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Because Judaizers were telling them differently.Why would Paul need to speak to the gentile church about the inability of the works of the law to justify them. As gentiles they already don’t believe in the works of the law.
OSAS operates on the understanding that you are speaking about true believers. People can claim to be believers right up to the moment they stop believing, but that act of turning away demonstrates that they were never true believers. Again, that is why the P in TULIP is such an important part of the puzzle.In the discussion I was having the argument was if someone is saved they stay saved even if later on they become an atheist. That is what I was addressing. I wasn't even arguing for or against it. I was just arguing that a couple of standard proof texts for OSAS don't really support the doctrine in my opinion.
1 John covers what having eternal life consists of. Which is why the summation is:Yes, as long as we understand what faith entails, what it means to be a believer, to be “born of God”, to be “children of God”, IOW: 1 John 3:9-10. Also James 2:22-24.
So Paul and the other NT writers chose to make something that was a 1st century problem into one of the major focuses on the gospel? What about other Christian churches that have popped up over time where works are the basis, or part of the basis, for their salvation theology?Because Judaizers were telling them differently.
The Baptist I was debating with doesn't see it that way, and that's whom I was addressing.OSAS operates on the understanding that you are speaking about true believers. People can claim to be believers right up to the moment they stop believing, but that act of turning away demonstrates that they were never true believers. Again, that is why the P in TULIP is such an important part of the puzzle.
Paul and the other NT writers were guided by the Holy Spirit, who knew it was a problem that wasn't going to be limited to the 1st century. While Paul was of course writing letters to the 1st century churches, what he wrote is timeless. It's as applicable now as it was then.So Paul and the other NT writers chose to make something that was a 1st century problem into one of the major focuses on the gospel? What about other Christian churches that have popped up over time where works are the basis, or part of the basis, for their salvation theology?
So, to respond as you did, I was speaking to another member who seems to have a different outlook. I agree with you here.Paul and the other NT writers were guided by the Holy Spirit, who knew it was a problem that wasn't going to be limited to the 1st century. While Paul was of course writing letters to the 1st century churches, what he wrote is timeless. It's as applicable now as it was then.
True enough. And other places as well in Scripture keep us understanding that there's no salvation without good fruit.1 John covers what having eternal life consists of. Which is why the summation is:
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life". 1 John 5:13.
In other words if you meet the requirements written of in 1 John, John says that you can know that you have eternal life.
Whoever has a disagreement with that, will have to take it up with St. John.
In my opinion bearing good fruit is what salvation is all about.True enough. And other places as well in Scripture keep us understanding that there's no salvation without good fruit.
It's okay to respond to a question to another member. But you were basically asking me why I was saying certain things, so I had to explain why.So, to respond as you did, I was speaking to another member who seems to have a different outlook. I agree with you here.
I agree, yes, in large part. And we can also fail to remain in Him in which case we will fail to produce good fruit and compromise our saved status.True enough. And other places as well in Scripture keep us understanding that there's no salvation without good fruit.
In my opinion saved means a lot more than just going to heaven after you die. Salvation is the good fruits of our lives here and now. The Old Testament practically says nothing about us going to heaven or hell, but it says a lot about salvation. Especially in the Psalms. Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets were totally committed to God without any real mention of afterlife rewards. In my opinion we should love the Lord with all of our heart, soul and mind even if there wasn't an afterlife.I agree, yes, in large part. And we can also fail to remain in Him in which case we will fail to produce good fruit and compromise our saved status.
All right, but I'm not sure what salvation even means apart from eternal life. You are right, the concept was vague in the Old testament, and blessings for living according to God's will had more to do with peace and prosperity in the present life.In my opinion saved means a lot more than just going to heaven after you die. Salvation is the good fruits of our lives here and now. The Old Testament practically says nothing about us going to heaven or hell, but it says a lot about salvation. Especially in the Psalms. Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets were totally committed to God without any real mention of afterlife rewards. In my opinion we should love the Lord with all of our heart, soul and mind even if there wasn't an afterlife.
The apostate's faith was not true faith. . .of the Holy Spirit.Do they? I've always understood apostate to mean someone who's renounced their faith as opposed to professing it.
They're usually referred to as false disciples rather than apostates. An apostate by definition wouldn't be doing anything in the name of Jesus.The apostate's faith was not true faith. . .of the Holy Spirit.
It was counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).
Relevance to "enlightening, tasting"?Yes, the NT speaks of salvation in all three tenses: was saved, being saved, will be saved, and also something to be worked out. In any case eternal life is a gift: Adam and Eve were intended to live forever, in fact, and earned their death by their sin. Any gift can be rejected, thrown back out.
Seems Paul disagrees with you (Ro 8:16).The point is that He alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Then you'll know, as well, if you've been right or wrong.
Apostates, by definition, once believed. . .They're usually referred to as false disciples rather than apostates. An apostate by definition wouldn't be doing anything in the name of Jesus.
"Enlightening and tasting", of the heavenly gift, are revelation: gifts of the Spirit, as is escaping the pollution oif the world through the knowlegde of Christ. The person is informed and moved by God and yet not compelled to remain there, in Him. Similarly "true faith" can still be denied as the will of man makes his choice between conflicting values:Relevance to "enlightening, tasting"?
Here's an example:The apostate's faith was not true faith. . .of the Holy Spirit.
It was counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).
I know apostates who thoroughly believed and bore fruit. One actually repented and came back.Apostates, by definition, once believed. . .
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