Christian and Messianic Doctrines

[Judson]

Hi,

I was wondering what are the differences between Messianic and classical Christian doctrines?

What do you believe about the Trinity, the deity of Christ (the ecumenical councils)?

On what areas do Messianics and Christians disagree?


thanks.

 

[SarahJoy]

Unfortunately all Messianic do not agree with each other. Some believe in the trinity and some don't. Some believe that we should keep all of the Torah while some believe that we only need to keep some. And on and on it goes.

I was born into a conservative Christian home. Early in my parents married life God moved them so that they became so spiritually hungry. They went from church to church trying till fill themselves, but it only made them more hungry. Finally they sat down and read the Bible for themselves. And that is how they came to the faith. No teacher, nor preacher, no one, but the Spirit of God. Everyone said that we were wacked out, over the stop, horribly strict. We thought we were alone. It wasn't until about 2002 that we got internet and found that there were 1000's of other wacked out, over the top, horribly strict people just like us. And it sure was a comfort.

The reason I said all that was to try and encourage you to let the Spirit of God shew you these things that you question on. Do not rely on the understanding and wisdom of men, because be assured that you will not receive the truth. Yes it is always good and easy to have teachers to teach and others to help show you the way, but just make sure it is God, not man that convicts you.

Not exactly sure what you mean by classical christian doctrines, but as for the Trinity, no we (my family and I) do not believe in it. The passage in I John 5:7 has been added in by translators. I did a search on about 27 bibles and only about 5 had that passage. There are countless texts in the New Testament were Yeshua is talking about Him and the Father. Not once does He say the Holy Spirit is one with Him and the Father. Let us have a look at these two scriptures

Ex.23:20 Behold, I send a Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Matt. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The two are undeniably similar. All the passages on the Angels and all the passages in the Holy Spirit are the same. They are messengers, comforters, guiders, ministers, etc.

This is the revelation my Dad received years ago. The Holy Spirit and the Angels are one and the same. If not then what is the purpose of Angels? But lets take it back to the name Holy Spirit. Are the Angels holy? Ofcourse. Are they spirit? Of course. Therefore they are a Holy Spirit!

Do I believe in the deity of Yeshua? Absolutely. The Bible clearly teaches it so I undeniably believe it. Though I also believe that the Father and the Son are two separate entities at the same time one. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. The same as a married couple, though they are two, yet they are one. Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

This could be a very long post of all the points that Messianism and Christianity disagree on so what are the major point you are question?

 

[simchat_torah]

Though MJ'ism is diverse, as Sarah accurately points out, there is a general stream within the movement that is considered "mainstream". There are three major organizations that comprise the majority of messianic congregations globally. The remaining groups are fractioned and splintered incredibly and the beliefs range incredibly from one fringe group to the next.

Though these three organizations combined represent the majority of Messianic congregations they do not represent the movement unconditionally (like the papal system represents catholocism). The congregations, in no particular order, are:
IAMCS IAMCS | International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues
UMJC http://www.umjc.org/
MJAA MJAA: Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

These three organizations are a good reference point to begin your questions concerning the movement.

One thing I should point out is that while the diversity between these three groups is minimal, the diversity among congregations that don't belong to one of these big three ranges incredibly.

-Yafet

 

[Judson]

Thanks for your reply.

Let's concentrate on this topic of the trinity. There's lots that can be debated on this if you are not a believer in it, indeed it took centuries for the church to develop and even now, many are not convinced.

At some point we can talk about the different proof texts, but let's consider for now that while each bible believer has the right to deny the Trinity in their own interpretation of the text, it is established as Christian and orthodox dogma, firmly believed in all branches of Christianity - even among groups in opposition, like the RC, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Protestants. According to Christian orthodoxy, unitarians and oneness Pentecostals are deemed "heretic." Those who consider themselves "orthodox" would view unitarians in almost the same way as mormons and JWs.

I'm not sure, Do Messianics consider themselves "Christian"? To what extent do Messianics seek (or do not seek) to be in line with Christian orthodox teaching?

Again, this is not to denounce your view, or any others. As a protestant, I'm aware that I am considered a heretic by the Roman church, so in some sense we are all heretical. Perhaps these distinctions are not helpful at all, but the labels do seek to establish orthodox from heterodox.

thoughts?

 

[SarahJoy]

We should not seek to align or dis align ourselves with anyone whether it be to Christianity or Judaism. Rather we should be concentrated on aligning ourselves with the Messianic-Israelite-Hebrew faith; the faith of Abraham. We must strive to seek and follow God and do not seek after the titles and the acceptance of men.

 

[TanteBelle]

Thanks for your reply.

Let's concentrate on this topic of the trinity. There's lots that can be debated on this if you are not a believer in it, indeed it took centuries for the church to develop and even now, many are not convinced.

At some point we can talk about the different proof texts, but let's consider for now that while each bible believer has the right to deny the Trinity in their own interpretation of the text, it is established as Christian and orthodox dogma, firmly believed in all branches of Christianity - even among groups in opposition, like the RC, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Protestants. According to Christian orthodoxy, unitarians and oneness Pentecostals are deemed "heretic." Those who consider themselves "orthodox" would view unitarians in almost the same way as mormons and JWs.

I'm not sure, Do Messianics consider themselves "Christian"? To what extent do Messianics seek (or do not seek) to be in line with Christian orthodox teaching?

Again, this is not to denounce your view, or any others. As a protestant, I'm aware that I am considered a heretic by the Roman church, so in some sense we are all heretical. Perhaps these distinctions are not helpful at all, but the labels do seek to establish orthodox from heterodox.

thoughts?

Personally, I do not call myself Messianic by denomination because as SarahJoy said, there are sooo many different ends of the spectrum with that. Some are Christians with a bit of Israeli flavour while others are Jews with a bit of Messiah flavour. I call myself Messianic because I believe that my Messiah was Jewish by birth and Hebrew by faith. He had a Israeli name. I believe that we have a Hebrew faith. So, how can I get in touch with all the Hebraic roots of my faith and then call myself something that is Greek-o-Roman? Something which the faith, the scriptures, the prophets, apostles, and the Messiah Himself were not. I'd be undoing myself right there. This is not to say that I consider myself more 'in touch spiritually' or anything like that; God forbid! Faith is a journey and we are all on different levels of that walk.

 

[Tishri1]

we neeed to be as close to our Christian brothers as we can be, doesnt mean we have to hold similar worship services or believe exactly as they do , but we are one in Messiah and need to be there for them

and we need to be a light to the Jew as well who doesnt know Yeshua

 

[David Ben Yosef]

we neeed to be as close to our Christian brothers as we can be, doesnt mean we have to hold similar worship services or believe exactly as they do , but we are one in Messiah and need to be there for them

I love you to death, Tishy! How long have we known each other now, like 10 years or something? We don't agree on much theologically, but I simply adore you, and wanted you to know that has not, nor will it ever change. You always-always-always "preach" unity, and I couldn't agree with you more. Thank G-d the reign of Mashiach will end the division of mankind (not just religon). Olam Haba, and the Kingdom of G-d is something we should all yearn for, and you most certainly do! Just wanted to tell you that, Sis.

 

[WordsWillFailMe]

I'd like to hear more about scriptures supporting the Holy Spirit not being God. I've never heard this and now I'd like to learn more and try to decide what I agree with. What about verses saying the Holy Spirit will be "in" you? I know a demon can be in people but I've never contemplated if an angel of God could do that. Forgive my ignorance on this. Thanks.

 

[tm2cruz]

I'd like to hear more about scriptures supporting the Holy Spirit not being God. I've never heard this and now I'd like to learn more and try to decide what I agree with. What about verses saying the Holy Spirit will be "in" you? I know a demon can be in people but I've never contemplated if an angel of God could do that. Forgive my ignorance on this. Thanks.

For me, I believe the Holy Spirit is God. Just someone who doesn't believe that the Holy Spirit is God and compare it to the people who believe the Holy Spirit is God and judge it according to the Word of God.

Also ask the Lord about it, He is the truth. We can all make mistake, He never does.

 

[johnd]

There is a lack in unity (which the Messiah himself prayed about in John 17) for several reasons. As I mentioned in another thread started by Heber, there are many paradoxes created and endured by the Lord to save souls that sin (Ezekiel 18:4b) and to remain true to his own absolute word.

Salvation (setting aside the Calvinist arguments for now) is a choice and not an imposition. To be able to say yes to God one has to be able to say no to God (at least with regard to one's own {and very limited} convictions).

The Jewish leadership became infiltrated and corrupted (the weed seeds of which were sown into this wheat field (Matthew 13:24-29 and 37-43) as far back as Exodus 18 when Moses acting on what sounds right to a man (Proverbs 16:25) went with his pagan priest father-in-law's suggestion setting up a governing body in Israel without so much as consulting Lord).

That same body of judges is where the Sanhedrin traces its origin. The same Sanhedrin which faced the Holy One of Israel and convicted him to death and handed him over to the pagans to do their bidding. (Both Jew and Gentile crucified Yeshua / Jesus, btw, in case anyone wants to try to make this into anything it is not).

This same Sanhedrin forbade Jews to believe in Yeshua threatening to ouster them from the Jewish community for doing so... depriving the majority of Israel then and down through the two millennia since as their poisonous doctrines are passed down...

When the scripture record was complete at the end of the Apostolic age (at the deaths of the disciples and direct witnesses to the Messiah)... there was no Jewish leadership in Messianic Judaism ("the Way" the "Nazarene Sect" or as coined in Antioch "Christ-ianity"). In the absence Teshuvah scholars and Hebrew leaders, Gentile converts who did the best they could mentored the faith.

There are many things we could go into great lengths discussing what these Gentile Convert Leaders got wrong or allowed their pagan roots to influence their understanding of... but there is a lot they got spot on correctly.

The plurality of persons in the Godhead, the deity of Yeshua, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, to name a very important few.

Those who balk at these are misinformed / misinfluenced at best (often citing the doctrines of pagans or portions the poisonous doctrines of the Sanhedrin who outright rejected Yeshua and deprived his people of their Messiah all these generations).

But on the basis of scripture alone... God's side of the story... these truths are revealed.