Chosen or Elected?

[aiki]

I'm sorry brother I'm not prepared to discuss on your terms, I said this from the beginning. I love to discuss this but through Scripture and in love.

Please show me where I have not discussed in the manner you describe above. I have not called you "weird" as you have me; I have not shouted at you, as you did me; I have not accused you of calling God a liar as you did me. As far as I can see, I am not the one who is guilty of failing to discuss things in a loving manner...

Disagreeing with your ideas and interpretation of Scripture does not mean I have done something unloving. I have been matter-of-fact, but this is far from being unloving.

I'm not interested in your opinions about me,

I have not offered any opinions about you. All I have talked about is your interpretation of Scripture. I have said you are in error in your thinking, but that's no more than can be said for every person on the planet. There isn't a single person on this globe who hasn't had an erroneous thought (and probably a great many of those). Errors in thinking don't make you bad, or evil, or stupid, or whatever; they simply make you human. So, what's the problem?

and what you say about what I say, for you are not talking in the Spirit of love - basically you have been bible basing me, labelled me, and wrapped me up to be thrown out without further need of discussion

Actually, all my posts were offered with the hope that you would engage me in discussion about your views. Instead, you have done to me the very thing you have accused me of doing to you!

- why should I want to talk to you - when you treat me like this? Is that how you serve The Word?

I haven't labelled you; I have identified your doctrine and offered reasons why I think it doesn't treat Scripture well.

Even all your accusations against me are not true - as you state them - often the very opposite of what you say even - my intent has been from the beginning to be discuss this subject in love and with The Bible for that is the only way we are going to be able to understand anything the Bible says. For it was written by The Truth of Love Himself.

Well, then, feel free to offer a reasonable explanation of your thinking. I welcome your clarification!

As to why I haven't written back to you much has as main reason because I'm unwell at the moment and have been struggling to cope with my reality. I've got a severely depressive illness and am in my down cycle right now. In truth I have much to say about this subject - that is why I posted it.

I'm sorry to hear you're unwell. I hope you exit your cycle soon. I shall pray to that end.

Please withdraw from the discussion if you feel this is how you want to discuss this subject with me - I'm sorry I'm not interested whatsoever in talking with you as you have been doing. Such is simply not good for my health.

Very well. If my questions and observations are a little too direct and plain for you, then, certainly, I will withdraw.

Honestly true you have hurt me deeply brother with your uninformed assumptions and callous ways of interpreting my intent, you have simply degraded my love, my knowledge and integrity for and towards The Word and misconstrued what I have said and tried to do.

Well, I'm sorry you feel this way, but this isn't what I've done. I have only challenged your interpretation of Scripture and in so doing presented you with an opportunity to defend and clarify your view. I have never posted with the intent of deriding you as a person.

That was not very brotherly of you.

I could say the same about your responses to me - but I won't.

I hope you stop doing that

I would stop - if I had actually begun.

Selah.

 

[Jeshu]

Jer 17:5-8

This is what the LORD says:
“Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who draws strength from mere flesh
and whose heart turns away from the LORD.
That person will be like a bush in the wastelands;
they will not see prosperity when it comes.
They will dwell in the parched places of the desert,
in a salt land where no one lives.
“But blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD,
whose confidence is in him.
They will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”


To be able to understand The Word rightly - all is true and not just parts of it - so perfectly in context we have to explore God's Loving Nature for then The Word will reveal things Rightly - as it was written by God's Loving Truth - Jesus Christ Himself.


Not what people say brings us the knowledge of God - indeed I found most teachings of man fall far short of The Glory of God when we meet Him in His love.

So the first thing we need to do when we want to understand the bible rightly is love God, ourself and another - for then we know His Spirit will guide us. Otherwise The Bible is just dragon's fodder as history has clearly proven.

And the second thing we have to understand that The Word is a spiritual book more so than anything else - so The Word talks about what is and takes place within us and as so guides us away from our entrapment to Satan's slavery through The world and our own flesh - building us Christ's Kingdom instead in His Eternal Spirit of Truthful love.

And the third thing we must understand that The Word is Eternal - this means God's truths are true past, present and future - and in effect means that which Truth was before, is still like that now, and will be like that in the future. So once God's told you His - this can never not have been spoken, or be untrue when you sin or become untrue in the future (Rom 8)


So about all people being saved we have to go back to God's perspective before we smear our own loveless and by lies fed views over it.

For excuse me, are we talking about A Perfect Loving God or about the ugly abomination ruling us down here?

Could a God perfect God plan to create billions of image bearers and then let them all be lied to, tricked, polluted, oppressed, enslaved, imprisoned, hated, despised, perverted, down trodden and murdered - were what He did not create into being could have squander His gift of life instead - without saving His own kids murdered - indeed sending them to hell for being deceived like that?

Who dares to give any of God's Good Creation to Satan's fate? When God says that we are His - all paid for even - would Jesus need to die again?

I know all about pots for honour and dishonour but a god who cannot save his own creation - but looses any part of that to a bloody big selfish lie - is no god worth talking about that is for sure.



1)Who created all people as His image bearers and says that humanity is His offspring?

The Word did, does and always will! (Gen 1, Acts 17)

2)Who stole our son ship from us and made sure we would turn out untrue and sinful through lies and trickery?

Indeed Satan did - reprogramming God's own to be his own plunder for keeps.(Gen 3, psalm 51)

3)Who remedied our fall and how?

God did through His Son Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the whole world - so this means all sin has been paid for. (John 3, 1 Tim4:9-10, 1 John 2)

4) Who is going to reap the benefits of this?

The weak, poor, blind, lame, beggars, no hopers, prostitutes and other lost sinners - but not those sinners feasting for themselves. (James 2)



5) who is going to get punished for doing evil?

The evil doers! (Rev 20-21)


So from God's perspective we sinners are all His lost children walking around with untrue being in self yet He opened the door for all of us to enter into His Rest.

It is here that The Chosen or Elect come into play - even within ourselves for when Christ comes into our lives ruling wrong goes down as His loving truth takes over and frees us from having to have life in lying sinful reality and into His loving forgiving and gracious ones instead.

For us believers this is greatest Salvation - like Paul says - God is the saviour of all men but especially for the believers - for what wasn't true and right in our hearts is now saved in Christ - and what was true and right but on the bottom of our sinful lives is now ruling happily with Christ. Undeserved merit - for it is awesome to be called to walk with Him a forgiven sinner

For people still oppressed by lies ruling - even if they don't understand this - Truthful Good Life has to slave for Bad Life daily - until Bad Life breaths its last - Good Life is freed from Bad Life then. A bit of teeth gnashing when those alive in bad life see their hated and abused Good life in Heaven and they themselves burning the crimes they comitted to Good life that is for sure (Hebrews 4:12-13. Rev 20-21)

To be continued.

 

[stormdancer0]

Okay, I'd like to discuss some of these conclusions.

So about all people being saved we have to go back to God's perspective before we smear our own loveless and by lies fed views over it.

For excuse me, are we talking about A Perfect Loving God or about the ugly abomination ruling us down here?

We are talking about God, Who, above all (even above love) is truth.

Could a God perfect God plan to create billions of image bearers and then let them all be lied to, tricked, polluted, oppressed, enslaved, imprisoned, hated, despised, perverted, down trodden and murdered - were what He did not create into being could have squander His gift of life instead - without saving His own kids murdered - indeed sending them to hell for being deceived like that?

God created us with the gift of choice. We can choose to follow Him or not. What good is forced love? You make the mistake of assuming that all non-believers are deceived. There are plenty who know the truth, and choose still to thumb their noses at God. Of course it saddens God that so many of His children go astray. But He delights in the ones who follow Him.

Who dares to give any of God's Good Creation to Satan's fate?

God does, at our request.

When God says that we are His - all paid for even - would Jesus need to die again?

No, we are all paid for. But not all of us want to leave the store, so to speak.

I know all about pots for honour and dishonour but a god who cannot save his own creation - but looses any part of that to a bloody big selfish lie - is no god worth talking about that is for sure.

So your God forces people to love Him? Not sure I'd want him for a god. My God gave me a choice. I choose to love and follow Him.

1)Who created all people as His image bearers and says that humanity is His offspring?

The Word did, does and always will! (Gen 1, Acts 17)

2)Who stole our son ship from us and made sure we would turn out untrue and sinful through lies and trickery?

Indeed Satan did - reprogramming God's own to be his own plunder for keeps.(Gen 3, psalm 51)

3)Who remedied our fall and how?

God did through His Son Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the whole world - so this means all sin has been paid for. (John 3, 1 Tim4:9-10, 1 John 2)

4) Who is going to reap the benefits of this?

The weak, poor, blind, lame, beggars, no hopers, prostitutes and other lost sinners - but not those sinners feasting for themselves. (James 2)



5) who is going to get punished for doing evil?

The evil doers! (Rev 20-21)


So from God's perspective we sinners are all His lost children walking around with untrue being in self yet He opened the door for all of us to enter into His Rest.

It is here that The Chosen or Elect come into play - even within ourselves for when Christ comes into our lives ruling wrong goes down as His loving truth takes over and frees us from having to have life in lying sinful reality and into His loving forgiving and gracious ones instead.

For us believers this is greatest Salvation - like Paul says - God is the saviour of all men but especially for the believers - for what wasn't true and right in our hearts is now saved in Christ - and what was true and right but on the bottom of our sinful lives is now ruling happily with Christ. Undeserved merit - for it is awesome to be called to walk with Him a forgiven sinner

For people still oppressed by lies ruling - even if they don't understand this - Truthful Good Life has to slave for Bad Life daily - until Bad Life breaths its last - Good Life is freed from Bad Life then. A bit of teeth gnashing when those alive in bad life see their hated and abused Good life in Heaven and they themselves burning the crimes they comitted to Good life that is for sure (Hebrews 4:12-13. Rev 20-21)

To be continued.

There is no scriptural evidence of "good life" vs "bad life." In fact, all our lives are by nature bad - we are all sinful. I think the error here is in dividing sheep and goats in each spirit, when there is no evidence for that parable being anything but straight-forward Christians vs Non-believers.


Some scripture I'd like you to explain according to your beliefs:

And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
(Revelation 20:15)
​

Does each man have a "good" name and a "bad" name?

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
(Revelation 19:20)
​

So, at least the false prophet and the one called "the beast" were thrown into the same lake of fire God created for Satan. That's two people who are there.

Then there's all the people who take the mark of the beast:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:9-11)
​

Their torment ascends forever, and they have no rest. That sure sounds like hell to me.

There's just too much evidence of the more traditional view of hell than the universal doctrine.

 

[Jeshu]

All the nations you have made
will come and worship before you, Lord;
they will bring glory to your name. (Psalm 86:9)

Okay, I'd like to discuss some of these conclusions.

We are talking about God, Who, above all (even above love) is truth.

Indeed

The Truth - our Heavenly Father - has placed The Son, whom He upholds as His True Image Bearer, for He raised Him from The Dead for all of us to see!

I agree with The Bible that Jesus Christ is The Revealed Truth of The Love of God - from every conceivable perspective. So dear sister - please before we are going to discuss God's Hell.

I would summarise as ultimate truth about The Truth is that God has placed Jesus ABOVE all THINGS and in ALL things and over all things! (Col 2) Jesus is seated at The Right Hand of God! So no Love no Truth!

Hear what Jesus says about those who crucified Him - you and I included.

Luke 23:34a


Jesus said,

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Can you see it is He who prays like that who rules our Universe, we best ponder on that first of all!

God created us with the gift of choice. We can choose to follow Him or not. What good is forced love? You make the mistake of assuming that all non-believers are deceived. There are plenty who know the truth, and choose still to thumb their noses at God. Of course it saddens God that so many of His children go astray. But He delights in the ones who follow Him.

God does, at our request.

No, we are all paid for. But not all of us want to leave the store, so to speak.

So your God forces people to love Him? Not sure I'd want him for a god. My God gave me a choice. I choose to love and follow Him.

I so glad you have decided to follow Him - it is this that makes us rejoice - people enjoying the Salvation from on high! To worship God who saved mankind from their sin and that you a sinner may know that you are saved and grow Newness of life with Him and in Him and have a chance to leave sin behind and dress yourself with His Salvation. Awesome indeed

However you are saying therefore that all the babies who die before they could make a choice for Jesus go to Hell? Are you saying that God's kids born into into the wrong religion will perish hellish agony forever? Are you are also saying the people suffering in terrible agony because of the sins of others - like the poor in Africa, India, South America - where people often die like flies because of evil regimes also those of the heartless West - who rather dumps its excess food in landfills and even the ocean - than give it to the starving a few kilometres further up?

You are saying that True acts of love will get Rewarded Hell because of choice made at other times.


So this analysis of your perspective is that your idea that a choice for Salvation is needed is therefore not truly loving at all - and is clearly not in line with the teachings of The Bible - which tells us - as we have seen - that Christ suffered for the sins of the whole World and that God is the Saviour of all men.

The Word must rule;

"Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing"

There is no scriptural evidence of "good life" vs "bad life." In fact, all our lives are by nature bad - we are all sinful. I think the error here is in dividing sheep and goats in each spirit, when there is no evidence for that parable being anything but straight-forward Christians vs Non-believers.

Okay I heard what you think -thank you for sharing that. I will tell you what The Word knows - easy fixed

For Spiritually The Truth of our sin is that - it divides our heart.

Psalm 86:11

Teach me your way, LORD,
that I may rely on your faithfulness;
give me an undivided heart,
that I may fear your name.


And here we have an even much more cutting Word about this.
In Hebrews 4:12-13

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


So in effect God is saying

That if I lay dying in The Dessert and Adolf Hitler saw me laying beside the road and stopped his Missile launcher and hopped out and gave me a drink of water because he heeded loving compassion in his heart when he saw me in my suffering - so Jesus assures us that Adolf Hitler will certainly not loose his reward for having done that - but will this talk Adolf free when at other times in his life he denied/killed/disobeyed/hated compassion the right to speak - and heeded the wicked and had life in evil spirit - killing God's image bearers by the millions - of course not!

Some scripture I'd like you to explain according to your beliefs:

And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
(Revelation 20:15)
​

Does each man have a "good" name and a "bad" name?

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
(Revelation 19:20)
​

So, at least the false prophet and the one called "the beast" were thrown into the same lake of fire God created for Satan. That's two people who are there.

Then there's all the people who take the mark of the beast:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:9-11)
​

Their torment ascends forever, and they have no rest. That sure sounds like hell to me.

There's just too much evidence of the more traditional view of hell than the universal doctrine.

See sis here you again, showing that you do not understand the truth of what I have been saying all along. Who makes you think I'm universalist? I certainly don't believe in universalism.

I already explained to you that God's Word teaches the Salvation of Mankind and the punishment of The wicked with God's Hell. Honestly no evildoer will escape The Loving Truth of God - not even in your heart.

Jesus knows all those who have life in wickedness for they are His and Father's Hell until Today - it has more to do with understanding things rightly - as Scripture says and not what men teaches - can you remember I said that in my first post already?

The Bible is a Spiritual book - it teaches! So you already know some of the Truth of The Book of Revelation to be true as you have met Him in your life down here plenty of times.

For the Word points out that

Rom 6:20-21

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!


So does God's light bring good for all dwelling within a sinful heart? We both know this is not true. I carry some deep shames about my sinful actions of the past - even though Christ has saved me from there now -my life then was shamefully loveless and truth-less - this is always going to be The Truth - He got me from The Dung Hill alright. We can bring it even closer to Home.

Didn't Satan down here deceived you to believe you needed to be numbered? Check out your school diplomas, driver's licence, passport, Ip address - must I go on?

Honestly true Sister have a careful look at how much of your life is ruled by numbers. Would such a numbered life be to our glory or to our shame you think - seeing we all serve our societies so well doing the numbering?

Our whole social order is numbered from every perspective - and also all God's Good Creation they have numbered - even the constellations in the Universe are known by number - indeed they even numbered the Word of God - putting numbers in front of His Word.

This lifewe live down here in The Lie - what will happen to all that when we meet The Truth of Perfect Love on The Clouds of Heaven you think?

At Home with God - how much of our life down here would remain - will determine the heat of the flame of our love for Him and also the heat of our hate for our old sinful life keeping His Perfect Love away from us though He walked beside us daily - I would imagine.

What you think?

 

[stormdancer0]

You make some good points. I'll have to ponder them.

But I still at this point believe that those who willingly, knowingly reject Jesus in this life will not be accepted by Him in the afterlife. At all.

Babies and young children are counted as righteous. I believe this because of Jesus' great love for children, and because He was so protective of them when He was here. But this is my opinion.

People who have no chance to hear of Jesus? I don't know. I have to trust that God will be fair and just with them.

Anyway, I'll think and pray.

 

[stormdancer0]

This is sort of caving into his misinterpretation for the sake of being diplomatic. Love Jeshu, certainly, but do so in truth as the Bible commands.

Selah.

This isn't caving in. It's admitting that I don't know everything. It's admitting that I could be wrong. I don't think I am, but neither does Jeshu. It is caving in to allow the possibility that others may have wisdom that I don't understand?

 

[Jeshu]

You make some good points. I'll have to ponder them.

But I still at this point believe that those who willingly, knowingly reject Jesus in this life will not be accepted by Him in the afterlife. At all.

Babies and young children are counted as righteous. I believe this because of Jesus' great love for children, and because He was so protective of them when He was here. But this is my opinion.

People who have no chance to hear of Jesus? I don't know. I have to trust that God will be fair and just with them.

Anyway, I'll think and pray.

Thanks dear for considering what I shared with you. God also explained His Word and love to me through prayer and meditation.


I absolutely agree that those people who deny Christ will miss out on eternal life, for they kill true being within them and have live in lies.

I believe that all life in doubt and unbelief we will perish - so if believers haven't confessed and repented of this in their hearts and still have life in such lies or any other lie it will die in them - yet I believe that believers will be delivered from doubt or unbelief if they did tell Christ such dwelt within their hearts and refused to heed it even though they couldn't shake it.

I also know that true acts of love, by believer or unbeliever, God will reward - as He says He will.

Though believers who think they are forgiven, so their sin can continue unhindered or teach sin is not sin any more, will causes some cutting in those hearts at His Coming - for Just and Righteous our Lord is in all His Ways - all Bad Life will certainly be deposed off - for Good Life to be there unhindered instead.


And finally I believe that Hell is God's misery. Our Heavenly Father and Brother have, are and will suffer hellish agony because of our sinful deeds - so at The End of Days when Christ comes the evil living in the human heart, such as existence in evil spirit - like life in lust, arrogance, dishonesty, rage, hate, racism, sexism, unfaithfulness and all other wicked perversions of God's Created Good Life - will get rewarded for what such evil deeds have done in Truth against God - so Hell is the misery evil - through our sinful lives - have brought into Being and is therefore an awesome place of ultimate justice for what wickedness has done.

Therefore I rejoice in the downfall of The Beast ruling us down here and I also urge all who have life in numbered life to repent (die to it) and serve God truthfully in faith, love and hope before it is too late.


Revelation 14:6-13

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice,

“Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”


A second angel followed and said,

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice:

“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say,

“Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

[stormdancer0]

Thanks dear for considering what I shared with you. God also explained His Word and love to me through prayer and meditation.


I absolutely agree that those people who deny Christ will miss out on eternal life, for they kill true being within them and have live in lies.

This seems to be the opposite of your earlier post:

Could a God perfect God plan to create billions of image bearers and then let them all be lied to, tricked, polluted, oppressed, enslaved, imprisoned, hated, despised, perverted, down trodden and murdered - were what He did not create into being could have squander His gift of life instead - without saving His own kids murdered - indeed sending them to hell for being deceived like that?

Who dares to give any of God's Good Creation to Satan's fate? When God says that we are His - all paid for even - would Jesus need to die again?

I know all about pots for honour and dishonour but a god who cannot save his own creation - but looses any part of that to a bloody big selfish lie - is no god worth talking about that is for sure
​

Even Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "Why do you call Me good? There is none good but God." Therefore, I disagree with all of God's creation being good, specifically people. He created them good, but we managed to mess that up, and "in me there is no good thing" (as Paul said).

I believe that all life in doubt and unbelief we will perish - so if believers haven't confessed and repented of this in their hearts and still have life in such lies or any other lie it will die in them - yet I believe that believers will be delivered from doubt or unbelief if they did tell Christ such dwelt within their hearts and refused to heed it even though they couldn't shake it.

I also know that true acts of love, by believer or unbeliever, God will reward - as He says He will.

I agree. But Jesus said that there will be differing levels of punishment, as well as different jobs or positions in Heaven. I believe these levels are the result of God taking into account acts of love by unbelievers.

Though believers who think they are forgiven, so their sin can continue unhindered or teach sin is not sin any more, will causes some cutting in those hearts at His Coming - for Just and Righteous our Lord is in all His Ways - all Bad Life will certainly be deposed off - for Good Life to be there unhindered instead.


And finally I believe that Hell is God's misery. Our Heavenly Father and Brother have, are and will suffer hellish agony because of our sinful deeds - so at The End of Days when Christ comes the evil living in the human heart, such as existence in evil spirit - like life in lust, arrogance, dishonesty, rage, hate, racism, sexism, unfaithfulness and all other wicked perversions of God's Created Good Life - will get rewarded for what such evil deeds have done in Truth against God - so Hell is the misery evil - through our sinful lives - have brought into Being and is therefore an awesome place of ultimate justice for what wickedness has done.

I see no scriptural evidence for God (the Father or Jesus either One) being in hellish agony. I see the opposite, in fact. Jesus was taken up into the glory He had before the creation of time. John did not see a tortured, agonizing Christ when Revelation was revealed to him. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

 

[Jeshu]

This seems to be the opposite of your earlier post:

Could a God perfect God plan to create billions of image bearers and then let them all be lied to, tricked, polluted, oppressed, enslaved, imprisoned, hated, despised, perverted, down trodden and murdered - were what He did not create into being could have squander His gift of life instead - without saving His own kids murdered - indeed sending them to hell for being deceived like that?

Who dares to give any of God's Good Creation to Satan's fate? When God says that we are His - all paid for even - would Jesus need to die again?

I know all about pots for honour and dishonour but a god who cannot save his own creation - but looses any part of that to a bloody big selfish lie - is no god worth talking about that is for sure
​

Even Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "Why do you call Me good? There is none good but God." Therefore, I disagree with all of God's creation being good, specifically people. He created them good, but we managed to mess that up, and "in me there is no good thing" (as Paul said).


I agree. But Jesus said that there will be differing levels of punishment, as well as different jobs or positions in Heaven. I believe these levels are the result of God taking into account acts of love by unbelievers.

I see no scriptural evidence for God (the Father or Jesus either One) being in hellish agony. I see the opposite, in fact. Jesus was taken up into the glory He had before the creation of time. John did not see a tortured, agonizing Christ when Revelation was revealed to him. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

Ezekiel 33:14

If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.



Great questions!

This should open up your understanding about what I mean to say a little I hope. It is true our sinful existence cannot claim righteousness in and of our selves but this does not mean that God doesn't work righteousness in us nor that he doesn't bring to life in us.


The issue is how does the human spirit exist? Does it have existence in it self or does it need God to give it life? Acts 17 tells us the answer about that. We get our life from God for from Him and in Him we have our being. So what you reckon sis would God give us a polluted life or a holy life?

So who lies to those who carry holy life from God? Who steals that life - kills and perverts the good God has given as our in-heritage and/or makes it work for an unjust and dubious purposes? Rev 17-19


Furthermore who carries that sinful life that has squandered Good life and denies the Truth of God's Good Life to be - in contradiction to His Holy Being - perversion of spirit to harbour instead raising an abomination within our inner being?(Daniel 9)

Like the prophet says (Is 57:1-4)

The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.

“But you—come here, you children of a sorceress,
you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!
Who are you mocking?
At whom do you sneer
and stick out your tongue?
Are you not a brood of rebels,
the offspring of liars?

Also ponder on revelation 17:3-6 in relation to the sorceress,

Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

For how could the 144,000 chosen have been killed in our inner world of being if The Bible ain't true in our life? Remember The Word says it is a spiritual book - so everything written therefore is firstly about our spiritual life, or not?

Rev 14:1-5

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Clearly this means that the Bible does teach that within humanity both good and bad lives. But that the Good is killed by the bad - and God's own are denied life by the sinner - who is the offspring of The harlot where unfaithful love shapes our spirit.

However the Bible teaches that when Christ comes into our lives then the 144,000 get top position and through them we reap eternal life for all that dwells within us - for in it we are holy and pure - this is truly awesome!


Let me give you a real life example of how this understanding of The Word works in real life - for then it is much easier to comprehend for we do know about this when we dwell on our inner workings a little deeper.

Here we have a little girl, she loves her mum and holds her in high esteem. This girl has never believed anything wrong about her mum. Her mum is her everything.

However one night she see her mum kill her dad with a big bread knife.

Who and what would have died in this girls heart? And who and what would have found life in place of innocent love?


And who has to die to give life to all such a truthfully loveless reality devastating this young girls life? And who has to save all that the Good Life that died there? Would this not be Hell for God to carry our lives in His Being though it is killing His Good life continually?





For when Christ laid down His life for us - He demonstrated the truth - if you have seen me then you have seen the Father (John 14) and before that He says when you see the abomination in the place he doesn't belong (Matt 24) When I put two and two together then I know I have loveless untruthful life inside my heart - and have been denying and killing Christ's Good Life given to me daily - then I understand that The Bible is right when it says sin is bad and God is hurting it badly - especially if I stay in sin when I can get freed from it.

For sin suppresses the truth - it denies The Truth of God's Love existence within us - but demands God gives existence to our Bad Lives nevertheless.

So this is His awesome Power, this is His awesome Grace. For all of us have being in Him - that means He lays down His life continually - so we can be - untrue and unloving unlike Him to be though we carry His image.

Peace

Revelation 1:5b-8

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[Jeshu]

Is it so surprising that I say that God lays down His life - for us - so we can have existence - and that this would pierce Him badly?

For example;

The Truth is God loves me! I have life in and with Him - the morning angels still sing their song.

Then the lie comes by and says at a painful moment in my life - that God doesn't love me because of that.

I believe the lie doing the hurting - with as consequence - that my Good Life in and with God dies for God's loving truth is denied existence and Bad Life, unhappy, unfulfilled, unloved and burdened down life takes His place inside of me. (Or worse, I kill such painful feelings and real needs within me, and cold heartedly conform to the norm all around and make the most of it - serving the five kings of my flesh ruling and work hard (right hand) and use my mind (forehead) in service to 't numbered existence of The Beast of the earth ruling down here.)

God is denied the Right to B(b)e my life - instead the lie has life - bringing the wicked in ruler-ship over me - installing their dictatorships and imprisoning, oppressing, and killing The Good Life God daily continues to give me - though I live according to the sins of the Jews in the O.T. and in disobedience to the Disciples teachings - He is my life neverheless - for my untrue and loveless existence can only have existence in His blood shed on Golgotha - how I pierce Him doing that? And I do this in real life and real time! His Good Life giving existence to my life in misery - hoping that I will have mercy on Him, myself and others one Day and dump the lie and believe the truth once more and come back into fellowship with Him.

For is it true that God doesn't love me? Is The Lie true and Jesus didn't pay the price - we must as well - I must must do or mustn't do, like always - where is Christ's freedom in this one wonders? and didn't He says it is finished? It looks like the dragon grew his fatally wounded head back permanently - who would be ling then?

So only Faith in God's truth is needed and The Truth will be back on show - for He Truly was, is and will always be Eternal God who loves us all.

..... hoopla my whole miserable self in lies crumbles in a heap, as the oppressed in me leap from joy, and trample my old existence in lies to dust, right before my very eyes, and God's loving truth beams its light over me once more. (Last chapter of the O.T. says it nicely as does Revelation 8-20.)

So when the lie dies out of me - when Jesus comes - much shame at being so silly to believe in lies - when I see with my own eyes how much He has always loved me - my old life of misery disappears completely in the flames of God's wrath, and I glow the brightest Flame praising Him for deliverance, even though I have no life in the truth on show as yet - from now on I work for Him and not slavery down in Babylon and gain eternal life as reward for staying in His Truth from now on.

Would this be different for any of us stuck in lies you think?

1 John 2:1-11

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.

But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.


Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.


Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

 

[Jeshu]

Christ said - love your neighbour as yourself!

Who is going to hell did you say?


So to those brothers and sisters here who seem to want to judge their neighbours - please be warned.

Luke 6:37

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


So please let us take heed to The Word in deed and truthfully do the loving of God's own. Please when will Christians stop judging fallen sinners to hell but rather take the Gospel of salvation to them understanding The Wicked are ruling misery upon God's own - also underneath all that polished and well presented veneer?

Eph 6:10-18

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

 

[Jeshu]

.....

There is no scriptural evidence of "good life" vs "bad life." In fact, all our lives are by nature bad - we are all sinful. I think the error here is in dividing sheep and goats in each spirit, when there is no evidence for that parable being anything but straight-forward Christians vs Non-believers.


....

An Article I once wrote on serving God whole heartedly I think this may explain my position better.



To get to know Jesus in all our heart is The Job we meet down here in our sinful life.

Serving God whole heartedly.

Our being consists of more than the here and now - indeed many moments of self awareness, many different times of personalities traits, of moments in good and in bad. For both when we are awake and when we are asleep our spirit shapes and is being shaped. Though we have lived the past it is still living within us in the present and will influence the future – true image of God to be!

Truly our being is as mysterious and vast as the universe. What I mean to say with this is that our soul makes us up in its entirety, every moment of our existence both good and bad. All these times we ruled ourself with our contemporary and mood shifting sense of self – our I am, interacts with us in everyday life – even if we have forgotten the moments, for in our soul they are written as it were on a 'scroll of remembrance' – and influence our thoughts, choices and decision making processes and builds our sense of self, with shifting shades of light and darkness. We are all children of Time.

If you are anything like me then you will cycle up and down in your faith life. In my Teenage years I was more down on faith then up. Consequently my deeds reflected my spiritual mood. Though I 'served' the Lord in some respects, in that I believed in Him, yet I had major outbursts of living it up, getting drunk, chasing the girls, wildly spending my money and experimenting with sex. Ouch that hurt! That hurt a lot, especially when the mood cycled past and I couldn't get into contact with God no more, had an empty wallet and had made people angry or disappointed with me – or at least that is how I often experienced it.

What I try to say with this is that often we are all divided up inside our heart into many different sections of self, we rule ourselves through different moods, likes and times and consequently make different choices all the time, some paradoxically opposed to the other. As it is in this world so it is often in us. Much division, conflict, wars and rumours of wars, light, darkness, good and bad! In truth we are are woven with many strains, colours and sizes of thread.

Don't you reckon...?

Then what about the times we hate, even ourself, what about those times we are angry and fill ourself up with angry thoughts even about our loved ones? What about racial hatred or social dislikes? What about our fantasies, fears and wants? What about loving loved ones? What about just decisions? Now I haven't even talked about the place the lie and dishonesty has in our life, and please consider all the junk we have stored? (Social, political and religious manipulation made sure of that! (Just think about Hollywood for example, or the forced 'education' of our young.)

As you can see we are complex individuals hopelessly segregated and sometimes completely taken up by the needs and demands of mere flesh, the world and Satan - and consequently torn apart by the forces to be, often almost unrecognisable to who we truly should be – not reflecting God's image and as we know such is called sin!

Not only dwells there all kind of potential wrong within, we also have a 'good self' - truly a whole a clan of attitudes, morals, values and beliefs influencing our decision making processes. How do we rule with our 'good self', our inner king or queen? Do we rule in loving truth? Even the times we are walking through sin? Struggle with God, self or others. Are we trying to annihilate others, denying them the right to be as they are, or deny parts of our own God given personality at such times? Perhaps we rule in the pharisee style? A life full of do and don't dos. Or maybe we don't care much about our not so nice selves and judge ourselves within - and so live fragmented lives. Some of us even turn into full-time slaves of personal desires, wants and dislikes, worldly influences and become Satan's puppet on strings, stuck with burning desires, denial of truth - spiritual genocide within!

Nevertheless we are supposed to govern life, not be a slave to it. Remember, we are allowed to rule with Christ? Mastering life has always been the offer of Christ. Jesus wants us to rule our being in the Spirit of love and truth – both our good and bad times – He wants to set us free from our struggles and stop the internal genocide, and shape our being into newness of life. He wants to do it through rebuilding us in loving truth.

Honestly true! He wants to love our sin out of us and rebuild the lies that make up our own private selves with truth! He wants to make sure that what is opposed to you will benefit you in end. He wants to save you, not bind you to religious or not so religious points of views – not even your own – but grant you true life through the Spirit of loving truth.

Christ invites us to come and bring our complete self to Him, both good and bad and let Him decide what is just, good and right for us. Oh He knows it so much better than we ever could, and patiently teaches us the way we should go. The battles we have then are our own hesitations in letting go of our lives. Indeed inner wrong will set itself up against us. Nevertheless love in/for truth wins the day (Revelation.) This is the right way to battle – to stay in Christ's love and to stay or return into His truth always, so wrongdoing dies out of us, time and again, while loving and truthfulness rebuild us into who we are of old.

For if the truth that Christ died for our sin stands central, then spiritual rest and thankfulness of heart will grow inside of us as a bulwark never shaken, no matter how good or bad our physical life is going, spiritually we shall be at peace.

Can you see that Christ wants to save us from the very forces that conquer our life time and again? Freedom is what Jesus brings and wholeness of inner being is what He teaches us all about. All we need to do is trust our Saviour and surrender our whole hearts to Him. Let His Word and Spirit dwell richly in us so they can transform us into this wonderful newness of life. A life which is learning to walk in truth and in love and so truly be in the image of our Creator, however small in the imprint.

Becoming Christ like is what that means. Christ walked the truth to a tee and loved perfectly well the whole way through. He loved God the Father with His whole heart. He is One with God. So for us to find ourselves in a loving and living relationship with our Heavenly Father we need Jesus to lead us there. The Bible teaches that only the pure shall see God. From ourselves we cannot offer much purity, I found, for we are not like Christ and we, despite our greatest effort, are not pure. I'm assured that nobody can have Christ-likeness in self, but those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ and let themselves be let by His Spirit – the Spirit of Truth who brings us Love, as His greatest gift, or rather brings us unto the Way of Love - as that is the Truth.

 

[Jeshu]

....

We were created and formed in a sinful flesh that lived according to God's plans.
....

There's nothing you can do about this except to wait until you die in the flesh and be forgiven of all your sins.

.....

Thank you for those quotations - it is true The Word is full of promise to those who belong to Him.

I don't agree with a lot with what you say after that though - I will never agree that we are mere stocks and blocks in God's design - like you seem to suggest here. Nor that God will simple wipe our lives away after death and we wont remember our old lives no more - such is unscriptural to the extreme - for then God would have lied all along when He said He was going to save our lives.

At all time God holds out His hand for us to be saved from the moment we do we enter eternal life though - no waiting at all.

For Jesus says -John 4:14

"but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Let me give you an example

God gifts me with faith in The Word!

So now I have already at least one chosen in my spirit, which is from eternal, called 'faith in The Word' (Lets hope I'm faithful and work with my faith instead of pride in the fact I got it.)

Can you see with faith in The word in my spirit - my eternal life has started within - living waters begin flowing through my soul.

However now how much of my daily walk I have in this faith is a completely different story - for I can live my life in my faith in The word - or outside of it - even from moment to moment.:o

And so times of good and bad life come past - some in which I will inherit shame and some in which i will inherit glory! (Rev 21)

It is here we all have our choice though - unlike you say - for we are 100% percent responsible for our own sins - God would never determine that we would make such a choice - we do through our big I and therefore our own freewill - plus at all times we have the choice to repent of our walk outside of The Faith and so enter back into the faith - and therefore Eternal life - at a later stage.

So unlike you say - that all is determined and we are in it for the ride - I know Jesus freed me to make a choice about which side of the ride I'm on - as such happens when I stop eating from that fruit of right and wrong and eat His flesh and drink His blood instead.

 

[Jeshu]

An invitation to The Chosen.

God's Love will not take or will
you to conform to rules or demand
which imprison, enslave, burn or kill you.

God's Love will not pervert what's Good
The Lord loves truthfully Wise and Good.
True Love was, is and always will be Good!

In God's Love you are free to be right!
In His love everything is good proper and kind.
He loves all who love good and true to rule!

His Love is caring, providing, and sharing.
His Love always enjoys and protects good life.
His love rules even when bad life has being in us!

Hear Jesus call - 'Come join up with us all!
Leave whatever ties you down and be free
loving good life with all God's own to be.'

To the rest in your heart God's asks
how long will you tarry in the darkness?
Please leave such bad existence within.

For life must not, no never should, or would, or could,
be forceful, rude, prideful, arrogant, selfish, lustful
or otherwise be untrue to God's loving truth.

Neither should life be hurting or ill,
hungry, oppressed, despised, hated
or otherwise have existence in wrong.

Please hand your Bad Life over to Jesus
Humbly ask for His Good Life back in return
and go love God, self and neighbour with Joy.

The Church knows that Jesus is coming soon
All bad life will be our shameful past then,
so please leave your bad life while you can!

Love

 

[stormdancer0]

Your article is interesting - and beside the point. You are talking about our inability to separate our good impulses from the evil ones. But good or bad, our eternal destiny swings on one decision - do we choose to serve Christ, or the world? Yes, as long as we are here, there is a battle going on in us, the spirit fighting against the flesh. But the war is won when we give our lives over to Christ. We may still fight battles on the way, but we are declared winners by Christ when He takes over Lordship of our lives.

 

[Jeshu]

Your article is interesting - and beside the point. You are talking about our inability to separate our good impulses from the evil ones. But good or bad, our eternal destiny swings on one decision - do we choose to serve Christ, or the world? Yes, as long as we are here, there is a battle going on in us, the spirit fighting against the flesh. But the war is won when we give our lives over to Christ. We may still fight battles on the way, but we are declared winners by Christ when He takes over Lordship of our lives.

Joel 3:14-16

Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.
The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
The LORD will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the heavens will tremble.


What I find so confusing is how after all we discussed below you can say about my article that it is beside the point - surely such is the point?

For anyone can say I choose to serve God and not the world but merely serve religious conviction and not God at all.

It is The Truth in deed that matters not religious choices nor sacrifices!

For a truthfully loving person serves Christ rightfully though he or she doesn't know His Name - proving they know Him by their actions - Romans 2 - but someone who goes to Church and serves the religious ideals of human tradition - judging those not the same as them to hell in their hearts - is serving an abomination - and must still be saved from the evil they have life in.

Also - you always choose to have life in Jesus?

You make no unloving choices?
You choose to not judge anyone but save sinners?
You choose to forgive and give grace to those who are your enemies?
You choose to love God and all His people whole heartedly?
You choose faithfully rightly?
You decide to be right?

Like the Prophet just told us

Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!

Yet why would decision have to be in a valley you think - and with the day of the Lord near - as a day of darkness?

But a heart full of truthful love makes the choice without as much as the need for a decision - simply walking The Way - truly loving God, self and others.

Psalm 40:6-8

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened—
burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Then I said,

“Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”

The inner divisions remain therefore and you making choices for Jesus based on religious convictions cannot be account to mount up to anything at all - only loving our Heavenly Father whole heartedly and your neighbour as yourself can testify that you know of Him - not a choice to serve Him at one stage in your life but truly walking His Way.

So I conclude once more that only having life in The Loving Truth of God is from Eternal

Romans 2:12-16

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Biff]

A person can be sincerely telling the truth -- OR -- they can sincerly believe that they are telling the truth all the while being deceived! For instance some obvious deceptions are when we believe that Jesus died for our sins, but that He never rose up from the dead. Let us examine this whole area of "Discernment" and see why this is so?

I believe that it is simply because there is a lack of discernment, and the reason that there is a lack of discernment is because God; in His word, either spoke out against it or ignored it altogether. Some may seem to have discernment in other areas, and it could be that they believe only what their hearts want them to believe it, even though God never said it. But do they know Scriptures as Jeremiah 17:9 (The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?) - better yet, do they Believe what God says?

I've got to say: "IF" we love Him, then we are going to keep His words. John 14:23 That's the main reason - We love Him who first loved us! 1 John 4:19. IF we do love Him above all, then we will keep His words. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 Tim 2:15. The term: "Rightly Dividing" simply means: "To make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly"!

A Story: "I know of a person who seemed to be a strong Christian, but who had let their gaurd down, and as they became momentarily confused (concerning the way of salvation) by someone who professed how much THEY loved Jesus. This person didn't know what to make of all this, because they sounded so -- SINCERE, and on this basis allowed themselves to be sucked in (duped)! This "Jesus" was all they knew, and they wanted this person to believe and join with them on the basis of their own sincerity alone towards Christ. Because this person didn't take into account the possibility of deception, they were caught up with these "Sincere Christians" who were continuously associating themselves with sexual deviants and fornicators (by living with them; not doing what they did of course, but becoming their friend), as they all participated in yoga lessons, witchcraft, and the like, thinking little or nothing of it."

But how can this be??? I asked myself. How can any Christian who professes Christ do this??? For example: How can someone who says they really believe in God; who sincerely love Him; and who are going to be with the Lord when they die, continue to live-in sin with those who pracyice fornication, regardless of any excuse they used for their doing so??? What the duped person needed was to simply use the discernment that God gave them in order to rightly determine (i.e. "Judge") where this persons words (i.e. their fruit) were coming from, and discern whether ot not they were coming from God's love, or from self-love.

Most people hear what they want to hear: "Don't judge others and you won't be judged." Matthew 7:1 But that is not what it's saying... because they don't read it and weigh it with the whole word of God. He says it must be based on the truth, not on what seems to be the truth. The whole gist of my message is to get you to, and make sure you are judging RIGHTLY! The scriptures are replete that we must judge others... Matthew 7:2; Luke 12:57; John 5:30; John 7:24; John 8:16, 26; John 12:48; Acts 4:19; Acts 13:46; Romans 2:27; Romans 14:13; 1 Corinthians 5:12; 1 Corinthians 6:2-5; 1 Corinthians 10:15; Corinthians 11:13, 31; 1 Corinthians 14:29; 2 Corinthians 5:14.

What these people (unbelievers) were doing was to take Jesus as Savior yet refuse to do what He says as Lord! Here is all the proof we need. They take half a Christ, which is none at all! They fit these scriptures - Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

We cannot set aside our "judgement" of others and of where they are coming from, just because they SAY they are Christian. Rather we must judge them on the basis of whether or not they are keeping Jesus'/God's words. That is the basis for "judging" them. We are NOT to judge our brother in Christ, but first we have to find out who our brothers are? Then once we know that the Spirit of Truth resides in them we will no longer have to judge them (or discern where they're coming from), for then we'll know... They've already been judged, found guilty, buried and raised to new life.

There is right and a wrong way to judge:
If you judge others and leave yourself in it somewhere (i.e. "I" wouldn't do that, or "I am" better than that, etc.) then your judgement is false, and you will be judged by God according to the way you have judged others.
If you should judge rightly - (John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.) - knowing and using the whole word of God, then it prooves that you are dead and OUT of the way, and that you are coming from the living word of God instead, having no ax to grind and nothing to defend of your own. You have nothing of your own to believe or defend (no matter what it is), because you are Dead, put to death by the cross of Christ!!!

I cannot express more concern for your spiritual welfare than I have given you here. No matter who or what you believe, make sure that it's all lining up with the word of God.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 

[Jeshu]

A person can be sincerely telling the truth -- OR -- they can sincerly believe that they are telling the truth all the while being deceived! For instance some obvious deceptions are when we believe that Jesus died for our sins, but that He never rose up from the dead. Let us examine this whole area of "Discernment" and see why this is so?

I believe that it is simply because there is a lack of discernment, and the reason that there is a lack of discernment is because God; in His word, either spoke out against it or ignored it altogether. Some may seem to have discernment in other areas, and it could be that they believe only what their hearts want them to believe it, even though God never said it. But do they know Scriptures as Jeremiah 17:9 (The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?) - better yet, do they Believe what God says?

I've got to say: "IF" we love Him, then we are going to keep His words. John 14:23 That's the main reason - We love Him who first loved us! 1 John 4:19. IF we do love Him above all, then we will keep His words. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 Tim 2:15. The term: "Rightly Dividing" simply means: "To make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly"!

A Story: "I know of a person who seemed to be a strong Christian, but who had let their gaurd down, and as they became momentarily confused (concerning the way of salvation) by someone who professed how much THEY loved Jesus. This person didn't know what to make of all this, because they sounded so -- SINCERE, and on this basis allowed themselves to be sucked in (duped)! This "Jesus" was all they knew, and they wanted this person to believe and join with them on the basis of their own sincerity alone towards Christ. Because this person didn't take into account the possibility of deception, they were caught up with these "Sincere Christians" who were continuously associating themselves with sexual deviants and fornicators (by living with them; not doing what they did of course, but becoming their friend), as they all participated in yoga lessons, witchcraft, and the like, thinking little or nothing of it."

But how can this be??? I asked myself. How can any Christian who professes Christ do this??? For example: How can someone who says they really believe in God; who sincerely love Him; and who are going to be with the Lord when they die, continue to live-in sin with those who pracyice fornication, regardless of any excuse they used for their doing so??? What the duped person needed was to simply use the discernment that God gave them in order to rightly determine (i.e. "Judge") where this persons words (i.e. their fruit) were coming from, and discern whether ot not they were coming from God's love, or from self-love.

Most people hear what they want to hear: "Don't judge others and you won't be judged." Matthew 7:1 But that is not what it's saying... because they don't read it and weigh it with the whole word of God. He says it must be based on the truth, not on what seems to be the truth. The whole gist of my message is to get you to, and make sure you are judging RIGHTLY! The scriptures are replete that we must judge others... Matthew 7:2; Luke 12:57; John 5:30; John 7:24; John 8:16, 26; John 12:48; Acts 4:19; Acts 13:46; Romans 2:27; Romans 14:13; 1 Corinthians 5:12; 1 Corinthians 6:2-5; 1 Corinthians 10:15; Corinthians 11:13, 31; 1 Corinthians 14:29; 2 Corinthians 5:14.

What these people (unbelievers) were doing was to take Jesus as Savior yet refuse to do what He says as Lord! Here is all the proof we need. They take half a Christ, which is none at all! They fit these scriptures - Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

We cannot set aside our "judgement" of others and of where they are coming from, just because they SAY they are Christian. Rather we must judge them on the basis of whether or not they are keeping Jesus'/God's words. That is the basis for "judging" them. We are NOT to judge our brother in Christ, but first we have to find out who our brothers are? Then once we know that the Spirit of Truth resides in them we will no longer have to judge them (or discern where they're coming from), for then we'll know... They've already been judged, found guilty, buried and raised to new life.

There is right and a wrong way to judge:
If you judge others and leave yourself in it somewhere (i.e. "I" wouldn't do that, or "I am" better than that, etc.) then your judgement is false, and you will be judged by God according to the way you have judged others.
If you should judge rightly - (John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.) - knowing and using the whole word of God, then it prooves that you are dead and OUT of the way, and that you are coming from the living word of God instead, having no ax to grind and nothing to defend of your own. You have nothing of your own to believe or defend (no matter what it is), because you are Dead, put to death by the cross of Christ!!!

I cannot express more concern for your spiritual welfare than I have given you here. No matter who or what you believe, make sure that it's all lining up with the word of God.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Thank you


That is an awesome post brother - though seeing you are very concerned for my welfare you obviously don't agree with me - for whatever reason this may be - but I do mostly agree with you - especially about The Bible having to be served truly and not what others say about it, or sinful minds want it to say - but what it really teaches.