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Chrisitianity over other religions

Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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we all the know the answer to this question within our hearts, but how do we explain to the un-believers?

D'art-

Have you ever known, say, a muslim or a hindu who had an incredibly deep, passionate faith in their religion (I have known many). Obviously, from your point of view they are mistaken. But if their powerful, profound faith can be mistaken, how can you be certain that your own powerful, profound faith is not mistaken?

-Dave

This was a question asked me in another forum. I've given two answers.

1. Living in a closet, I cannot say that I have. However, I do not deny that there are such people. Why do I believe their faith is mistaken and mine is not? Because my religion is one in which God saves man, not man saves himself.

he responds:
1. That's essentially what Muslims believe, too.
2. It's a non-argument. You're saying that your faith is correct because X is a theological precept of your faith. Well, a Hindu's faith tells him something else, just as strongly. How do you answer a Brahmin who tells you that his religion is correct because it is one which recognizes the cycle of birth and rebirth, and shows how all beings can ultimately achieve moksha by correctly living out their dharma over all their lifetimes? (I've seen Hindu 'fundamentalists' make exactly that argument, which the same one you just made except for which theological precept is offered).

-Dave

I respond:

How could I not believe in a God that has given me the stregnth to overcome my sinful desires? Who has given me a new heart to think differently that I once did. My life is not one of the model Christian if you will. I've got my deep dark side, and God alone delivered me of it.

none the less, your argument is an interesting one; one I have not often been asked. I have yet to develope a good apologetic against it, if one even exists. I see that will be something I'll be working on.



I am coming to ask how you all deal with this question. I pray the Lord will deliver me the answer through his word or through my fellow Christians.
 

Ceris

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Interesting responses. You have obviously put much more thought into this than I have... in fact I've pretty much given up on apologetic debates (not that I haven't come up with explanations and such, its just that I feel I personally am more effective when I am sharing my faith with someone, not arguing it).
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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this forum is filled with people who like to ridicule the Christian stance. These people aren't interested in being converted, they are interested in making Christianity look stupid. If I am arguing, it is to defend my beliefs in a holy God that will hold believer and un-believer accounatable one day.

Now I agree, speaking to someone 1 on 1 is so much more beneficial. However, when my faith is belittled, how can I stand by and watch it happen. This is on my fencing forum, and fencing is small enough that I know some of these people personally. Therefore, perhaps one day one of these guys who read this might ask me about something in person and I may be able to show them my faith and hope.
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
this forum is filled with people who like to ridicule the Christian stance. These people aren't interested in being converted, they are interested in making Christianity look stupid. If I am arguing, it is to defend my beliefs in a holy God that will hold believer and un-believer accounatable one day.

Now I agree, speaking to someone 1 on 1 is so much more beneficial. However, when my faith is belittled, how can I stand by and watch it happen. This is on my fencing forum, and fencing is small enough that I know some of these people personally. Therefore, perhaps one day one of these guys who read this might ask me about something in person and I may be able to show them my faith and hope.
I could not agree more. Christian Forums has really shocked me ever since I joined. I have never seen such hatred and anger against Christianity, Jesus Christ and the Bible than I have in here. And the moderators do nothing, they actually gang up with the pagans and help slam the Christians....it is really bad.

Thank God for the Christian only forums and especially this Reformed room! I was about to leave until I found this area.
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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Cal said:
I could not agree more. Christian Forums has really shocked me ever since I joined. I have never seen such hatred and anger against Christianity, Jesus Christ and the Bible than I have in here. And the moderators do nothing, they actually gang up with the pagans and help slam the Christians....it is really bad.

Thank God for the Christian only forums and especially this Reformed room! I was about to leave until I found this area.

Believe it or not, I wasn't talking about Christians Forums, but my Fencing related forum. This is what I had to say about Christian Forums.

try http://www.christianforums.com

try debating homosexuality with United Methodist Christians, atheists, homosexuals who profess Christianity and the like. I'm suprised I haven't had a stroke yet. You'll never get any scriptural arguments from them. All they do is try to tear down your argument and say "you're a bigot!"

As to the general area, I could not agree more. The moderators get behind the scoffers by saying, that's not being nice. If they want to be that way, fine, I'll stay out of there. The bad thing is that sometimes even I wanted to back up some of the fence strattlers when someone came in guns a blazing. Its just not a good idea. I was listening to an audio sermon of a pastor named Dr. Ian K. Paisly, and he had some interesting things to say about this. Allow me to attempt to quote.

'I wish I had been there with Elijah when he took on the priests of Baal. And you know what, he even mocked them! Now if someone did that today, you'd hear (in a sarcastic voice) "Now that's not nice, that isn't Christ like." Christ-like isn't what some apostiate professor says, its what God says about his son, in THE BIBLE! (For those who have heard Dr. Paislely before, you know he's got one heck of a booming, Irish voice). I want to be just like my Lord. And when he preached he didn't say, lovely liars, delightful serpants, beautiful sepulchers."

Anyway, you get the point.
I am so thankful that we finally have our own room. I too was ready to leave until we got this!
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
Believe it or not, I wasn't talking about Christians Forums, but my Fencing related forum. This is what I had to say about Christian Forums.

try http://www.christianforums.com

try debating homosexuality with United Methodist Christians, atheists, homosexuals who profess Christianity and the like. I'm suprised I haven't had a stroke yet. You'll never get any scriptural arguments from them. All they do is try to tear down your argument and say "you're a bigot!"

As to the general area, I could not agree more. The moderators get behind the scoffers by saying, that's not being nice. If they want to be that way, fine, I'll stay out of there. The bad thing is that sometimes even I wanted to back up some of the fence strattlers when someone came in guns a blazing. Its just not a good idea. I was listening to an audio sermon of a pastor named Dr. Ian K. Paisly, and he had some interesting things to say about this. Allow me to attempt to quote.

'I wish I had been there with Elijah when he took on the priests of Baal. And you know what, he even mocked them! Now if someone did that today, you'd hear (in a sarcastic voice) "Now that's not nice, that isn't Christ like." Christ-like isn't what some apostiate professor says, its what God says about his son, in THE BIBLE! (For those who have heard Dr. Paislely before, you know he's got one heck of a booming, Irish voice). I want to be just like my Lord. And when he preached he didn't say, lovely liars, delightful serpants, beautiful sepulchers."

Anyway, you get the point.
I am so thankful that we finally have our own room. I too was ready to leave until we got this!
I'm in the Theistic Evolution room now (Christians Only) and a moderator is trying to talk me out of defending my position through the Word of God. He tried for a week through private messages and now he is doing it more subtle through public statements. He is a theistic evolutionist and has been on my tail since I began posting.

He gave me two warnings because I brought up the fact that Atheists support evolution and that should be some indication of it's error. He said that was flaming and that we should not associate Theistic Evolutionists with Atheists by making comments like that.

It's really very embarrassing and get's me kinda angry. Of course, I've gotta tell the truth even if it hurts.

Oh well!
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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wow, that is something else. I may have misread yoru post, but is this moderator trying to tell you to stop defending your positition from the Bible, or his he using the Bible to show you where your position is incorrect. I think its the former, and that is sad :)

Nice point that the fact that Atheists love evolution to be a lie! I'll have to remember that one.
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
wow, that is something else. I may have misread yoru post, but is this moderator trying to tell you to stop defending your positition from the Bible, or his he using the Bible to show you where your position is incorrect. I think its the former, and that is sad :)

Nice point that the fact that Atheists love evolution to be a lie! I'll have to remember that one.
Yes, he has/is actually demanding that I keep my debate on scientific discoveries and quit debating from Scripture because that indirectly implies Theistic Evolutionists don't believe in Scripture.

Of course I told him that was nonsense and I will always quote Scripture. I don't think he liked that response either....I'm walking on thin ice. But, if I get booted it will be my honor to suffer "for righteousness sake."
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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Cal said:
Yes, he has/is actually demanding that I keep my debate on scientific discoveries and quit debating from Scripture because that indirectly implies Theistic Evolutionists don't believe in Scripture.

Of course I told him that was nonsense and I will always quote Scripture. I don't think he liked that response either....I'm walking on thin ice. But, if I get booted it will be my honor to suffer "for righteousness sake."

There you go, bear that reproach for the Word's sake!

So anybody have any ideas on my question? Maybe I should do some praying.
 
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A. believer

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Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
we all the know the answer to this question within our hearts, but how do we explain to the un-believers?

D'art-

Have you ever known, say, a muslim or a hindu who had an incredibly deep, passionate faith in their religion (I have known many). Obviously, from your point of view they are mistaken. But if their powerful, profound faith can be mistaken, how can you be certain that your own powerful, profound faith is not mistaken?

-Dave

This was a question asked me in another forum. I've given two answers.

1. Living in a closet, I cannot say that I have. However, I do not deny that there are such people. Why do I believe their faith is mistaken and mine is not? Because my religion is one in which God saves man, not man saves himself.

he responds:
1. That's essentially what Muslims believe, too.
2. It's a non-argument. You're saying that your faith is correct because X is a theological precept of your faith. Well, a Hindu's faith tells him something else, just as strongly. How do you answer a Brahmin who tells you that his religion is correct because it is one which recognizes the cycle of birth and rebirth, and shows how all beings can ultimately achieve moksha by correctly living out their dharma over all their lifetimes? (I've seen Hindu 'fundamentalists' make exactly that argument, which the same one you just made except for which theological precept is offered).

-Dave

I respond:

How could I not believe in a God that has given me the stregnth to overcome my sinful desires? Who has given me a new heart to think differently that I once did. My life is not one of the model Christian if you will. I've got my deep dark side, and God alone delivered me of it.

none the less, your argument is an interesting one; one I have not often been asked. I have yet to develope a good apologetic against it, if one even exists. I see that will be something I'll be working on.



I am coming to ask how you all deal with this question. I pray the Lord will deliver me the answer through his word or through my fellow Christians.
I encourage you to study the field of presuppositional apologetics to gain a better understanding of the nature of the question and of the answer. Read Cornelius Van Til and Greg Bahnsen. You'll find lots by them on the internet.
 
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A. believer

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Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
hehe, yeah, I was thinking about that. I have read one book on presumpositional appologetics. I guess then my answer would be not to defend my argument, but have him prove that I am in fact wrong; which he cannot do.
It's not just that he can't prove you wrong (which he'll most likely readily admit--in fact he'll most likely say that neither you nor the Hindu, Muslim, or anyone else can be proven right or wrong), but that he won't be able to defend his own presuppositions that lead him to believe anything on the basis of his own worldview, and neither can anyone else except for the Christian. The heart of presuppositionalism is that only the Christian worldview provides the preconditions for the intelligibility of reality--we can know that Christianity is true because of the impossibility of the contrary. Apart from Christianity, one cannot prove anything. We all interpret reality based upon presuppositions--he has them, people of other religions have them, everyone has them. But only Christian presuppositions are internally defensible. Others are arbitrary, apart from presupposing a Christian worldview.

This is a difficult proposition for me to explain very clearly, though, so I'd definitely recommend you read Bahnsen. Here's a good one for starters. The Heart of the Matter.
 
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