Christ and Nonviolent Resistance.

[chris777]

But I have to go along with non-violent resisters here and say it owes more to a failure of human creativity than to obeying Jesus.

Isn't the whole problem our creativity?
Cain effectively created both violence, and dishonesty, and they both stemmed from his disobedience.

If we truly cannot see a way to avoid violence, it would be better to use violence and ask forgiveness for our sin than to try and justify the violence as right

Amazing how few see that.

I am not going to say I would never retaliate with violence, as I don't know.
Rationally and from reading the scriptures, I would like to hope I would give place to Gods wrath, but I know
when I found out about my ex wife being raped, it was only the presence of my daughter with me that prevented me from acting on my desire to do him grave harm.
It also heartbreakingly exposed my evil desires, and sinful core that I thought I had "grown past" only to discover I was still in need of a savior as I at that time a murderer in my heart.

I am no pacifist, I know that when Christ returns it will be with the sword, the problem I see is that so many want to prematurely, and presumptuously take the sword from him, forgetting who it is that vengance belongs to alone.

Vengance belongs to God, because NONE of us is Fit to weld it.

 

[theIdi0t]

however when Christ returns, it is the sword he will weld.?

So it's an actual metallic sword? I always though it was his Word, what protrudes out of his mouth?

 

[chris777]

So it's an actual metallic sword? I always though it was his Word, what protrudes out of his mouth?

the wrath of God will come

 

[gluadys]

Isn't the whole problem our creativity?
Cain effectively created both violence, and dishonesty, and they both stemmed from his disobedience.

No, I would say generally that evil is a failure of creativity. Cain resorted to violence out of jealousy, not creativity. Creativity would have led him to win God's favour by developing his own relationship with God. Perhaps, even, by seeking help from Abel to do so.

I am not going to say I would never retaliate with violence, as I don't know.

I am pretty much in the same place. I would like to call myself a pacifist, but I don't trust myself enough to resist my own violent instincts.

But I agree with Gandhi that violence is essentially weaker than non-violence. Resort to arms is a coward's way out. But he recognized that not everyone has the inner strength to put away their weapons.

As Christians, relying on Christ and the Holy Spirit, we should have that inner strength. If we don't, we should through prayer and communion with him, build up our strength and help to strengthen others so that we can follow the way of peace.

Rationally and from reading the scriptures, I would like to hope I would give place to Gods wrath, but I know
when I found out about my ex wife being raped, it was only the presence of my daughter with me that prevented me from acting on my desire to do him grave harm.

Like the anger I felt when my daughter told me she had been raped.


Psalm 137 is a lament from exile. It is the one that begins so beautifully with the words "By the rivers of Babylon, we sat down and wept..." It ends with the sentiment "Blessed is he who takes your babies and dashes their heads against the rocks."

When we get sentimental about human nature, we like to leave out that part. We ask how scripture can condone such a cry for vengeance.

I don't think scripture is condoning vengeance here. But the bible does recognize the heartfelt cry as part of what we are. I don't think we should be shocked by the feeling. Not if we put ourselves in the place of the exile, remembering perhaps the day in Jerusalem when he and his wife were grabbed by Babylonian soldiers, and very probably, his infant torn from his wife's arms and casually thrown against a wall before her captor raped her in front of his eyes and then marched him away.

We can recognize the deep suffering that feeds a cry for vengeance, but also recognize that violence begets violence and only peace will beget peace.


If we truly desire a world in which our children are safe, we must create a world in which all children are safe, even the children of the Babylonians. (Interesting that ancient Babylon is today's Iraq.)

 

[wildthing]

Just got a new 9mm and am very happy with it's performance. And now it time for me to go hunting and take a deer. I enjoy the pleasure of the hunt so very much.

 

[gluadys]

Just got a new 9mm and am very happy with it's performance. And now it time for me to go hunting and take a deer. I enjoy the pleasure of the hunt so very much.

Since I am not a vegetarian, I have no right to oppose hunting. I am a bit concerned about hunting for sport rather than necessity, but even a sports hunter, I hope, appreciates the need to maintain the herd and protect its habitat.

 

[wildthing]

Since I am not a vegetarian, I have no right to oppose hunting. I am a bit concerned about hunting for sport rather than necessity, but even a sports hunter, I hope, appreciates the need to maintain the herd and protect its habitat.

as hunter, a sports hunter we are one of the best conservations around. we keep herd population in check thereby keeping the habitat in order. In area that don't allow hunting the damage that uncheck deer population run into millions of dollars each year. Also a concren for us is that we keep control of disease that run rampart in uncontroled deer populations.

Telling me that I'm not a conservationist is dead wrong after all I do want to make sure that future generations will be able to enjoy hunting.

It also give me chance once again to have trigger time and to understand shot placement so there would be no wounding of animal.

 

[chris777]

No, I would say generally that evil is a failure of creativity. Cain resorted to violence out of jealousy, not creativity. Creativity would have led him to win God's favour by developing his own relationship with God. Perhaps, even, by seeking help from Abel to do so.

his choice had nothing to do with creativity, it was his focus, he did not desire to please God, and out of that he turned to darker desires.
Their are some very creative, yet evil people in the world, torture devices were, and are in many ways ingenious, but the bottom line is love does not have to be innovative to be present.
I can see that even the simple have great compassion, and many times I envy that. Ignorance can for many be bliss.

I am pretty much in the same place. I would like to call myself a pacifist, but I don't trust myself enough to resist my own violent instincts.

I am not a pacifist, I just know I am not told to retaliate by my master, and I know enough to obey.

But I agree with Gandhi that violence is essentially weaker than non-violence. Resort to arms is a coward's way out. But he recognized that not everyone has the inner strength to put away their weapons.

Gandhi was a flake, sorry but he was, the problem with him is that he focused squarely on achieving his own agenda, he admired Christ, but he was unable to see Christ for who he really is. I get a lot of flack for not kissing Gandhi behind, however As a Christian, I see it totally fruitless to admire, and follow the lost, and make no mistake about it, he was lost.

As Christians, relying on Christ and the Holy Spirit, we should have that inner strength. If we don't, we should through prayer and communion with him, build up our strength and help to strengthen others so that we can follow the way of peace.

I truely though I had it, but upon gaining the knowledge of events I had no control over, my own deeply hidden inner sin welled up and spewed fourth. I say this as a word of caution to us all, to never come to the point of believing yourself having "conquered" a particular sin, because just as soon as you drop your guard, as I had satan will tempt you in a new , and unexpected way.
I thought I had made peace with all men, and could forgive them, I was proven wrong, and its taken time, and now I know that I can still be tempted in even sin I thought I had grown past.

Like the anger I felt when my daughter told me she had been raped.

Exactly I became privy to darkness I thought I no longer contained,
I literally had to go and confess to a friend, so that I did not do something foolish, and frankly demeaning to the Gospel.
Vengeance is Gods alone, just as he sends the rain on both the just, and unjust, we shall all reap what we have sewn, so while I wanted to wreak vengance far in excess of sevenfold of what he had done, it is not my place to do that.

Psalm 137 is a lament from exile. It is the one that begins so beautifully with the words "By the rivers of Babylon, we sat down and wept..." It ends with the sentiment "Blessed is he who takes your babies and dashes their heads against the rocks."

When we get sentimental about human nature, we like to leave out that part. We ask how scripture can condone such a cry for vengeance.

I don't think scripture is condoning vengeance here. But the bible does recognize the heartfelt cry as part of what we are. I don't think we should be shocked by the feeling. Not if we put ourselves in the place of the exile, remembering perhaps the day in Jerusalem when he and his wife were grabbed by Babylonian soldiers, and very probably, his infant torn from his wife's arms and casually thrown against a wall before her captor raped her in front of his eyes and then marched him away.

We can recognize the deep suffering that feeds a cry for vengeance,

his ways are not ours, our sinfulness separates us more than just physically from God, in we are aliens to each other.

but also recognize that violence begets violence and only peace will beget peace.

their is a reason sin is not allowed in Gods presence.

If we truly desire a world in which our children are safe, we must create a world in which all children are safe, even the children of the Babylonians. (Interesting that ancient Babylon is today's Iraq.)

It is a desire in theory alone, or bluntly delusion Our children will never be safe until sin is eliminated from our being.
We needed a savior for a reason, because a "utopia" will and is impossible with sin, it will always fall, just as surely as all nations will, and have.

 

[chris777]

I have never hunted, with a real Gun, I know the lure though, As I tried it with a bb pistol once, but could never hit the bird. Probably been more accurate with a slingshot, definitely more powerful.

I have been pondering life and death though as I am not a vegitarian, and have though about the difficulties, of taking the life, from a creature should I have to,
I killed a squirrel yesterday, thinking I had lost count of how many I had run over.
And having been in 4 collisions with deer in my face on my window I can definitely see the need for population trimming.

But I do also see a hunger take over some people where the thrill of the kill becomes so consuming, its as if they are possessed.

I do not wish that to happen to me again, but it does remain a presence if the need to kill. and eat should arise.

 

[wildthing]

I have never hunted, with a real Gun, I know the lure though, As I tried it with a bb pistol once, but could never hit the bird. Probably been more accurate with a slingshot, definitely more powerful.

You should really give it try. I have founded to be most relaxing. Almost as relaxing as when I go fencing.

I have been pondering life and death though as I am not a vegitarian, and have though about the difficulties, of taking the life, from a creature should I have to,
I killed a squirrel yesterday, thinking I had lost count of how many I had run over.
And having been in 4 collisions with deer in my face on my window I can definitely see the need for population trimming.

Ponder no more. They are just animals. We are to have dominion over them.

But I do also see a hunger take over some people where the thrill of the kill becomes so consuming, its as if they are possessed.

Like I said there is much enjoyment in the hunt. To be outside and to enjoy what God has created. Being able to do a one shot kill.

I do not wish that to happen to me again, but it does remain a presence if the need to kill. and eat should arise.

Have you killed before? I have it was selfdefense. I had armed intruder in my house. That had already taken the life of another.

 

[gluadys]

Y They are just animals. We are to have dominion over them.

What do you think it means "to have dominion over"?

Do you think that is a license to be irresponsible toward them?

Have you checked in a thesaurus on synonyms of "dominion"?

 

[chris777]

You should really give it try. I have founded to be most relaxing. Almost as relaxing as when I go fencing.

Need a free gun, bulets, and licence not to mention gas money

Ponder no more. They are just animals. We are to have dominion over them.
Like I said there is much enjoyment in the hunt. To be outside and to enjoy what God has created. Being able to do a one shot kill.
Have you killed before? I have it was selfdefense. I had armed intruder in my house. That had already taken the life of another.

I may have had a discussion with you before ,but in particular, have you ever held something vibrant, and alive in your arms, then suddenly unexplainably felt that life just cease and go limp in your arms.
I had a dog die in my arms as I tried to carry him across the threshold of the vet, its a very enlightening experience,
While I currently have no problem with killing and eating animals, once the end comes, their will be no more death , animals included, I see it as a concession in our fallen world, as some would not eat at all without meat suplementing their diet, sort of like how the food laws have been relaxed on non kosher meats.

 

[wildthing]

Need a free gun, bulets, and licence not to mention gas money

Nothing is free. Then you need to convince me that you can handle such firearms.

I may have had a discussion with you before ,but in particular, have you ever held something vibrant, and alive in your arms, then suddenly unexplainably felt that life just cease and go limp in your arms.
I had a dog die in my arms as I tried to carry him across the threshold of the vet, its a very enlightening experience,

Have done the same thing many times. It's just animal that can be and was replaced at the same as death of the 1st. It was just the way I was brought up. A dog a cat is replaceable unit.

While I currently have no problem with killing and eating animals, once the end comes, their will be no more death , animals included, I see it as a concession in our fallen world, as some would not eat at all without meat suplementing their diet, sort of like how the food laws have been relaxed on non kosher meats.

Is there an end? I'm sure I will die just like you will. You speak like the end is going to happen soon. I have heard this before many times from the church that I use to belong to. We are still here and the preachers speak as if the end of time is near, it's not. They take there sermons from the book of Rev. But as I understand that book it is be taken as allegory

 

[wildthing]

What do you think it means "to have dominion over"?

Try Genesis 1:28

Do you think that is a license to be irresponsible toward them?

We are to take care of a resource. We are to use a resource. Animal is a replaceable unit therefor a resource. We are not license to be cruel. One shot kill is not cruel but mercyful.

Have you checked in a thesaurus on synonyms of "dominion"?

Dominian Noun

The act of exercising controlling power or the condition of being so controlled.

The right and power to command, decide, rule or judge.

Legal right to possession of a thing.

Roget's II Thesaurus.

 

[chris777]

Nothing is free. Then you need to convince me that you can handle such firearms.

Ahh but some things are free, but I was specifically referring to how I am disabled, and broke currently, so acquisition, and the financial ability to use a weapon are currently only available to me as Gifts, as to firing a gun, I have never fired a pistol. and have only used a rifle once about 15 years ago on a couple of long range sniper shots.
I did get to fire a shotgun a couple of weeks back at a church turkey shoot .
Lets just say I would prefer to be seated, the next time I fire a weapon.

Have done the same thing many times. It's just animal that can be and was replaced at the same as death of the 1st. It was just the way I was brought up. A dog a cat is replaceable unit.

I know its just the first time I had that happen, and it caused me to ponder the situation. I am not jaded to it.

Is there an end? I'm sure I will die just like you will. You speak like the end is going to happen soon. I have heard this before many times from the church that I use to belong to. We are still here and the preachers speak as if the end of time is near, it's not. They take there sermons from the book of Rev. But as I understand that book it is be taken as allegory

As a hunter I am surprised on your outlook upon life and its relative brevity.
As for the end soon, once you realize your own mortality time appears to pass much more rapidly. I believe it was written to all men at all time, and while you might be saved, that does not mean your neighbor is, thus the pressing of urgency.
Just because the scriptures were written nearly 2000 years ago, does not mean that the message is not relevant, as for date setting no the scriptures warn against it, hence your own dismissal of the scriptural message of urgency, but it is there maby when you realize you are a little closer to death yourself.
I know their was a time I did not believe any of this, and now its all I believe, their is a season for everyone.
I don't believe my time is near, but I sure feel like it lol.
But in perspective even If I lived to be a hundred it would be nothing in the light of eternity.

 

[gluadys]

Try Genesis 1:28

That is where the phrase comes from. The question is what does it imply. One does not understand this verse unless one understands what "dominion" is and what the responsibilities of a "dominus" are.

"dominus" from which the word "dominion" comes is Latin for "lord".

We say "Jesus is Lord."

I take that to mean that as those having dominion over others, we are to be lords after the model of Jesus our Lord.

We are to take care of a resource. We are to use a resource. Animal is a replaceable unit therefor a resource. We are not license to be cruel. One shot kill is not cruel but mercyful.

Agreed. But even a one-shot kill that is unnecessary is crueler than permitting the animal to live.

Dominian Noun

The act of exercising controlling power or the condition of being so controlled.

The right and power to command, decide, rule or judge.

Legal right to possession of a thing.

Roget's II Thesaurus.

Good. I think Gen. 1:28 is best understood using the second definition. We have been given the right and power to command, decide, rule or judge.

And we shall be judged by how we exercise that right and power under God.

We do not have a license to do as we please with God's creation, but to rule wisely and with right and wise judgment. Our laws (commands) and decisions, whether individual or corporate, should be made with that in mind.

 

[wildthing]

Ahh but some things are free, but I was specifically referring to how I am disabled, and broke currently, so acquisition, and the financial ability to use a weapon are currently only available to me as Gifts, as to firing a gun, I have never fired a pistol. and have only used a rifle once about 15 years ago on a couple of long range sniper shots.
I did get to fire a shotgun a couple of weeks back at a church turkey shoot .
Lets just say I would prefer to be seated, the next time I fire a weapon.

I'm glad you had a chance to shoot. Many times I hear people complain about hunting and shooting without even giving it a go. This would be akin to me complain about golf or any other game without try it first.

I would think their people that would take you out to go hunting. In my state their are people who do this very thing.

I shoot competive high powered rifle. the 1st time was not good but as I practise it became much better. Shot gunning can be fun to, never turn down a chance at doing it. Pistol shooting was drilled into me since I was 16, dad would take me out wit his service pistol and I would shoot that firearm. After all that practise. Twice a week I do very well with it.

I know its just the first time I had that happen, and it caused me to ponder the situation. I am not jaded to it.

Sorry about the lose of a the dog.

As a hunter I am surprised on your outlook upon life and its relative brevity.
As for the end soon, once you realize your own mortality time appears to pass much more rapidly. I believe it was written to all men at all time, and while you might be saved, that does not mean your neighbor is, thus the pressing of urgency.

I realized it every time when ever I read a Field report from Iraq.

Just because the scriptures were written nearly 2000 years ago, does not mean that the message is not relevant, as for date setting no the scriptures warn against it, hence your own dismissal of the scriptural message of urgency, but it is there maby when you realize you are a little closer to death yourself.

Like I said before I understand it is short. My dismissal is just from going to wrong church that taught fear of a uncaring God. where every Sunday was a sermon on Rev, but alast even Rev taught about the duties and responablities of the church when it talked about the four churches. When it should of taught about the Love of God and the gift that He made avialbe to us. And that we all have a part in sharing the "Good News"

I know their was a time I did not believe any of this, and now its all I believe, their is a season for everyone.
I don't believe my time is near, but I sure feel like it lol.
But in perspective even If I lived to be a hundred it would be nothing in the light of eternity.

Turn, Turn, Turn. For everything there is a season, a time for every activity under the sun. A time to be born and a time to die. A time to plant and a time to up root. A time to kill and a time to heal.

Time really does fly. I have days like yours too. LOL

 

[wildthing]

That is where the phrase comes from. The question is what does it imply. One does not understand this verse unless one understands what "dominion" is and what the responsibilities of a "dominus" are.

"dominus" from which the word "dominion" comes is Latin for "lord".

We say "Jesus is Lord."

I take that to mean that as those having dominion over others, we are to be lords after the model of Jesus our Lord.

Good I take it to mean our personal relations to other humans. Not our relation to the animals we hunt. But still we are to treat our personal domstic animals well. I would never hurt a cat/dog unless it is to protect myself, my neighbors... Treatment of wild animals during hunting season and ferral animals is another thing.

Agreed. But even a one-shot kill that is unnecessary is crueler than permitting the animal to live.

have you seen a deer strave? have you seen an animal freeze to death? Have you seen what a deer with bovnine TB can do to a herd of cows. Nature is more cruel then a one shot kill from a rifle.

Good. I think Gen. 1:28 is best understood using the second definition. We have been given the right and power to command, decide, rule or judge.

And we shall be judged by how we exercise that right and power under God.

We do not have a license to do as we please with God's creation, but to rule wisely and with right and wise judgment. Our laws (commands) and decisions, whether individual or corporate, should be made with that in mind.

Once again I believe it is our relationship with each other not our relationship to animals we hunt. That God will judge us on. I think it's more important to be witness to others then to be a witness to animal.

Once again God gave us this earth. We are to use it. If there is mineral it is ment to used. If there is pleniful game we are ment to use that too. So yes we are to use it wisely, it is ment to be used.

 

[chris777]

Time really does fly. I have days like yours too. LOL

Days? its my life lol

 

[Tanakh]

Christ and non-violence just don't go with one another. Christ and his followers have brought about more suffering upon the world then any other entity in history. Nothing compares to the destructive force that Jesus bestowed on the world.

CPT and other "Peaceful" and "non-violent" groups who use Matthew 9-10 to justify their love of our enemies Hamas. CPT and those like them are the scum of the earth and must be punished without mercy. Christendom is for murder not peace!