Christian Ancestral Awareness

[Dutch Historian]

Do you know more about Jewish history than about your tribal ancestry?​

 

[PloverWing]

I know what's in the Old Testament pretty well, but I confess that I have much less knowledge of Jewish history after the destruction of the second Temple and the migration that followed.

My knowledge of my ancestral history is almost the opposite. At the time of the writing of the Old Testament, my ancestors were still illiterate, so written records of them from that time are sparse. As they acquired literacy, written records got better, and I have a fairly good idea of their history over the last 1500 years or so.

 

[FireDragon76]

1) What's wrong with learning about "Jewish history"?

2) What is "tribal ancestry"? Like most Americans, my ancestry is so diverse it really amounts to very little in particular. It's not an important part of who I am.

 

[Dutch Historian]

1) What's wrong with learning about "Jewish history"?

Who said there's anything wrong with it? I'm not judging here.

2) What is "tribal ancestry"? Like most Americans, my ancestry is so diverse it really amounts to very little in particular. It's not an important part of who I am.

Yes, for Americans I expect different responses than from Europeans, for these reasons. Your tribal ancestry is not particularly clear-cut. The Migration Period already makes it confusing enough for many Europeans.

 

[Dutch Historian]

I know what's in the Old Testament pretty well, but I confess that I have much less knowledge of Jewish history after the destruction of the second Temple and the migration that followed.

My knowledge of my ancestral history is almost the opposite. At the time of the writing of the Old Testament, my ancestors were still illiterate, so written records of them from that time are sparse. As they acquired literacy, written records got better, and I have a fairly good idea of their history over the last 1500 years or so.

Thanks for your interesting response.

 

[FireDragon76]

Who said there's anything wrong with it? I'm not judging here.


Yes, for Americans I expect different responses than from Europeans, for these reasons. Your tribal ancestry is not particularly clear-cut. The Migration Period already makes it confusing enough for many Europeans.

Tribal ancestry should not be particularly important for a Christian. The tragic history of racism in my country is something my church repudiates. I go to church with all kinds of people, some are Hispanic, some are Black. Nobody sits around and talks about their "tribal ancestry" at coffee hour. Of course we come from different cultural background but those are not reasons to discriminate against people.

 

[trophy33]

Regarding the time period into which the Old Testament is placed, tribes in Europe did not write 24 books about it. So, by definition, if somebody reads Bible few times, he must know more details of the Jewish history (if you consider it real history).

I think it starts to turn with Greek and Roman empires, from this era we have quite a lot of writings and other findings and the focus of the Bible and Christianity leaves Israel.

Regarding "tribal history", its hard to guess which tribes you have in mind. European lands were inhabited by many tribes that do not exist today, so its not "our history", but "the history of our lands". And current European nations are not composed of one tribe, they mixed a lot.

 

[FireDragon76]

Regarding the time period into which the Old Testament is placed, tribes in Europe did not write 24 books about it. So, by definition, if somebody reads Bible few times, he must know more details of the Jewish history (if you consider it real history).

I think it starts to turn with Greek and Roman empires, from this era we have quite a lot of writings and other findings and the focus of the Bible and Christianity leaves Israel.

Regarding "tribal history", its hard to guess which tribes you have in mind. European lands were inhabited by many tribes that do not exist today, so its not "our history", but "the history of our lands". And current European nations are not composed of one tribe, they mixed a lot.

Indeed. They did mix alot. It turns out I have some ancestry in North Africa, due to genetic testing (maybe I am related to Augustine). But to my knowledge, none of my known ancestors were from that region. Most came from France, Germany, Britain, and Ireland.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'd argue that for most people living in the modern world, ancient tribal identities, obscured by millennia of complex history and migration patterns, has been sufficiently replaced with other forms of identity--specifically national identity.

The ancient Celtic tribes of the region that once was called Gaul, which were conquered by Julius Caesar and then incorporated into the larger identity of Rome, and the later Visigoth and then Frankish conquests is probably a lot less important to the average person living in France than their French identity--an identity of nationhood regardless of ancestry. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect most French people simply identify themselves as French. And the same is true for most people living in the nations of Europe.


For me, though, my heritage, ancestry, or even my nation aren't what I regard as what defines me or my identity as a person. It's my religion that matters most.

My identity isn't one that I locate in nation or tribe, but one I locate in my baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[trophy33]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Europe_DNA_01.jpg

 

[Chesterton]

I go to church with all kinds of people, some are Hispanic, some are Black. Nobody sits around and talks about their "tribal ancestry" at coffee hour.

I go to church with all kinds of people, too. Some are Hispanic, some are black, some are Asian, some are Native American, most are Arab. We've often sat around and talked about ancestry. It's interesting. In the same way, we might also talk about music or food. Not everything has to be "wrong" or "important" to be interesting. But I understand that making it "important" is a huge industry. Just say no to the Racial Industrial Complex.

 

[PloverWing]

To clarify my previous post, some of my interest in my ancestry is because my dad did genealogical research on my family. He did all the work , but I enjoyed looking at his discoveries. Genealogy is a fun hobby; it's cool to know that some of my ancestors lived in place X or place Y, and maybe I could visit X or Y someday. To the extent that it's part of my identity, it means that I might wear a thistle or a Tudor rose on my RenFest costume, or learn some of my ancestral folk songs, but it's nothing like "my tribe is better than your tribe". Like @Chesterton said, it's more like sharing our favorite music or foods. I'll play some bagpipe music for you, you play some sitar music for me, we all have fun and learn stuff.

@Dutch Historian , what did you have in mind when you asked the question in your original post?

 

[Chesterton]

At the time of the writing of the Old Testament, my ancestors were still illiterate, so written records of them from that time are sparse.

At the time of the writing of this post, most of my contemporary family is still illiterate, although cousin Billybob is working on his GED.

 

[Niels]

I know more about ancient Jewish history in general, but I also know more about the past several hundred years of my specific ancestor's histories than I do about the history of specific Jewish families. It's fun to learn about where my ancestors lived and what they did for a living, but if I was able to look back far enough I'm pretty sure that their tribes would have been at war with one another.

It also seems to me that the ancient Jews had scribes who kept better track of such things than most other people groups of their time. Something that my ancient Scandinavian ancestors apparently lacked, for instance. Runestones don't contain as much information as scrolls. British history is better documented, but not even British history extends far back enough to place my British ancestors at the time of the ancient Jews. Maybe in terms of migration patterns and when they started using bronze, but not in terms of specific detailed histories. As a people, I greatly admire the ancient Jews for their literacy and conscientiousness.

 

[FireDragon76]

Being obsessed with ancestry and race is a fascination of the petty and vulgar. Superior people define themselves by their quest to improve their character.

 

[Dutch Historian]

@Dutch Historian , what did you have in mind when you asked the question in your original post?

Over the past years I have specialised my research in the histories of nomadic tribes and the study of representation and narratives pertaining to that topic. Given the rise of identity politics, it is fascinating to see the importance people give to particular parts of their identity, how they create their identity and how this is shaped by others - say, through politics. The current research can be seen in that context, as a case study.

 

[Astrid]

It seem to me that those who claim that
they've no ancestors earlier than about
6000 years ago are profoundly disrespectful
of their ancestors.