"Christ did not make the atonement when he shed his blood upon the cross."

[Pavel Mosko]

I keep hearing this denial then claim then denial of the claim, that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are one and the same, a created being, and not God Himself, just as Ellen White is said to have taught: not deity.

Yes, I agree! There are a few things at work. 1) Namely the huge Ecumenical efforts of the SDA that have taken place since the 1970s, and the fact that some groups have moderated their stance a lot when it comes to how high an authority, they see White, them using the Trinity terminology rather than repudiating it as coming from pagan philosophy etc.

Besides this there is 2) a great effort to reinterpret many of White sayings and teaching that are problematic or to bury them altogether. Probably the best example of this is the amalgamation theory of the races where White taught that some races of men were a mix of both human and beast. This probably the biggest hot button issue for obvious reasons (something that gets bad press etc.). Anyway, the barrier on such reinterpretations is the strong "thus sayeth the Lord" type language. There is a point a point that one cannot "Have his cake and eat it too" something has to give, and the strong claims about White tend to be undermined by all the other stuff that one finds with her teachings and proclamations.


And 3) as I said before, there is a "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" problem. Even if some Adventist group adopted the Nicene and Apostles creeds and basic Classical Christian theology, that stuff is not really compatible with the rest of their Adventist "distinctives" when it comes to the Sabbath and Sunday etc. Sure, if you wanted to more orthodox you could adopt those things, but in that case, you are always going to have a problem where one part of the faith is going to undermine the other, just like the classic parable of "A Kingdom Divided Against Itself". In all honesty there is so much going on in Adventism, that if someone wanted to keep the Sabbath distinctive but be in the Christian mainstream, some form of Messianic Judaism / Hebrew roots Christianity is the way to go rather than Ellen's church.

 

[Dah'veed]

I keep hearing this denial then claim then denial of the claim, that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are one and the same, a created being, and not God Himself, just as Ellen White is said to have taught: not deity.

As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

“The virgin ... will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23, N.I.V.
“The light of the knowledge of the glory of God” is seen “in the face of Jesus Christ.” From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was “the image of God,” the image of His greatness and majesty, “the outshining of his glory.”
So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all [new] created beings: the Father's life flows out to all, through the Son the great Source of all.—The Desire of Ages, 19-21.
“The minds of believers were to be directed to the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ had entered to make atonement for His people.”—Selected Messages, 1:67

Set your minds on things above, Col 3:2-4
He became the source of eternal salvation to all who believe/obey the gospel. Heb 5:9

 

[Pavel Mosko]

As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

It is kind of funny you say this, because I have been seeing this but it is a bit more than broken clocks and blind squirrels where I don't hate the Adventist position as much as the presenter on a given video. I am against the ultimate Adventist position because it really means people at the end of things are judged in the Investigative Judgement on whether or not they have perfectly followed the 10 Commandments and they are judged apart from Christ, they basically got to stand alone on that. While in Christianity you are judged by and large whether or not you are in Christ (for salvation), and Christ also will judge his followers on how they used the Talents, did they have the fruit of the Spirit in their life? etc.


But I did say this when analyzing the current video on Facebook.

"Going to be taking detailed notes on this video. Lots of great info for dealing with Seventh Day Adventists (dealing with them and their attempts to proselytize seems like my newfound hobby/ministry).

The author does make one big Nestorian gaffe/ potential pitfall mentioning something like the "The Jesus of the Gospels" is not "The Angel of the Lord of mount Sinai". While technically true, that is not the kind of point I would make especially because of it's heretical implications (making a big deal over the ontology of the Incarnation and hypostatic union etc. gives the impression they are two different being etc). As far as the personhood of the Son of God goes they are definitely the same being! IF you want a safe target to quibble over the nature of the Covenant and who the Covenant is addressed to is the target of opportunity that has little chance of backfiring.

I will also note I do see this kind of thing from time to time with Protestants, especially nonsacramental ones who do not see much day-to-day relationship with their belief and practice with Judaism (and are happy and even proud of that!) other than the most stripped-down basics of Abrahamic monotheism and the textbooks used, while Sacramental Christians tend to see it everywhere in our Liturgy, Sacraments, rules of faith, canon law, polity etc.."

 

[Dah'veed]

It is kind of funny you say this, because I have been seeing this but it is a bit more than broken clocks and blind squirrels where I don't hate the Adventist position as much as the presenter on a given video.

What position would that be, their go to verse that they take out of context?
Here are those who keep the [10] commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12-14

I am against the ultimate Adventist position because it really means people at the end of things are judged in the Investigative Judgement on whether or not they have perfectly followed the 10 Commandments and they are judged apart from Christ, they basically got to stand alone on that. While in Christianity you are judged by and large whether or not you are in Christ (for salvation),

For you died [to this world], and your [new] life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Col 3:3-4

To this peace indeed you were called as members in one body of believers. And be thankful to God always. Let the word of Christ have its home within you dwelling in your heart and mind—Col 3:15-16

and Christ also will judge his followers on how they used the Talents, did they have the fruit of the Spirit in their life? etc.

Shall the throne of iniquity, which devises evil by law, Have fellowship with You? Ps 94:20
They do not consider in their hearts and minds that their own doings encompass them; they are before my face. Hos 7:2
For a throne is established on righteousness (right standing with God). Prov 16:12 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth; Isa 16:5 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; 2 Cor 5:10
The Lord will remain and sit enthroned forever; He has prepared and established His throne for judgment. Ps 9:7 (Heb 10:12-14)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What position would that be, their go to verse that they take out of context?

I would put it more in terms of a doctrine preached and the general witness of the Church since antiquity. (I'm talking about stuff like 2 Stage Atonement and other stuff around it, like Sunday as Mark of the Beast in the 3 Angels Message, Investigative Judgement, Great Controversy.)

1) New Doctrines in the bad sense of the word. as in a different Gospel preached. 1 John 4:1, Galatians 1:8-9


2) Internal logic problems from their traditional position on Sunday
A) According to the book of Acts believers met 2 times on Sunday and that has been footnoted and differentiated from the Jewish sabbath since antiquity. This is the precise reason the Weekend exists, (Believers held both days sacred, but gave priority to Sunday the day of Resurrection because the ever-growing gentile believer demographic had it it's identity in Christ! Since they were not part of natural Israel and natural Israel was collapsing as the new church was rising.


B) As I stated before theologically point A is foreshadowed in various Jewish rituals and sacred days around things like the 8th day and Pentecost. Such things are symbolic of "Being a New Creation", "receiving new life in Christ" etc.

The 8th Day – The Last Feast is Just the Beginning

Shemini Atzeret, or The 8th Day, is the last of the Lord’s Feast days on the calendar, following seven other Feasts and placed on the end of a seven-day Feast, Sukkot / the Feast of Tabernacles. Bu…

messianicsabbath.com

C) The general stonewalling and gaslighting by SDA on point B compels me to excoriate their prophet, church etc.


D) There are lots of other stuff to say on the topic. I had some threads where I was trying to communicate some of the problems with a naked Bible approach, "Being Biblical Is Not Enough" is the best recent example.

Being "Biblical" Is not Enough.

This thread is based on a pet peeve of various Protestants tossing out that such and such belief/ practice of the ancient Church is "unbiblical" when it is in fact based on stuff out of the Bible, but it comes from a very different theological mind set than the person making such a claim. Post...

www.christianforums.com

Things are not just about Bible, but all the Apriori things people assume when they read it. People have an internal philosophy that they often aren't even aware of.


Besides this there are a few other big issues

1) the nature of Christian doctrine from an empirical and historical perspective.


2) the validity and legitimacy of Ellen White as prophet and teacher of the Bible, etc. And the same goes for Miller, and other "pioneers". The SDA may see them as being legitimate etc. but to me "It's like shooting fish in a barrel" with the number of problems I can find and go to town on. Basically, they can themselves as "The Remnant" and all other kinds of rationalization, defense mechanisms to get through the day and can see White as a wonderful prophet but that is going to be the biggest hard sell for the general body of Christ. A literal camel through the eye of the needle... And legitimately so!



PS - Yes there are some weird stuff they do with the Bible my thread on conflating and twisting the Scriptures is trying to deal with that. I am going to be taking detailed notes on the below video which details how they artificially separate the 10 commandments from the rest of the law of Moses.

Conflation and Twisting of the Scriptures on the Sabbath (under Construction)

1) Conflation of the Biblical terms of Nomos (Mosaic Law) and Entoli (personal commands of Jesus and other people in the Greek) the New Testament differentiates these things with different terms but Seventh day Adventist conflate them with verses like John 14:15-31 15 If ye love me, keep my...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Dah'veed]

I would put it more in terms of a doctrine preached and the general witness of the Church since antiquity. (I'm talking about stuff like 2 Stage Atonement ....

We were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:10

B) As I stated before theologically point A is foreshadowed in various Jewish rituals and sacred days around things like the 8th day and Pentecost. Such things are symbolic of "Being a New Creation", "receiving new life in Christ" etc.

A Jew is one inwardly, whose heart is right with God, reconciled through Christ's Spirit.

2) the validity and legitimacy of Ellen White as prophet and teacher of the Bible, etc. And the same goes for Miller,

If Miller were a prophet, he would not have been predicting a date for Christ's return, he would have been in Christ.
Because I live, you will live also. John 14:18-20 For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Paul's concern about word immaturity are justified.

Hebrews 5:10-14 KJV
10. Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Interesting parallel.

 

[Dah'veed]

Paul's concern about word immaturity are justified.
Hebrews 5:10-14 KJV 10. Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Therefore, since we have a great High Priest who has gone to heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us remain steadfast in the faith. Heb 4:14

For He who promised is faithful. Let us consider how to ignite the spark to greater love and to righteous deeds, not giving up assembling together, as some [who are unskilful in the word of righteousness] are in the habit of doing; (Heb 10:23-25)

14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Interesting parallel.

When He comes and knocks, blessed are they that welcome Him. (Luke 12:36-38)
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me. Rev 3:20