Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

fhansen · Jun 28, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Anything that we need to do to be saved is a work and Paul was clear that it is all of God (lest any man should boast).

Paul's point is that the law cannot justify you: the mere external observance of a moral code does not make one moral, or holy. Only God can do that; only God can justify the ungodly, only God can 'put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts'. That's why the primary difference between the old and new covenants is access to the Holy of Holies, to be grafted into the Vine, to realize communion with God, as man is mean to be in order to have life, wholeness, moral integrity, justice, et al.

Clare73 · Jun 28, 2025

fhansen said:
And that only means that anyone can think they did-but didn't.

Which doesn't mean all are not.

fhansen · Jun 28, 2025

A New Dawn said:
True, that is why the Perseverance of the Saints is an important point in the Doctrines of Grace.

Just not a doctrine of Christianity. That's why we're instructed, warned, and admonished to persevere, to be vigilant, to strive, to make effort, rather than putting the cart ahead of the horse.

fhansen · Jun 28, 2025

Clare73 said:
Which doesn't mean all are not.

And He'll comfirm or deny our presumptions-or considered opinions-in the next life.

Hentenza · Jun 28, 2025

fhansen said:
Just not a doctrine of Christianity. That's why we're instructed, warned, and admonished to persevere, to be vigilant, to strive, to make effort, rather than putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Who are His sheep that the Father gave to Him and that no one can snatch from His hand?

“Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.””
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭25‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My v | New American Standard Bible - NAS

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My v

bible.com

Clare73 · Jun 28, 2025

fhansen said:
And He'll comfirm or deny our presumptions-or considered opinions-in the next life.

Did someone say he would not?

fhansen · Jun 28, 2025

Hentenza said:
Who are His sheep that the Father gave to Him and that no one can snatch from His hand?

Good question. And historical teachings have held that one can have a strong, healthy level of assurance. bolstered by evidence of good fruit in our lives. But absolute assurance is considerd to be rash and even border-line prideful.

fhansen · Jun 28, 2025

Clare73 said:
Did someone say he would not?

The point is that He alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Then you'll know, as well, if you've been right or wrong.

A New Dawn · Jun 28, 2025

fhansen said:
Paul's point is that the law cannot justify you: the mere external observance of a moral code does not make one moral, or holy. Only God can do that; only God can justify the ungodly, only God can 'put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts'. That's why the primary difference between the old and new covenants is access to the Holy of Holies, to be grafted into the Vine, to realize communion with God, as man is mean to be in order to have life, wholeness, moral integrity, justice, et al.

Paul was talking to the church, not the Jews. Therefore he was speaking about any works we, as the church, need to do.

fhansen · Jun 28, 2025

Clare73 said:
Au contraire. . .

Eternal life of the new birth is just that. . .eternal.

Turning away from God is proof they never had eternal life int he first place, though they thought they did (Mt 7:22-23).

"Enlightening" and "tasting" are not the conviction and eating of the new birth.

Ok, nicely speculated about at least, I guess.

ozso · Jun 28, 2025

Hentenza said:
Who are His sheep that the Father gave to Him and that no one can snatch from His hand?

“Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.””
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭25‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My v | New American Standard Bible - NAS

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My v

bible.com

Key aspects to that are they listen to His voice and they follow Him. Which hardly applies to an apostate. Jesus says no one will snatch them from His hand, but willfully leaving Christ isn't the same as being snatched away.

ozso · Jun 28, 2025

fhansen said:
Good question. And historical teachings have held that one can have a strong, healthy level of assurance. bolstered by evidence of good fruit in our lives. But absolute assurance is considerd to be rash and even border-line prideful.

What about absolute trust? Rather than "I know that I'm saved because I..." it's "I know that I'm saved because I have absolute trust in God to save me". Would the latter case of total dependence on God to save and total trust in Him to save, come out as rash or in any way prideful? Is the stance of not being absolutely certain an act of not absolutely trusting God to save you?

A New Dawn · Jun 29, 2025

ozso said:
Key aspects to that are they listen to His voice and they follow Him. Which hardly applies to an apostate. Jesus says no one will snatch them from His hand, but willfully leaving Christ isn't the same as being snatched away.

You seem to want to have it both ways. If they don’t hear His voice or follow Him, they were never His, anyway. AND, not all who say “Lord, Lord” will enter into the kingdom. Jesus will say “Depart from me, I never knew you.”

Hentenza · Jun 29, 2025

ozso said:
Key aspects to that are they listen to His voice and they follow Him. Which hardly applies to an apostate. Jesus says no one will snatch them from His hand, but willfully leaving Christ isn't the same as being snatched away.

My brother you are adding a dimension to the verses that is not there. The sheep are indeed believers but they will never “leave” since He has given them eternal life and they will never perish. John explains this concept further in John 10.

““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.””
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭11‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 10:11-18 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep a | New American Standard Bible - NAS

“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep a

bible.com

The one who snatches the sheep is the wolf but He will never allow the wolf to snatch His sheep. He will lay down His life for them. The present apostates might be part of the ones that are not yet in His flock but will at some time listen to His voice. His redemptive work is not yet finished.

ozso · Jun 29, 2025

Hentenza said:
My brother you are adding a dimension to the verses that is not there. The sheep are indeed believers but they will never “leave” since He has given them eternal life and they will never perish. John explains this concept further in John 10.

““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.””
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭11‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 10:11-18 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep a | New American Standard Bible - NAS

“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep a

bible.com

The one who snatches the sheep is the wolf but He will never allow the wolf to snatch His sheep. He will lay down His life for them. The present apostates might be part of the ones that are not yet in His flock but will at some time listen to His voice. His redemptive work is not yet finished.

Yes the wolf snatches. Takes the sheep against their will to stay with the shepherd. And Jesus will not allow his sheep to be snatched by the wolf.

But the apostate abandons the shepherd. It runs away from the shepherd.

The other sheep that are not yet of his flock are the Gentiles.

Hentenza · Jun 29, 2025

ozso said:
Yes the wolf snatches. Takes the sheep against their will to stay with the shepherd. And Jesus will not allow his sheep to be snatched by the wolf.

But the apostate abandons the shepherd. It runs away from the shepherd.

The other sheep that are not yet of his flock are the Gentiles.

The apostate was never in the herd. The parable of the sower explains this concept.

““Listen then to the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. The one sown with seed on the rocky places, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away. And the one sown with seed among the thorns, this is the one who hears the word, and the anxiety of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. But the one sown with seed on the good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭18‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:19-23 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. The one sown | New American Standard Bible -

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. The one sown

bible.com

ozso · Jun 29, 2025

A New Dawn said:
You seem to want to have it both ways. If they don’t hear His voice or follow Him, they were never His, anyway.

I'm saying that passage isn't about apostates. Those who don't listen to his voice and follow him ever aren't Christians period.

A New Dawn said:
AND, not all who say “Lord, Lord” will enter into the kingdom. Jesus will say “Depart from me, I never knew you.”

I'd say that passage is about false prophets. False Christians. The charlatan TV "preacher" who's only trying to get money from people.

Clare73 · Jun 29, 2025

fhansen said:
The point is that He alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Then you'll know, as well, if you've been right or wrong.

So one can be right when he knows.

fhansen said:
And He'll comfirm or deny our presumptions-or considered opinions-in the next life.

So the confirmed ones were correct, and it is they to whom the Scripture refers (post #102).

Clare73 · Jun 29, 2025

fhansen said:
Ok, nicely speculated about at least, I guess.

Both the NT and the dictionary are pretty clear on their meanings

A New Dawn · Jun 29, 2025

ozso said:
I'm saying that passage isn't about apostates. Those who don't listen to his voice and follow him ever aren't Christians period.

I'd say that passage is about false prophets. False Christians. The charlatan TV "preacher" who's only trying to get money from people.

I’d disagree. While earlier in the chapter Jesus WAS speaking about false prophets and false teachers, this is a separate paragraph, so can carry a different meaning. I believe he is speaking about anyone who speaks of Jesus superficially, whose words and lives don’t match up together. I believe that would cover someone who was not a true believer (or apostate).

Just so I understand, why are you arguing that someone who doesn’t express the hallmarks of a true believer would (or should) be considered part of the flock? I would like to understand where you come to that understanding rather than to try to argue against something that seems, at least to me, so patently wrong.

Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

Oldbie

Blood-bought

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Oldbie

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Oldbie

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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