and claimed your feelings were not from Him, but from the Great Deceiver, would you distance yourself from your feelings of kinship? Thanks for any reply, and feel free to discuss other aspects of it.

As for the process
of kiness,generally there are three ingredients-the mystical experience
the logic/questioning process and the faith.Its not a simple
" Bingo,I'm a ( name creature here " process.Generally the ones
who say " I am absolutely 100% a ( critter) " are either chain yankers or
truly delusionional.If there is such a thing as " real McCoy " otherkn,their
self doubting/checking /balancing mechanism is alive and well.If Satan is involved in the process,they're probably as qualified as you or anyone
else to determine so.

romancatholicdragon · Oct 18, 2004

Lady_Firehawk said:
Well, I took the Dragons=Satan logic and applied it to Dungeons and Dragons! That was... fun, hehehe.

Meh... I do a search for Christian Otherkin and half the time it's some kind of slam on Christianity... bleh.

Generaly otherkn exagerate how christians view otherkin and vice versa

As for Satanic dragons
I recall God having this critter called Leviathon that he looks in on each day.Apparently in the end God will feed leviathon to the Righteous
but general impression I have is that leviathon is Gods Pet.

Some books call Leviathon a dragon.

If we take the various saints as a proxy for Christs attitude towards
dragons,they did plenty of taming and driving out
St Phillip drove one out of a temple
St margaret tamed one
St patrick drove out the snakes( serpents=dragon)
and generally it was the ungrateful masses who went and killed the beasts
I believe St Margaret actually pleaded for the villagers to spare
the dragon she had tamed
so couple that with various interpretations of Christs parables about
sinners and the Master and there is some wiggle room for a dragon in
regards to their relationship with God.

romancatholicdragon · Oct 18, 2004

Lady_Firehawk said:
Dude, you need to feed your turtle!

Hehehe... 'other' otherkin... how did this 'Awakening' happen, anyway? And how do you know it was God? (I'm really terrible with discernment...)

?

Well just like christians like to keep some of their stuff out of the
public eyes( such as a mass) otherkin like to keep their secrets.
Just like exposing everything ( confession for example) to the
public woud cheapen and destroy the sacredness of the sacrement,same
thing goes with most personal otherkin stuff.Most otherkin who
' told all" regret it afterwards

romancatholicdragon · Oct 18, 2004

onikirimaru777 said:
The bible isn't very specific about the otherkin, QUOTE]

two issues
I doubt Jesus and the rest of the gang spoke the english language.
Even the old english from a thousand years ago barely resembles the
language you'll find in the english bibles of today.

So theres probably some wiggle room and room for interpretation there.
Personally i go for Christs thing for sinners when I'm trying to see what
Christ has to say on the subject of otherkin.

Also a look in a dictionary shows each word often has multiple meanings.
So more seat of the pants interpretation of Gods word.

The cultural issue.
Close as I can tell if I trace the english version of the bible back sooner
or later it'll come down to a anglo saxon teutonic scandinavian version
of the bible.The thing is those cultures DID NOT think of a dragon as
some kind of angelic being as one might see in some otherkin
fantasy portraits of a dragon.Basically that culture were thinking about
big ugly winged snakes> serpents
So we're not talking about " angelic dragons" such as portrayed
today,but as " sinner man " snakes

Whether the saints,christ,the prophets had the same view of
dragons as the anglos is anyones guess,but since the anglos were
about a 1000 years closer to Christs lifetime than we are,I'd tend to
view dragons as sinners in need of Gods love ( or grudging acceptance
at worst as with that debt reducing cheater I mentioned earlier)
rather then as superior angelic magical beings as some dragonkin like to view themselves as

romancatholicdragon · Oct 19, 2004

DARRIONS said:
Okay, I don't want to offend anyone at all, but I am going to be very blunt. God did not make anyone a dragon or an elf or a farie. Most importantly, God did not make our souls those things. Where would you come up with something like that? Our souls are just that, our souls. No one has a dragon for a soul, or an elf for a soul. Sorry, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that. And, I'm sorry, but until you give me a scripture that says that God made our souls into fantasy creatures, you have nothing to argue with.

Our souls are eternal. Our souls are what goes to Heaven. Our souls are what Satan and Jesus are constantly fighting over. To go so far as to say that our souls are fantasy creatures is insaine. Sorry, I believe that my soul is my soul. It's not an elf, or a dragon or anything of the sort. My soul belongs to Christ.

A theologian could probably write a bible sized essay on the subject,but
I'll just sketch out a short outline.

The general impression I get is that the major thrust behind the bible
is about imperfection.Theres the Son of God and his sinners,the first
shall be last,the last shall be first,the imperfect fallen angel snake
offering Adam and Eve what is essentially the gift of perfection,etc

So what we have is the perfect book on imperfection.Basically two
opposites in one package.

Well the closest thing the dragonkin theology has gotten is the symbolism
of the dragon as representing both death and rebirth.If you grind through
the logic sooner or later it comes down to a dragon being two opposites
in one package.

Hence the bible has a pretty major draconic quality to it.

Starcrystal · Sep 20, 2007

Wow, what an old thread! I found it doing a search on Cf for 'elves."
Anyways, the 3 year old OP that mentions Christianelfcommunity...... I'm a member and a moderator of that group.
Yes, there are "Christian Elves." Yes Elves exist, and I've been around the ring with the scoffers enough on this topic.
What might not exist are the Santa type elves, or the make believe elves of stories, but there are real Elves.... best portrayed by those in Tolkiens writings....

Kelly · Sep 20, 2007

Oh my, this thread,

There is no such things as elves, it is just more new age, feel good poppycock, a deception of the devil. Man is man, anything else unexplainable is an angel or a demon.

People need to stop wasting their lives pretending to be something greater than a man and just realize that God made us in His image, with a brain and ability to have free will. Just accept that God made you just like everyone else.

Simon_Templar · Sep 20, 2007

Starcrystal said:
Wow, what an old thread! I found it doing a search on Cf for 'elves."
Anyways, the 3 year old OP that mentions Christianelfcommunity...... I'm a member and a moderator of that group.
Yes, there are "Christian Elves." Yes Elves exist, and I've been around the ring with the scoffers enough on this topic.
What might not exist are the Santa type elves, or the make believe elves of stories, but there are real Elves.... best portrayed by those in Tolkiens writings....

Whether or not elves exist, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the matter... as in where do you think elves came from? what defines an elf as opposed to a human? How does one know if they are elf, or part elf? Why do you believe elves exist? and so on.

Simon_Templar · Sep 20, 2007

The problem with the idea of otherkin in the sense of different souls is two fold in scripture.

First, the human soul was created directly by an infusion of God's spirit into a human body. When Adam was created God formed his body of the dust of the earth and then God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and when that breath entered his body, he became a living soul.

The word for breath is the same as spirit. The spirit there comes directly from God's Spirit.
The soul, was then created by the interaction of the divine spirit, with the body of earth.

This is reflected throughout the rest of scripture. The word "soul" in both hebrew and greek literally means "living creature".. we make a distinction between body and soul, but the soul is uniquely joined to the body.. so much that Paul refers to our current body as a "soulish body".

If you have a human body, your soul is, then, by definition human because it is linked to your body.

the second problem is that Paul backs this up in the very passage where he talks about our us being a soulish body. He says there as well that each kind of creature is uniquely made and different. Each kind of creature has its own specific nature and they are differentiated from each other. This would seem to contradict the idea that God intermixes humans with other creatures on the soulish level.

Now, as chance would have it, there are biblical examples of instances in which humans WERE intermixed with other types of creatures on the spiritual and soulish level. This occured before the flood and also afterwards and is commonly refered to by the name nephilim, although other names are involved as well, such as Rephaim, Gibborim, etc.

In every one of these incidents, the mixing of humans with 'other' was seen as the greatest of abominations. In the first case it lead to the flood, with the indication that Noah and his family survived, partially because they may have been the only remaining family on earth that was unmixed with the other.

In the later incident, it lead to the conquest of Canaan when God directed the Israelites to wipe out almost all the inhabitants because they were corrupted.

thus the idea of mixed or 'other' soulishness is very very problematic scripturally.

Starcrystal · Sep 21, 2007

Simon_Templar said:
The problem with the idea of otherkin in the sense of different souls is two fold in scripture.

First, the human soul was created directly by an infusion of God's spirit into a human body. When Adam was created God formed his body of the dust of the earth and then God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and when that breath entered his body, he became a living soul.

The word for breath is the same as spirit. The spirit there comes directly from God's Spirit.
The soul, was then created by the interaction of the divine spirit, with the body of earth.

This is reflected throughout the rest of scripture. The word "soul" in both hebrew and greek literally means "living creature".. we make a distinction between body and soul, but the soul is uniquely joined to the body.. so much that Paul refers to our current body as a "soulish body".

If you have a human body, your soul is, then, by definition human because it is linked to your body.

the second problem is that Paul backs this up in the very passage where he talks about our us being a soulish body. He says there as well that each kind of creature is uniquely made and different. Each kind of creature has its own specific nature and they are differentiated from each other. This would seem to contradict the idea that God intermixes humans with other creatures on the soulish level.

Now, as chance would have it, there are biblical examples of instances in which humans WERE intermixed with other types of creatures on the spiritual and soulish level. This occured before the flood and also afterwards and is commonly refered to by the name nephilim, although other names are involved as well, such as Rephaim, Gibborim, etc.

In every one of these incidents, the mixing of humans with 'other' was seen as the greatest of abominations. In the first case it lead to the flood, with the indication that Noah and his family survived, partially because they may have been the only remaining family on earth that was unmixed with the other.

In the later incident, it lead to the conquest of Canaan when God directed the Israelites to wipe out almost all the inhabitants because they were corrupted.

thus the idea of mixed or 'other' soulishness is very very problematic scripturally.

I agree that in most cases Nephilim type people were sinners. At least you admit they were also AFTER the flood, not just before.
But I don't necessarily think Elves are Nephilim, at least not sinful types. I have traced some Elven lineage to the Anunnaki, who are basically Nephilim. But I think Adam was originally created "Elven" since he and Eve were made to be imortal and had all the knowledge of animals and such. Adams sin of course destroyed this blessing. I also believe Jesus had elven qualities. Melchizedek I believe was an Elf.. Elves and humans are not very far removed from one another and the portrayal in LOTR of Elves being able to mate with the race of men is quite accurate....

Kelly · Sep 21, 2007

Paul wrote a letter that comes to mind here:

I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. (2 Cor)

I think I'm going to wash my hands of this thread, with a final warning to please be careful about the adding what you "think", or what you "feel" to your faith. Our thoughts and emotions can blind us from the truth. Blessings.

murraylikespie · Sep 21, 2007

Your an elf? Yeah ok thats just dumb Im sorry. This doesnt belong in an rpg section. And if you think your an elf. Hope you get some help there.

TrueImpossibility · Sep 21, 2007

Awww, this thread makes me sad. I don't like finding out about new groups of people who think they are Christians and yet are living very dangerously in the fate of going to Hell. Saying it's okay to actually believe you are an elf or a dragon or whatever is almost as bad as saying you actually believe there is a Zues and Mars. I love hearing stories about Greek gods and mythology, things like that, but to actually believe any of it ... NO WAY!

I believe what God instructs me to believe. Anything else is dangerous and risking the eternal home of your soul.

Besides, I am something far better than any elf/dragon/hippopotamus. But only because of who I am in God. The soul of anything else can claim that blessing.

Starcrystal · Sep 22, 2007

It is sad that many Christians respond in a negative way on this topic. It's also funny because most of those who either don't beleive in Elves, or think Elves are some sort if satanic thing are churchgoesrs who attend services that are a far cry from how the original church functioned.
I've seen Christians scoff at the mention of any being living under the earth, but in Philippians 2;10 and Revelation 5;13 it's clear there is life existing under the earth. These verses aren't clear whether that life (or spirits) are good or bad, but in Ecclesiates it mentiones that the spirits of beasts (animals) go down into the earth...
Just one example where Christians get so caught up in denominational indoctrination that they refuse to see the truth right in front of their eyes.
Historically there always were Elves and there are Elves.
In the 1600s Rev. Robert Kirk wrote 'The Secret Commonwealth Of Elves, Fauns & Faeries" which was published in 1861 and still available today. He had his own experiences with these beings and also interviewed several folk who had had experiences. One of his quotes states that he was convinced they were "creatures of God" and could interact with the human world.

murraylikespie · Sep 22, 2007

Starcrystal said:
It is sad that many Christians respond in a negative way on this topic. It's also funny because most of those who either don't beleive in Elves, or think Elves are some sort if satanic thing are churchgoesrs who attend services that are a far cry from how the original church functioned.
I've seen Christians scoff at the mention of any being living under the earth, but in Philippians 2;10 and Revelation 5;13 it's clear there is life existing under the earth. These verses aren't clear whether that life (or spirits) are good or bad, but in Ecclesiates it mentiones that the spirits of beasts (animals) go down into the earth...
Just one example where Christians get so caught up in denominational indoctrination that they refuse to see the truth right in front of their eyes.
Historically there always were Elves and there are Elves.
In the 1600s Rev. Robert Kirk wrote 'The Secret Commonwealth Of Elves, Fauns & Faeries" which was published in 1861 and still available today. He had his own experiences with these beings and also interviewed several folk who had had experiences. One of his quotes states that he was convinced they were "creatures of God" and could interact with the human world.

If elves were real then it would say something about them in the bible. And even if they are real, it says that only humans have souls. Which means that elves would not be intelligent enough to make that choice.

Starcrystal · Sep 22, 2007

murraylikespie said:
If elves were real then it would say something about them in the bible. And even if they are real, it says that only humans have souls. Which means that elves would not be intelligent enough to make that choice.

And where does it say only humans have souls? Actually the word "humans" is not found in scripture. The word for "man" in the OT is "Adam" which litterally means "red or ruddy." The interpretation that it simply means "human" is a generic one. The other word translated "man" is "Iysh" which simply means a male or male person, or a husband (male.)

"Souls" simply means "That which breathes" or "the breath of life." (Hebrew: Nephesh). By extent it can also mean the conscious mind. This is the common NT translation of the word "psyche." In definition 1 of psyche it is "the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing; a) of animals, b) of men" Um, I don't see it meaning ONLY humans here, but all living creatures.
And in eccelsiastes 3:21 the same word (ruwach) is used for spirit of both man and beasts (behemah = all beasts), of which the latter go downward (litterally, to go below, under, beaneath: Heb - Mattah) to the Earth.

So, I have to tell you that your theory has no backing. And your comment "Which means that elves would not be intelligent enough to make that choice..." is not based on any fact, Biblical or otherwise since the Bible does not teach that only humans have souls and spirits.

People tend to overlook facts such as these :

Here are a few more quotes showing Tolkien did not write fantasy, and in fact his material was based on real things:

From JRR Tolkien
Master of Imaginary Worlds. by Edward Willet

As he worked on his Finnish inspired languages , he realized that languages have roots in things that happened long ago. He began to try to invent the legends in which his own invented languages must have their roots, if they were to be ' real.' (37)

We know Tolkien was a Philologist, that is a student & professor of languages. One thing he learned early on was that all words have roots in ancient events, even words he could follow from one language to another. He worked mainly with Welch and Finnish as far as Elven languages. We know both Wales and Finland have a rich Elven history. Therefore the languages he worked with did in fact have roots in the past to the Elven people.

From, The World of Tolkien by David Day

Eala Earendel engla beorohtast - Ofer middangeard monnum sended.
Hail Earendel brightest of angels - Above Middle-earth sent unto men. (8)

Earenel (from which Tolkien draws the name Earendil) was the name of the Morning Star, and the above quote comes from an Old English mystical poem entitled Crist of Cynewulf.

The Voyage of Earendil that Tolkien wrote was "his attempt to re create a story that captured the essential spirit, or 'true tradition' of a lost civilization." (9)

As anthropologists might attempt to reconstruct a lost civilization through fragments of physical evidence, so philologists saw in recovered fragments of languages and literature the possibility of reconstructing the primary myths and, therefore, the cosmos of long vanished nations. (10)

Tolkien believed that "myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode." He believed it was only through myth that a "glimpse of the underlying reality of truth" of human life coyuld be revealed. (10)

Tolkien is not a fantasy writer. Or at least not in the way such categories are usually established. Strictly speaking, he does not make up imaginary worlds or places. Still less does he fit the category of science fiction... So Middle -earth is not meant to be a "fantasy" at all. Tolkien didn't really read or write "fantasy" fiction to "escape from reality". Quite the opposite, he wrote to learn about the real world. (14 - 15)

The last quote is important as it shows the author of The World of Tolkien feels the literature about Middle-earth is not fantasy at all. This is the same thing many of us have argued against those who would lump Tolkien in with "make believe" fantasy and pure fiction.

****

One of the biggest parts of Tolkiens writing that shows he wrote no mere fantasy is his history of Numenor (Atalante or Atlantis)

In the histories of the mighty Sea Kings of the island nation of Numenor which so dominated the Second Age, we find Tolkien motivated by personal vision. It should come as no surprise to us that Tolkien believed that some myths were essentially inherited racial memories of ancient historic events. Tolkien truly enters the realm of the mystic, however, with his belief that he had inherited an ancient memory through his dreams.

From early childhood, Tolkien experienced one recurring nightmare: "...of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields." What was most frightening, even in his "half wakened" state was the feeling that it was more a vivid memory than a bad dream. However Tolkien never wished to discuss this "terrible recurring dream," especially not with his children. As a result, Tolkien did not learn until years later that, remarkably, his son Michael had experienced in early childhood the same recurring dream of the "Great Wave."

Tolkien's ideas of racial memory extended to the recognition of ancestral languages. As he once explained to WH Auden: "I am a West-midlander by blood (and took to early West-midland Middle English as a known language as soon as I set eyes on it),...." For Auden, the idea of a language unspoken for seven centuries being recognized as a "known tongue" had a charm and an aesthetic truth, delightful to poets and spiritualists.

In High Elvish, the name of their kingdom was Atalante or, as the ancient Greeks knew it, Atlantis. In his histories, Tolkien presents the "true" history of the fate of Atlantis.

From The World of Tolkien by David Day, pgs 100 & 102

The evidence completely refutes the claims by many I have come in contact with who believe Tolkien was nothing but a masterful fantasy writer. When I have tried to show how Tolkien was a seer or prophet who had ancestral memories or visions they just balked. Yet Tolkien himself believed he had ancestral memories, which he calls "racial memories."

Now some people might dismiss the "myth" of Atlantis as being untrue, yet a couple factors lean towards it being true. First of all it is a collective "memory" held by many different races and cultures, as are creation myths, legends of sky people, and a great worldwide flood. All of which have backing evidence which would be too bulky to cite here, though I'll post some key points.

Secondly in The World of Tolkien pg 104 it speaks of the mid 1960s discovery of an Aegean island kingdom which was destroyed in the second millenium BC called Thera - now known as Santorini. It was a prosperous sea faring kindom not unlike Atlantis (though smaller in geographical size) and it was destroyed in one day by a volcanic eruption and subsequent great wave.

Here we have irrefutable proof of at least one island kingdom that was destroyed in Atlantis legend-like fashion.

I personally believe Atlantis / Numenor was in what we now know as the Atlantic ocean, though critics have often postulated why this couldn't be. However, I did present some evidence on this forum a time ago that in places the earths crust actually rolls under adjoining crust at fault lines and the one crust dives under the other and goes into the magma layer. Such a cataclysm in the past could easily have occured and then sealed up which would leave no contemporary geological evidence.
Of course detractors would like to say that citing the lack of evidence and an excuse for it is not evidence at all.

Yet we still have the worldwide collective memory of Atlantis. How can that be explained away?

We also have people who believe all geologic changes have happened gradually, but the truth is there have been cataclysmic changes that can change the shape of land masses and ocean levels in short periods of time. the Thera /santorini cataclysm is one such piece of historical fact.

We have the worldwide memory of a great flood, coupled with the fact marine fossils are found thousands of miles inland on present day land masses, and at extemely high elevations on mountains. There are also layered deposits in some parts of the world that geologists say were layed down in short time by a great amount of water.

I believe in the pre flood world the mountains were much lower than today, maybe 2000 - 3000 feet above sea level. The Bible speaks of the "fountains of the great deep" being broken up, and many believe these to be underwater volcanos. The waters rose and land masses sank and moved, therefore the flood waters did not necessarily have to be 20,000 and more feet deep which they would have to be to cover todays mountains.
During the cataclysm and towards the end of the flooding land masses moved and slammed into each other and this is where we get our present day mountain ranges. No place is more evident of this than where India joins Asia and Mount Everest stands over 29,000 above sea level.

Interestingly for those who believe all these geologic changes happen gradually over millions of years, we can see the only changes that happen slowly are erosive, and a slight amount of continental drift that could not account for such radical mountain ranges being pushed up since erosion would wear down the ranges almost as quickly as the moving land masses built them.
But we can observe from volcanos that these have the ability to create new land or sink existing land in a very short period of time, as well as cause massive flooding and earthquakes that change the contours of lands. Mount St. Helens blew off 1/3 of her top. In Hawaii a Volcano added more land to the shoreline. Through observation we see the most drastic changes in the earth have come about by cataclysms rather than slow changes.

These things also validate Tolkiens dream memories.

murraylikespie · Sep 22, 2007

You know what, I dont have the time to read that all. Your not an elf, I know your not elf. Elves arent real. So I am done with arguing about this stupid thing.

LisaStar · Sep 22, 2007

murraylikespie said:
You know what, I dont have the time to read that all. Your not an elf, I know your not elf. Elves arent real. So I am done with arguing about this stupid thing.

Are you sure you can say that without studying about it? Your profile says your 14 so i would imagine you are still in school. You are saying you don't have time to read that all, so how can you say "elves are not real" without even trying to learn the other side of the story?

I know I and my husband are Elves and we have Elven ancestors. It was a long time ago but we have had the experience and done the research. In fact we are still doing the research. This isn't something we came to believe in lightly in a short time. In fact we are still researching and learning. It's been over four years now since we learned for sure that Elves were real and we had ancestors who were Elves.

We have spent hours and days over these years studying ancient sources online and in libraries. My husband even did some research in college and his English final essay was on the Elves, which he got an "A" on. I just don't see how anyone can just dismiss the possibility without even bothering to do any study. If someones mind is closed then I would be worried that God would have a hard time getting through.

I just would hope some of you would be willing to learn and at least be open to things that your general education and society has said does not exist. Some people say God does not exist, but do you believe that? You know he exists because you have the experience with God and you've studied God. So when someone says elves don't exist but they have nothing to back that up it's really sad.

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