Christian Denial...how do you reconcile it?

[Ana the Ist]

God says: go to surf.
Then he quits the job and becomes a surfer.
Good or bad, regret or not, that is the answer from God.
That means: God will take the responsibility of the consequence, if the person is hurt or even died from the surfing.
In a bad situation, some capable one takes the full responsibility. Do you appreciate the meaning of it?

No.

I really don't know what you're saying here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

My third wife. The short version is I thought God 'sent her to me'. I don't think that any more.

No. I didn't see a cross in the sky or a burning bush or anything really sexy like that. Didn't even have my lottery ticket win. But I did some praying and felt like marrying that last one was 'right'.

The slightly longer version is I didn't do all of it properly. There are times I am my own worst enemy. But I'm learning.

Now. Here's the reason it doesn't seem to work all the time. Or ever, for that matter.

I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Almighty God through the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Therefore, God 'owns' me. God has a goal for me; God wants me - and all Christians - to be Holy, just as He is Holy.

So when I pray, one of the conditions is that I pray in accordance with God's will. God's will - for discussion and teaching purposes - is divided into two sections, a 'general will' and a 'specific will'. While I should rather aware of God's 'general will' - all people understanding and accepting Jesus as Savior, an end to family, plague and so on - I may or may not be perfectly aware of God's 'specific will' for me. For instance, I don't know when I'm going to the range again. I don't know if God wants me there today, tomorrow or doesn't give a hoot when I go. (I suspect the latter, but I cannot be sure.)

The other condition for praying is I must listen. I must give God time to 'tell' me the answer to my question. Please understand, it does not come in the form of something like the public announcement system at the bus station. Nor the message to Paul on the road to Damascus. It usually comes when my mind is involved in the issue itself and surrendered to God.

If you want to think I'm merely solving my own problems, feel free if that makes you feel better. It's going on in my head and frankly I know better than you do.

Remember the part earlier about God wanting me to be Holy, as He is Holy?

God's primary desire is not for me to be happy. He prefers me to be happy, but not at the cost of being Holy. God does not want for me to be rich. It's okay with God for me to be rich, but only after being Holy. Same for health, fame, smart, well-spoken, charming, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. All that stuff is great, but HOLY comes first. Many of those qualities are by-products of being Holy.

So prayer to God is not a magical 'get out of jail' card, or a cosmic vending machine (with prayers and sacrificial 'trades' as coin). God is not the great Grandpa in the sky who throws 'goodies' to all the followers without regard, etc.

And a good part of prayer is finding out what I wanted isn't really going to work. Or that what I thought was proper was not exactly wrong but missed the point.

The late Will Rodgers once said, "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." I really think this should be the opening statement in any study of Christian prayer.

Thank you so much for taking this thread and your reply seriously. It seems that most would rather use this thread as a place to insult atheists or ridicule my understanding of prayer. I was afraid no one would actually share an experience like the one i requested. It certainly didn't have to relate to marriage...i just used that example because I felt it was likely that many christians had that type of experience.

You say that you thought god sent you your third wife. You said you prayed on it and it felt "right.". Did you actually get a sign from god when you prayed? Or is the feeling that you were doing the right thing/making the right choice what you consider to be an answer to your prayer?

You followed up that statement with another saying that you were not "doing it all properly. What exactly did you mean by that? Did you mean you weren't praying properly? That you didn't properly await an answer to your prayers? Did you misunderstand the answer god gave you?

I hope these questions aren't too personal, I'm certainly not trying to judge your answers. I'm interested in the differences between when you "get it right" and when you "get it wrong."

 

[Alithis]

This question goes out to all the christian posters here on CF. It's regarding that story you don't tell....

Allow me to frame this question with an example so you know what I'm talking about. As christians, a great many of you have stories about that time when you turned to god for advice/help/need. I know this because I've read a decent number of your testimonials. It might look like this....

"I prayed to god every night for him to send me that good christian man who would love me the way I love Jesus!"

Or...

"After she betrayed my trust, I didn't know if i could still be her friend...so I prayed to god every night for a sign that I could let my guard down and be her friend once again."

I'm sure you get the idea...it could be any number of things that you prayed about. The story usually continues with some small passage of time, then god gives you the sign, or he heals your sick father, or he sends you the perfect wife/husband, etc. The story usually ends happily ever after with a little affirmation that god is good and if you just hang in there, have faith in him, pray, and do whatever else it is good christians do....your prayers will be answered.

On the flip side of that coin you also see the stories that are a lot more dire...where the need is greater...and god seems suddenly absent when it comes to prayer. Those stories look like this...

"Everything was fine at first, but after the first couple of years he started beating me for almost any reason. He's been coming home late smelling like strippers and he never wants to have sex anymore. I've prayed to god every night for the past three years to change my husband and make him see the glory of god, but my prayers remain unanswered."

The responses to these types of threads are usually quite kind and understanding. Often, the responses come with genuinely good advice...sometime they don't. Sometimes a reply is thrown in there that amounts to "god put you in this situation for a reason, learn from it/deal with it/accept it". To me, it appears that person is trying to reconcile to themselves why such a bad thing would happen to a good christian. Anyway, the story that I never see christians tell is the one that would appear between the two stories...

1st story: I was so sick of being lonely and crying myself to sleep every night. I prayed to god constantly to send me that good christian husband I could call my own...and then one day god sent him to me.

2nd story (the one you guys never share) We had dated for awhile and everything was perfect! He's got all the qualities a good christian husband should have! Still, I had some reservations about marrying him after only knowing him for three weeks...so I prayed to god to send me a sign to show me if he's the one for me. Finally, after two weeks of praying, I had a dream where...(or) god spoke to me in a quiet still voice...(or) after praying I was overcome with emotion that felt like love! I had my sign and I knew he was the one! God is so great.....

3rd story: He beats me, he cheats on me, he'd ruined my car, he made me give up all my friends, he ignores our kid....

It's that second story I'm interested in, the one where you (the christian) asked god for something whether it was a sign or a person or whatever...and then you got it. You received whatever confirmation you needed from god and you were so sure you were making the right decision. Then later you found out it was the wrong decision entirely... you made a big big mistake and now (or then) you were stuck with the consequences.

What happened there? How do you explain that to yourself? Do you choose to forget about it? Ignore it? Do you decide that you misread the sign? Do you tell yourself it's all part of some plan to teach you something or maybe put you in a place where someone needed you?

Do you just deny it happened? How do you reconcile this mistake? I'm guessing you don't blame god...but do you blame yourself even though you put it in god's hands and placed your faith in him?

I'd like to read your stories of where it went wrong for you...what the sign was that you were mistaken about....and how you reconcile it. I know that's a tall order. Let's see who's brave enough to answer.

what do you want the answer to be...just wondered.

it sounds like you have listened to some rather odd testimonies .
i think the first reply covered it in commenting on the immature nature of
some christians .
of course are they christians or are they christians who say such things?

there is such an astounding difference between the two...
For most cases ,to get the more comprehensive story you would need to come back when the story teller is 40 and get the revised version when they are 80 ..only then ,imo,could you even begin to get a somewhat more comprehensive testimony of the lifes events as led by God .
the biblical character Job being a good example of when everything goes extremely wrong..
it could be said ,Jobs response was the correct christian response and his wife's response was the epitome of one who claims faith with the mind for its many pleasurable attributes but has never grasped faith in the heart to know that love has no desire to preserve itself but lays itself down (in death if need be)to become a bridge by which all others may pass over to greater benefit.

 

[juvenissun]

No.

I really don't know what you're saying here.

That is an efficient way to stop my argument.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That is an efficient way to stop my argument.

Or you could just explain what your argument is...

 

[Ana the Ist]

what do you want the answer to be...just wondered.

it sounds like you have listened to some rather odd testimonies .
i think the first reply covered it in commenting on the immature nature of
some christians .
of course are they christians or are they christians who say such things?

there is such an astounding difference between the two...
For most cases ,to get the more comprehensive story you would need to come back when the story teller is 40 and get the revised version when they are 80 ..only then ,imo,could you even begin to get a somewhat more comprehensive testimony of the lifes events as led by God .
the biblical character Job being a good example of when everything goes extremely wrong..
it could be said ,Jobs response was the correct christian response and his wife's response was the epitome of one who claims faith with the mind for its many pleasurable attributes but has never grasped faith in the heart to know that love has no desire to preserve itself but lays itself down (in death if need be)to become a bridge by which all others may pass over to greater benefit.

All I got from the first reply was that christians shouldn't ask god for things. This seems to be the standard response from christians when they're asked why prayer doesn't work. I've gotten many responses in the past that "god isn't a vending machine" or "pray instead that god's will be done"...the latter which makes no sense to me and the former seems extremely dishonest.

You can't just ask god for whatever and expect him to give it to you...I get that. The notion that christians shouldn't ask god for things though seems to only pop up when unbelievers ask about god and prayer. I could literally link to over three dozen threads on this forum alone where the OP is asking, "Please pray for my sick mother", "...for my husband to find a new job", "...for my friend who's in trouble." Etc etc. What are the responses from the christians? "I'm praying for you", "praying for your husband"....Etc etc. No one ever tells them, "Hey, god isn't a vending machine you know...you shouldn't pray for him to heal your sick mother, you should pray that his will be done.". Christians ask god for stuff all the time.

Also, when is god's will not going to be done? Is there anything that could stop his will from being done? That's a silly notion, right? So why would anyone need to pray that god's will be done?

In regards to your question, I'm interested in stories where someone prayed for something, believed they got that thing or an answer from god, and it turned out wrong. I see the stories where someone prays for something, thinks they got an answer from god, then their prayers come true all the time. I'm inclined to think that the opposite happens as well...and I'd like to hear about it and why that person thinks it went wrong. That's all. So far only one poster has given such an example, but he seemed less inclined to explain what he thinks went wrong with it.

 

[Alithis]

All I got from the first reply was that christians shouldn't ask god for things. This seems to be the standard response from christians when they're asked why prayer doesn't work. I've gotten many responses in the past that "god isn't a vending machine" or "pray instead that god's will be done"...the latter which makes no sense to me and the former seems extremely dishonest.

You can't just ask god for whatever and expect him to give it to you...I get that. The notion that christians shouldn't ask god for things though seems to only pop up when unbelievers ask about god and prayer. I could literally link to over three dozen threads on this forum alone where the OP is asking, "Please pray for my sick mother", "...for my husband to find a new job", "...for my friend who's in trouble." Etc etc. What are the responses from the christians? "I'm praying for you", "praying for your husband"....Etc etc. No one ever tells them, "Hey, god isn't a vending machine you know...you shouldn't pray for him to heal your sick mother, you should pray that his will be done.". Christians ask god for stuff all the time.

Also, when is god's will not going to be done? Is there anything that could stop his will from being done? That's a silly notion, right? So why would anyone need to pray that god's will be done?

In regards to your question, I'm interested in stories where someone prayed for something, believed they got that thing or an answer from god, and it turned out wrong. I see the stories where someone prays for something, thinks they got an answer from god, then their prayers come true all the time. I'm inclined to think that the opposite happens as well...and I'd like to hear about it and why that person thinks it went wrong. That's all. So far only one poster has given such an example, but he seemed less inclined to explain what he thinks went wrong with it.

(re in bold )
aah ok .. but then ,again there is the problem I made mention of already .. to be able to answer such a question you may need to ask the person again in many years from now because relationship with God is learned ..
so you going to get a very different reply from a person who believes they asked god for something and got it ..or thought they got and were in error ... when you ask them just after the fact --as opposed to the answer you will get if you ask them in 40 or 50 years time .

I'm honestly trying to think of such a thing to share with you in regard to my own life in God ..but the years have gone by and such things have blurred and faded in importance much like 4 yr olds many requests to his parents are later perceived as irrelevant as he grows and learns to ask the right questions I guess .
I have very many occasions of asking (praying) and have fully received what I prayed for but have not perceived the answer at the time .but how do I explain those experiences to you ? you may not comprehend the foundations ,how will you comprehend the building ?

I think again the problem is , the things your referring too of prayers being perceived as answered then later being seen as disasters.. are based on the wrong things asked, in the wrong attitude or for the wrong reason perhaps .. and that results in a journey to teach the individual .God uses that error to work in a person an even greater faith and trust and surrendering to him for the greater and eternal good .-I mean its a simple as "learning from mistakes " .

for me personally I asked things ,not really comprehending what I was asking for .. and when God gave me what I asked for the initial result was a destruction of my entire self built house of life ...but the latter result was the rebuilding of it by God, instead of my effort, with its foundations renewed and set in stone rather then sand (it would take pages of posting to explain how that transpired )

the error the young believer makes is that God is there to serve every whim ...but he actually desires to teach us to serve one another .
so we ask things based on what WE want the answer to be ..when the first correct question is .. Lord what is your will in this situation? if more would ask from that foundation ,more would know what to pray for that has the most beneficial outcome to all.

it is why I asked you in regard to your OP .. what do YOU want the answer to be ?
because often we make the error that the only answer we allow ourselves to see ,is the answer WE WANT. not what the answer is .

 

[Ana the Ist]

(re in bold )
aah ok .. but then ,again there is the problem I made mention of already .. to be able to answer such a question you may need to ask the person again in many years from now because relationship with God is learned ..
so you going to get a very different reply from a person who believes they asked god for something and got it ..or thought they got and were in error ... when you ask them just after the fact --as opposed to the answer you will get if you ask them in 40 or 50 years time .

I'm honestly trying to think of such a thing to share with you in regard to my own life in God ..but the years have gone by and such things have blurred and faded in importance much like 4 yr olds many requests to his parents are later perceived as irrelevant as he grows and learns to ask the right questions I guess .
I have very many occasions of asking (praying) and have fully received what I prayed for but have not perceived the answer at the time .but how do I explain those experiences to you ? you may not comprehend the foundations ,how will you comprehend the building ?

I think again the problem is , the things your referring too of prayers being perceived as answered then later being seen as disasters.. are based on the wrong things asked, in the wrong attitude or for the wrong reason perhaps .. and that results in a journey to teach the individual .God uses that error to work in a person an even greater faith and trust and surrendering to him for the greater and eternal good .-I mean its a simple as "learning from mistakes " .

for me personally I asked things ,not really comprehending what I was asking for .. and when God gave me what I asked for the initial result was a destruction of my entire self built house of life ...but the latter result was the rebuilding of it by God, instead of my effort, with its foundations renewed and set in stone rather then sand (it would take pages of posting to explain how that transpired )

the error the young believer makes is that God is there to serve every whim ...but he actually desires to teach us to serve one another .
so we ask things based on what WE want the answer to be ..when the first correct question is .. Lord what is your will in this situation? if more would ask from that foundation ,more would know what to pray for that has the most beneficial outcome to all.

it is why I asked you in regard to your OP .. what do YOU want the answer to be ?
because often we make the error that the only answer we allow ourselves to see ,is the answer WE WANT. not what the answer is .

Sooo...you weren't asking me what kind of replies I was looking for in this thread? You were asking something else?

 

[Alithis]

Sooo...you weren't asking me what kind of replies I was looking for in this thread? You were asking something else?

well .....,seems so lol .
or perhaps I was telling you something else
and asking you to question your motive for questioning at the same time .
..and that done .. i'll leave you to it

 

[Chesterton]

Also, when is god's will not going to be done? Is there anything that could stop his will from being done? That's a silly notion, right? So why would anyone need to pray that god's will be done?

His will might not be done by other wills which are free not to do it.

In regards to your question, I'm interested in stories where someone prayed for something, believed they got that thing or an answer from god, and it turned out wrong.

We may not know whether it was right or wrong for another 10,000 years, or maybe never, so I'm not sure how we're expected to determine in this life that something turned out "wrong".

 

[Ana the Ist]

well .....,seems so lol .
or perhaps I was telling you something else
and asking you to question your motive for questioning at the same time .
..and that done .. i'll leave you to it

Lol you could've just asked me what my motive was...I already know it...

I was curious how someone resolves that situation and the implications of how they resolve it. Unfortunately I don't have enough responses to draw that conclusion yet.

 

[Ana the Ist]

His will might not be done by other wills which are free not to do it.



We may not know whether it was right or wrong for another 10,000 years, or maybe never, so I'm not sure how we're expected to determine in this life that something turned out "wrong".

Does it really take you that long to realize you made a poor choice?

 

[Chesterton]

Does it really take you that long to realize you made a poor choice?

It's possible.

 

[Gottservant]

A wicked an adulterous generation seeks after a sign. (Jesus)

Those people who believe they would see a sign, are no more sinners than the rest, but the flipside is of course, at least they tried.

Jesus will condemn those who sought a sign but did nothing about it, more roundly when He returns.

 

[Hetta]

You simply have to have commonsense about prayer. Prayer is not about putting in prayer and God the dispensing machine sending something down the slot. That's what I also used to believe, but I think it is incorrect. Prayer is obedience. Prayer is to be made because it is part of our conversation with God, and because we are told to pray. I honestly do not expect things to "happen" because I pray although I still sometimes have done it. I remember when my maman was ill with cancer and I thought I could 'pray it away'. It was such a struggle. When she died, I was angry with God for years, and I may not have ever gotten over that childish anger - the anger of a child who lost her beloved mother - but I know in my logical mind that it wasn't God's responsibility to 'save' her and that no amount of prayer on my part was ever going to change the terminal nature of her cancer. So my prayers changed. They became an angry/tearful wail that went on and on and on ... turned into depression ... and it took me five years to get over that. In the meantime, life goes on all around and I don't hesitate to pray for those who ask, but I don't expect to "receive" anything, I just like to have that conversation. What goes right in my world - that is either as a result of hard work on the part of the person for whom it goes right. When it goes wrong, well, that's just life.

 

[Hetta]

Oh. Did you just want this one answered?

2nd story (the one you guys never share) We had dated for awhile and everything was perfect! He's got all the qualities a good christian husband should have! Still, I had some reservations about marrying him after only knowing him for three weeks...so I prayed to god to send me a sign to show me if he's the one for me. Finally, after two weeks of praying, I had a dream where...(or) god spoke to me in a quiet still voice...(or) after praying I was overcome with emotion that felt like love! I had my sign and I knew he was the one! God is so great.....

"Everything was fine at first, but after the first couple of years he started beating me for almost any reason. He's been coming home late smelling like strippers and he never wants to have sex anymore. I've prayed to god every night for the past three years to change my husband and make him see the glory of god, but my prayers remain unanswered."

That's easy to answer. God doesn't force people to change. If that erring husband isn't interested in giving up his strippers, then he won't. There are better prayers than "change this person".

Also, people give too much of this stuff over to God, think they have heard an answer, and don't even look into that potential husband/wife. Okay, God didn't take away your brain. He expects you to use it. So you look into your potential mate and think long and hard before you commit. Sure, people can still change. The mate can become a jerk later, but that's when you give them an ultimatum (me or the strippers) and if they chose the latter, you walk away.

And Ana, that scenario has been posted - do some searches on the married couples forum. There have been many instances I have seen where the perfect/God sent husband/wife turned out to be sent by the other guy.

 

[Albion]

This question goes out to all the christian posters here on CF. It's regarding that story you don't tell....

It's that second story I'm interested in, the one where you (the christian) asked god for something whether it was a sign or a person or whatever...and then you got it. You received whatever confirmation you needed from god and you were so sure you were making the right decision. Then later you found out it was the wrong decision entirely... you made a big big mistake and now (or then) you were stuck with the consequences.

What happened there? How do you explain that to yourself? Do you choose to forget about it? Ignore it? Do you decide that you misread the sign? Do you tell yourself it's all part of some plan to teach you something or maybe put you in a place where someone needed you?

Do you just deny it happened? How do you reconcile this mistake? I'm guessing you don't blame god...but do you blame yourself even though you put it in god's hands and placed your faith in him?

There's nothing mysterious or embarrassing here. Praying to God is a Christian practice (and one in just about every other religion, too). We should know that we cannot force God's hand, and that we may receive what he ask for...or not.

But "people are people," as they say. As a result you'll find people who impose their own thinking upon God's, imagine they've heard from him audibly, or much else that's all too human. And mistaken.

 

[Hetta]

But "people are people," as they say. As a result you'll find people who impose their own thinking upon God's, imagine they've heard from him audibly, or much else that's all too human. And mistaken.

So who does actually hear from God? This kind of thing drives me crazy. So anyone with a happy marriage did hear from God, and anyone who isn't, didn't hear from God. How about if nobody actually heard from God, but some were lucky and some were not?

 

[TheBear]

What about all those mothers clinging to their children while a tsunami washed through their village, who were praying to God to save them, only to have their children ripped from their arms and killed by the torrent? What about all those Christians in West Virginia, who held prayer vigils for the trapped coal miners, who after hearing that they all survived, praised the lord, only to find out later that all but one died?

 

[Albion]

So who does actually hear from God? This kind of thing drives me crazy. So anyone with a happy marriage did hear from God, and anyone who isn't, didn't hear from God. How about if nobody actually heard from God, but some were lucky and some were not?

To answer you, I'd say, first, that I don't believe that 99% of those who insist that they've either heard God's voice answering them, or held literal conversations with God, are correct about that. We have God's word in Scripture and we can experience God's answer to prayer in how events develop. Sometimes God grants our requests and sometimes he does not. I don't find this especially perplexing or hard to accept.