Chosen or Elected?

[Jeshu]

Blessings and love - that this may encourage you as it has me.

(I hope I'm clear - I do know I have tried to do this.)




Dear brothers and sisters I found that only a critical analysis of The word gives the right answer about God's election - though it is little known down here - for I read up almost all theories and so missed what The Word truly does has to say about all this so my inner misery about those beloved in me so 'lost' and 'damned' could finally be laid to Rest.

Please feel free to correct, add or subtract with The Word and in Love as you see fit.



In 1 Tim 4:9-10 God told me the truth I loved hearing best!

This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

In my opinion these few Words do away with all the debate about Christ's salvation for all God's children and show us deeper glimpse of God's amazing Salvation.

Over the years theologians have put much in front and behind the Word on display here - yet I believe its best to accept - The Word - in the Spirit of - Love, Faith and Hope - and not let our by sin darkened minds send God's own back to Hell or try and save the wilful sinners doing all the damage! As such has added - yes piled on - to our Heavenly Father and Brother unbelievable agony, I'm utterly assured of that.

For the Word says that - those who sin will die - not those who don't transgress God's loving truth - or repent of bad life seeking His Good Life instead! (Ezekiel 18) The Word also says that God's Mercies are New every Day - its best to cover our life in sin with Him.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I understood from Christ's teachings that the righteous don't need a doctor - so if I love my mum and dad honestly and sincerely why should I be afraid of illness? Chosen by default - as Truthful Love is always His Seed within - so surely I'm one of God's own - as my fruit testify about Him?

So all who have life in God's Loving Truth can be assured that all imperfections Christ died for so we may be, however small, a child of His at least in this part our life.(Can you see The Word (Hebrews 4:12) cutting here - and can see those Sheep (Matt 25) in me?)

Yet two minutes down the road I see my neighbour who was nasty to me the other day and I haven't forgiven him his trespasses and in my heart I dislike this person and don't want to love him at all but fill myself up with Satan's spirit heeding/eating those horrible accusations against my neighbour and so have I have unholy life in doomed lying lovelessness!

So now The Word now says;

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Oh boy I have done it now - not good but bad ruling - untruthful and unloving thoughts and feelings shaping my spirit. Salvation is needed desperately for that side in me, for clearly I am in wrong and not God's at all when I do that. (Can you see The Word (Hebrews 4:12-13) cutting here - slaying those Goats (Rev 19) in me?)



So like that - unloving and untruthful - I'm not saved at all - no matter if I'm a believer or not - such sinful being in me must go whatever happens!

Being a believer in Christ offers me that way - for I can repent of my sin - die to my unloving and untruthful spirit - and accepting forgiveness and true love back into this part of me. Like Paul says to Timothy - God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe - saves me. (Please read Ezekiel 18 if you don't believe what is written here.)

So yes it is clear as crystal all Humanity is saved - for God's Spirit gives all of us life - Acts 17 - however unholy life killing holy life - kills Good Life - Jesus clearly tells us this - dying on that cursed tree - to show us what we do to The Father when The Lie we serve Kills The Truth of His Love right within us.

So all believing and unbelieving people will die to his or her bad life for killing their good life within

For someone who doesn't have life in Jesus however - their Good Life is raised into Newness of life by Christ upstairs - which in effect was killed by them the wilful sinner actively killing God's Good Life in them. So at physically death - when sinful flesh returns to dust - Christ has already got true human in Heaven with Him.

The wilful sinning parts of such a lost human spirit will be gnashing his or her teeth and biting tongues, for having caused Good Life so much harm - even within themselves - and will surly miss out on Christ's Eternal Good Life - for they are truthfully Bad Life - which no true person would ever want back again - and so un-repented sinners will loose all the Good they still enjoyed in their unholy life - to their Good Life Upstairs with Jesus and us all - and receive their own unholy deeds as fuel for the flames! (Goats Ending!)

However for those who have faith in Christ - things look very much better than that. For The Bible teaches that out of the two - which is us humans in both Good and Bad - Jesus made one!

Eph 2:14

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

This is what we receive as believers - our selfish sinful nature is replaced - when we live a life of Faith, love and hope - and we become submissive to God's loving truth instead of rebellious!

And so beloved what should not have been - us in shaped by sinful spirit - now can truly can be - for such is God's election - as Hosea explains detailed like anything - and also as Jesus confirms teaches that those who loose their lives for Him shall gain it - but those who try and save their live shall surely loose it.

Can you see we have both those Sheep and Goat within our inner being! The sheep are chosen the goats not - for one will be taken one will be left behind. (Matt 25)

So I fully believe that The Word teaches that wilful sinners in usthose within who keep doing untruthful and unloving things are always going to die and get punished for what they did - and as such will NEVER be saved like that - no matter how hard they try to preserve their unholy lives - even being faithfully religious - or doing good works all the time - will not save - unregenerate inner being. (Jude)

So for those of us God believing people yet also sinners - who dare to have faith in Jesus and lay down our bad life to receive His Good Life - and with Christ's grace forgive themselves and their neighbours as well - their sinful deeds - and so keep resisting The Wicked doing the wilful sinning and dress themselves with Christ Loving Truthful Spirit instead - until He Comes - they alone collect title of both being Chosen and Elected - no none else inherits eternal bliss but - true humanity ALL God's Rightful Children - those who leave their bad life behind and die to their big I and Satan trying to master them through it - and remain loving truthful and child like instead.


God's peace on you all.


(All you Sheep Please Eat Him!)

Matt 25:34-40

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'




"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

[razeontherock]

Can anybody else see the genius in this? These are some very difficult things to try to verbalize, but here he spells them out more clearly than anyone else I've ever seen be able to do.

 

[stormdancer0]

Sorry - I'm tired and mentally exhausted, but I don't get what's trying to be said.

 

[Jeshu]

Sorry - I'm tired and mentally exhausted, but I don't get what's trying to be said.

Its fine dear, like you said mental exhaustion is not the time to read something like this, a clear mind will help a lot I'm sure.

Please if you like try reading Psalm 119 1-40 if you think the whole is to long) - and see if you agree with that and then see if that helps you understand what I'm trying to say below. I know it did for me.

Have a blessed day.


Psalm 119

' Aleph

Blessed are they whose ways are blameless,
who walk according to the law of the LORD. Blessed are they who keep his statutes
and seek him with all their heart.
They do nothing wrong;
they walk in his ways.
You have laid down precepts
that are to be fully obeyed.
Oh, that my ways were steadfast
in obeying your decrees!
Then I would not be put to shame
when I consider all your commands.
I will praise you with an upright heart
as I learn your righteous laws.
I will obey your decrees;
do not utterly forsake me.
b Beth

How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word. I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.
I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you.
Praise be to you, O LORD;
teach me your decrees.
With my lips I recount
all the laws that come from your mouth.
I rejoice in following your statutes
as one rejoices in great riches.
I meditate on your precepts
and consider your ways.
I delight in your decrees;
I will not neglect your word.
g Gimel

Do good to your servant, and I will live;
I will obey your word. Open my eyes that I may see
wonderful things in your law.
I am a stranger on earth;
do not hide your commands from me.
My soul is consumed with longing
for your laws at all times.
You rebuke the arrogant, who are cursed
and who stray from your commands.
Remove from me scorn and contempt,
for I keep your statutes.
Though rulers sit together and slander me,
your servant will meditate on your decrees.
Your statutes are my delight;
they are my counselors.
d Daleth

I am laid low in the dust;
preserve my life according to your word. I recounted my ways and you answered me;
teach me your decrees.
Let me understand the teaching of your precepts;
then I will meditate on your wonders.
My soul is weary with sorrow;
strengthen me according to your word.
Keep me from deceitful ways;
be gracious to me through your law.
I have chosen the way of truth;
I have set my heart on your laws.
I hold fast to your statutes, O LORD;
do not let me be put to shame.
I run in the path of your commands,
for you have set my heart free.
h He

Teach me, O LORD, to follow your decrees;
then I will keep them to the end. Give me understanding, and I will keep your law
and obey it with all my heart.
Direct me in the path of your commands,
for there I find delight.
Turn my heart toward your statutes
and not toward selfish gain.
Turn my eyes away from worthless things;
preserve my life according to your word.
Fulfill your promise to your servant,
so that you may be feared.
Take away the disgrace I dread,
for your laws are good.
How I long for your precepts!
Preserve my life in your righteousness.

 

[Jeshu]

I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:



"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
"Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the men of Judah and people of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. O LORD, we and our kings, our princes and our fathers are covered with shame because we have sinned against you. The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; we have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.
"Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. The LORD did not hesitate to bring the disaster upon us, for the LORD our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.
"Now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. O Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our fathers have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.
"Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name."

 

[Shulamite]

Sovereign Election

Rev. Gise J. Van Baren Election as a doctrine of the church is often either little understood, or emphatically contradicted. There is either ignorance of this truth, or a deliberate misunderstanding of it.

What is the scriptural truth of election? We could define election as God's eternal, sovereign, gracious decree by which He chooses a church as the body of Christ, with all of its individual members, each in his own place, to eternal salvation and glory.
Let us examine the various parts of this definition more closely.
In the first place, election is that decree of God by which He chooses a definite number of individuals to salvation and glory. God is not uncertain of who will be saved and will spend eternity with Him in heaven. He knows each of His people by name, since He has chosen each of them; and those names He has recorded in the Book of Life. Scripture speaks of election this way in Acts 13:48: "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Again, concerning Jeremiah we read (1:5), "And before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Now I know that this applies to Jeremiah in particular, but it is very evident in this passage that God did sanctify him and did prepare him before he was ever born. God chose Jeremiah. Again, we read in Romans 9:13, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." That is not a n indefinite number, but God pointed out definite individuals. Before they were ever born, God said, "I have loved Jacob; I have hated Esau."
In the second place, the doctrine of election teaches that the members of the church are chosen as a body of Jesus Christ, with each member in his unique place. There are illustrations in Scripture which present the church as a body. The apostle Paul speaks of that church in I Corinthians 12:12: "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." Now a body is a living organism. One cannot add members to that body or take any away. As soon as one tries that, he has an incomplete body or a monstrosity. A body normally has ten fingers, two hands, two arms, two eyes, one nose--that is all. Take away any of these members, or add to them, and one does not have a complete body anymore. God also chooses unto Himself a church as the body of Christ, that is, individual members each in his own particular place in that body. God has a place for each member, each elect of God, in that body. One's place may not always seem very important in man's eyes, but it is his unique place. Just as the little finger is an insignificant member, it is neverthele ss necessary in order to make the body complete; that finger has a place and function. So too, the truth of election emphasizes the fact that God chooses each individual member for a specific place in Christ's body -- and that place he must and will fill.
In the third place, election is centered in Jesus Christ. One can never speak of election apart from Him. We read in Ephesians 1:4, "According as He hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world...." That is the truth one finds throughout Scripture. God chooses His people as members of Christ.
In the fourth place, election teaches that God chooses a people unto eternal salvation and glory. God does not simply choose, but He has an end or goal in mind. That eternal goal was that He would bring His people to heaven. I quote, for instance, from Romans 8:29-30: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified." So the final purpose of that eternal election whereby God chooses His people is that He may glorify them through Christ to the honor of His own Name.
Finally, election takes place in eternity. It is not an action taken only in time. It is an act of God that took place in His counsel or plan before time even began. Consider once again the passage of Ephesians 1:4: "According as He hath chosen us in (Christ) before the foundation of the world..." What does this mean? This phrase suggests that God chose before there was any creation, before there was time or space. Before the foundation of the earth, there is only God. He has chosen, then, a people in Christ from all eternity in His counsel. This is the testimony of Scripture.
In connection with the truth of election, the question is often asked, "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform.
Sad to say, however, this is not the thinking of many today. The view that seems to have swept the church world of our day is that election is dependent on the will of man and not God. Election depends on the act of man in accepting Christ. God chooses those who first choose Him. This view has its roots in the Netherlands, and was first propounded in the year 1610. Its most influential proponent at that time was a man named James Arminius. Since his time this error concerning election has become synonymous with his name. It is called Arminianism.
Arminius himself wrote concerning this view of election, "But it (election) signifies the decree by which God determines to bestow salvation on someone, then Faith foreseen is prior to election. For as believers alone are saved, so only believers are predestined to salvation. But the Scriptures know no Elect, by which God precisely and absolutely has determined to save anyone without having first considered him as a believer. For such an election would be at variance with the decree by which he hath determined to save none but believers" (Writings of Arminius, Vol. I, page 380).
Obviously, Arminianism, when it speaks of election, speaks of it as conditional. Arminianism will not say that God elects, and therefore we believe; but it says that God elects those whom He foresees will believe. Arminianism maintains that election is dependent ultimately upon a positive response by man. When man accepts Christ, and perseveres in that, then God says, "I will elect you." Perhaps this idea of Arminianism can be illustrated. Suppose one were to place before you a weight of 1,000 pounds and were to command you to lift that 1,000 pound weight above your head. You would rightly say, "I can not." But were one to erect a system of pulleys with a rope, attach the rope firmly to that weight, then say again, "Lift that weight," now you would no longer be able to say, "I can not." Rather, you must now say either, "I will," or, "I won't." Obviously, it is now within your power to lift that weight. It is in this way that the Arminian also views the sinner. When man fell, he could do nothing. He could not accept Christ. He could not believe. But then God bestowed upon all men a certain grace (comparable to the system of pulleys in the illustration), so that all men have within them the power to believe if they will. But if they refuse, they are forever lost.
What must one say of this teaching of Arminianism? It ought to be clear that Arminianism essentially denies the sovereignty of God. That God is Sovereign means simply that God is God: He rules over heaven and earth. He will never relinquish His power to any creature. He will direct all things according to His sovereign purpose. God rules. The view of Arminianism denies this. An Arminian will insist that he too believes that the sinner is saved only by grace. But do not overlook the fact that, according to Arminianism, every sinner has this grace of God. What then makes one man to differ from another? Not God's grace, but the will of man which either uses or refuses God's grace. One exercises his will for Christ, another against Christ. The final determination as to who is elect rests then upon man's act. Such a teaching denies the sovereignty of God, for then the Sovereign, infinite, eternal God must sit in His heavens and await the decision of m an in order to find out who will and who will not inherit His Kingdom. That is a terrible error.
Calvinism insists upon the Scriptural truth that God unconditionally elects a people unto Himself from all eternity. Not only John Calvin, but also the earlier church fathers, insisted upon the same thing. St. Augustine, 354-420, maintained that: "Faith, therefore, from its beginning to its perfection is the gift of God. And that this gift is bestowed on some and not on others, who will deny but he who would fight against the most manifest testimonies of the Scripture? But why faith is not given to all ought not to concern the believer, who knows that all men by the sin of one came into must just condemnation. But why God delivers one from condemnation and not another belongs to His inscrutable judgments. And 'His ways are past finding out.' And if it be investigated and inquired how it is that each receiver of faith is deemed of God worthy to receive such a gift, there are not wanting those who will say, 'It is by their human will.' But we say that it is by grace, or Divine predestination."
Augustine's view was firmly founded on Scripture. Throughout, Scripture teaches that election is not conditioned upon any work or act of man. Acts 13:48 states, "For as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Now, which is first: belief or ordination? Plainly the latter. Or we read in John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you, that you should go forth and bring forth fruit...." And in I John 4:10: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." Election is surely unconditional according to all the teachings of Scripture.
Do you find comfort in such a truth? Some have insisted that this doctrine provides no comfort. For, say some, if one believes election, then the result will be that he becomes very careless and profane on this earth. If God eternally determined that a person is going to heaven, then what difference does it make what he does? If he wants to sin, he will be saved regardless. Though he do no good works, he will be saved anyway. Thus have many falsely presented this truth of election!
But such is a distortion of this doctrine. It is true: God has freely, eternally, sovereignly determined that His people will enter into glory. Among that people is numbered the thief on the cross -- a most horrible sinner. Among them is numbered Peter who denied Christ three times. Among them is numbered ourselves -- also terrible sinners. But does the doctrine of election allow one to sin if he pleases? Scripture teaches that God has chosen us in order that we should be holy and without blame (Eph. 1:4). See also Ephesians 2:10. Election produces fruit: where there is no fruit of righteousness, there is no evidence of election. Woe to the person who dares to say, "I sin because it does not make any difference -- I am already either elect or reprobate." To paraphrase words of Christ, it will be more tolerable in the day of judgment for one who never knew the truth of election, than for one who knew it and used it as an excuse to sin!
The sad situation today is that many Reformed men what to hide this doctrine. These insist that it is too difficult for the common people -- and one surely must never speak of it on the mission field. But Scripture never hides the truth of election -- it is plainly taught. In fact, Paul writes of it in detail to the churches of Rome and Ephesus especially. These churches were composed largely of Gentiles who had never had contact with the Word of God before. They were taught of election. If it was not too difficult then, ought it to be too difficult today for the people of our educated society?
How about yourself? Are you one of God's elect? That question has troubled many people. Are you concerned about your election -- truly concerned? The reprobate wicked never care whether or not they are elect. These only deny all of God's Word. But if you are concerned about your election, then you give evidence already in your life and heart of the fruit of election.
Just a few more questions. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you love His church and His truth? Do you hate all of your own sin? Then there is really no question, is there? You see within you the fruit and proof of election. You are still a sinner as are all God's people. Sometimes we wonder, "How could God choose one such as I?" Yet the fruits of election are evident. If you believe, you have the evidence that God has eternally chosen you in Christ. He did not choose you because you believe, but your belief is the evidence and proof that He has chosen you. Do you believe? Then blessed are you, for yours too is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jeshu]

Sovereign Election

Rev. Gise J. Van Baren Election as a doctrine of the church is often either little understood, or emphatically contradicted. There is either ignorance of this truth, or a deliberate misunderstanding of it.

What is the scriptural truth of election? We could define election as God's eternal, sovereign, gracious decree by which He chooses a church as the body of Christ, with all of its individual members, each in his own place, to eternal salvation and glory.
Let us examine the various parts of this definition more closely.
In the first place, election is that decree of God by which He chooses a definite number of individuals to salvation and glory. God is not uncertain of who will be saved and will spend eternity with Him in heaven. He knows each of His people by name, since He has chosen each of them; and those names He has recorded in the Book of Life. Scripture speaks of election this way in Acts 13:48: "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Again, concerning Jeremiah we read (1:5), "And before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Now I know that this applies to Jeremiah in particular, but it is very evident in this passage that God did sanctify him and did prepare him before he was ever born. God chose Jeremiah. Again, we read in Romans 9:13, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." That is not a n indefinite number, but God pointed out definite individuals. Before they were ever born, God said, "I have loved Jacob; I have hated Esau."
In the second place, the doctrine of election teaches that the members of the church are chosen as a body of Jesus Christ, with each member in his unique place. There are illustrations in Scripture which present the church as a body. The apostle Paul speaks of that church in I Corinthians 12:12: "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." Now a body is a living organism. One cannot add members to that body or take any away. As soon as one tries that, he has an incomplete body or a monstrosity. A body normally has ten fingers, two hands, two arms, two eyes, one nose--that is all. Take away any of these members, or add to them, and one does not have a complete body anymore. God also chooses unto Himself a church as the body of Christ, that is, individual members each in his own particular place in that body. God has a place for each member, each elect of God, in that body. One's place may not always seem very important in man's eyes, but it is his unique place. Just as the little finger is an insignificant member, it is neverthele ss necessary in order to make the body complete; that finger has a place and function. So too, the truth of election emphasizes the fact that God chooses each individual member for a specific place in Christ's body -- and that place he must and will fill.
In the third place, election is centered in Jesus Christ. One can never speak of election apart from Him. We read in Ephesians 1:4, "According as He hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world...." That is the truth one finds throughout Scripture. God chooses His people as members of Christ.
In the fourth place, election teaches that God chooses a people unto eternal salvation and glory. God does not simply choose, but He has an end or goal in mind. That eternal goal was that He would bring His people to heaven. I quote, for instance, from Romans 8:29-30: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified." So the final purpose of that eternal election whereby God chooses His people is that He may glorify them through Christ to the honor of His own Name.
Finally, election takes place in eternity. It is not an action taken only in time. It is an act of God that took place in His counsel or plan before time even began. Consider once again the passage of Ephesians 1:4: "According as He hath chosen us in (Christ) before the foundation of the world..." What does this mean? This phrase suggests that God chose before there was any creation, before there was time or space. Before the foundation of the earth, there is only God. He has chosen, then, a people in Christ from all eternity in His counsel. This is the testimony of Scripture.
In connection with the truth of election, the question is often asked, "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform.
Sad to say, however, this is not the thinking of many today. The view that seems to have swept the church world of our day is that election is dependent on the will of man and not God. Election depends on the act of man in accepting Christ. God chooses those who first choose Him. This view has its roots in the Netherlands, and was first propounded in the year 1610. Its most influential proponent at that time was a man named James Arminius. Since his time this error concerning election has become synonymous with his name. It is called Arminianism.
Arminius himself wrote concerning this view of election, "But it (election) signifies the decree by which God determines to bestow salvation on someone, then Faith foreseen is prior to election. For as believers alone are saved, so only believers are predestined to salvation. But the Scriptures know no Elect, by which God precisely and absolutely has determined to save anyone without having first considered him as a believer. For such an election would be at variance with the decree by which he hath determined to save none but believers" (Writings of Arminius, Vol. I, page 380).
Obviously, Arminianism, when it speaks of election, speaks of it as conditional. Arminianism will not say that God elects, and therefore we believe; but it says that God elects those whom He foresees will believe. Arminianism maintains that election is dependent ultimately upon a positive response by man. When man accepts Christ, and perseveres in that, then God says, "I will elect you." Perhaps this idea of Arminianism can be illustrated. Suppose one were to place before you a weight of 1,000 pounds and were to command you to lift that 1,000 pound weight above your head. You would rightly say, "I can not." But were one to erect a system of pulleys with a rope, attach the rope firmly to that weight, then say again, "Lift that weight," now you would no longer be able to say, "I can not." Rather, you must now say either, "I will," or, "I won't." Obviously, it is now within your power to lift that weight. It is in this way that the Arminian also views the sinner. When man fell, he could do nothing. He could not accept Christ. He could not believe. But then God bestowed upon all men a certain grace (comparable to the system of pulleys in the illustration), so that all men have within them the power to believe if they will. But if they refuse, they are forever lost.
What must one say of this teaching of Arminianism? It ought to be clear that Arminianism essentially denies the sovereignty of God. That God is Sovereign means simply that God is God: He rules over heaven and earth. He will never relinquish His power to any creature. He will direct all things according to His sovereign purpose. God rules. The view of Arminianism denies this. An Arminian will insist that he too believes that the sinner is saved only by grace. But do not overlook the fact that, according to Arminianism, every sinner has this grace of God. What then makes one man to differ from another? Not God's grace, but the will of man which either uses or refuses God's grace. One exercises his will for Christ, another against Christ. The final determination as to who is elect rests then upon man's act. Such a teaching denies the sovereignty of God, for then the Sovereign, infinite, eternal God must sit in His heavens and await the decision of m an in order to find out who will and who will not inherit His Kingdom. That is a terrible error.
Calvinism insists upon the Scriptural truth that God unconditionally elects a people unto Himself from all eternity. Not only John Calvin, but also the earlier church fathers, insisted upon the same thing. St. Augustine, 354-420, maintained that: "Faith, therefore, from its beginning to its perfection is the gift of God. And that this gift is bestowed on some and not on others, who will deny but he who would fight against the most manifest testimonies of the Scripture? But why faith is not given to all ought not to concern the believer, who knows that all men by the sin of one came into must just condemnation. But why God delivers one from condemnation and not another belongs to His inscrutable judgments. And 'His ways are past finding out.' And if it be investigated and inquired how it is that each receiver of faith is deemed of God worthy to receive such a gift, there are not wanting those who will say, 'It is by their human will.' But we say that it is by grace, or Divine predestination."
Augustine's view was firmly founded on Scripture. Throughout, Scripture teaches that election is not conditioned upon any work or act of man. Acts 13:48 states, "For as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Now, which is first: belief or ordination? Plainly the latter. Or we read in John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you, that you should go forth and bring forth fruit...." And in I John 4:10: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." Election is surely unconditional according to all the teachings of Scripture.
Do you find comfort in such a truth? Some have insisted that this doctrine provides no comfort. For, say some, if one believes election, then the result will be that he becomes very careless and profane on this earth. If God eternally determined that a person is going to heaven, then what difference does it make what he does? If he wants to sin, he will be saved regardless. Though he do no good works, he will be saved anyway. Thus have many falsely presented this truth of election!
But such is a distortion of this doctrine. It is true: God has freely, eternally, sovereignly determined that His people will enter into glory. Among that people is numbered the thief on the cross -- a most horrible sinner. Among them is numbered Peter who denied Christ three times. Among them is numbered ourselves -- also terrible sinners. But does the doctrine of election allow one to sin if he pleases? Scripture teaches that God has chosen us in order that we should be holy and without blame (Eph. 1:4). See also Ephesians 2:10. Election produces fruit: where there is no fruit of righteousness, there is no evidence of election. Woe to the person who dares to say, "I sin because it does not make any difference -- I am already either elect or reprobate." To paraphrase words of Christ, it will be more tolerable in the day of judgment for one who never knew the truth of election, than for one who knew it and used it as an excuse to sin!
The sad situation today is that many Reformed men what to hide this doctrine. These insist that it is too difficult for the common people -- and one surely must never speak of it on the mission field. But Scripture never hides the truth of election -- it is plainly taught. In fact, Paul writes of it in detail to the churches of Rome and Ephesus especially. These churches were composed largely of Gentiles who had never had contact with the Word of God before. They were taught of election. If it was not too difficult then, ought it to be too difficult today for the people of our educated society?
How about yourself? Are you one of God's elect? That question has troubled many people. Are you concerned about your election -- truly concerned? The reprobate wicked never care whether or not they are elect. These only deny all of God's Word. But if you are concerned about your election, then you give evidence already in your life and heart of the fruit of election.
Just a few more questions. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you love His church and His truth? Do you hate all of your own sin? Then there is really no question, is there? You see within you the fruit and proof of election. You are still a sinner as are all God's people. Sometimes we wonder, "How could God choose one such as I?" Yet the fruits of election are evident. If you believe, you have the evidence that God has eternally chosen you in Christ. He did not choose you because you believe, but your belief is the evidence and proof that He has chosen you. Do you believe? Then blessed are you, for yours too is the kingdom of heaven.

Dearly beloved of The Lord only The Word applied in love, I don't want to discuss anything else on this Thread, in particularly not those things that deny Christ the right to save The Word from their sins.

Thank you.

 

[Azureknight 773]

Blessings and love - that this may encourage you as it has me.

(I hope I'm clear - I do know I have tried to do this.)




Dear brothers and sisters I found that only a critical analysis of The word gives the right answer about God's election - though it is little known down here - for I read up almost all theories and so missed what The Word truly does has to say about all this so my inner misery about those beloved in me so 'lost' and 'damned' could finally be laid to Rest.

Please feel free to correct, add or subtract with The Word and in Love as you see fit.



In 1 Tim 4:9-10 God told me the truth I loved hearing best!

This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

In my opinion these few Words do away with all the debate about Christ's salvation for all God's children and show us deeper glimpse of God's amazing Salvation.

Over the years theologians have put much in front and behind the Word on display here - yet I believe its best to accept - The Word - in the Spirit of - Love, Faith and Hope - and not let our by sin darkened minds send God's own back to Hell or try and save the wilful sinners doing all the damage! As such has added - yes piled on - to our Heavenly Father and Brother unbelievable agony, I'm utterly assured of that.

For the Word says that - those who sin will die - not those who don't transgress God's loving truth - or repent of bad life seeking His Good Life instead! (Ezekiel 18) The Word also says that God's Mercies are New every Day - its best to cover our life in sin with Him.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I understood from Christ's teachings that the righteous don't need a doctor - so if I love my mum and dad honestly and sincerely why should I be afraid of illness? Chosen by default - as Truthful Love is always His Seed within - so surely I'm one of God's own - as my fruit testify about Him?

So all who have life in God's Loving Truth can be assured that all imperfections Christ died for so we may be, however small, a child of His at least in this part our life.(Can you see The Word (Hebrews 4:12) cutting here - and can see those Sheep (Matt 25) in me?)

Yet two minutes down the road I see my neighbour who was nasty to me the other day and I haven't forgiven him his trespasses and in my heart I dislike this person and don't want to love him at all but fill myself up with Satan's spirit heeding/eating those horrible accusations against my neighbour and so have I have unholy life in doomed lying lovelessness!

So now The Word now says;

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Oh boy I have done it now - not good but bad ruling - untruthful and unloving thoughts and feelings shaping my spirit. Salvation is needed desperately for that side in me, for clearly I am in wrong and not God's at all when I do that. (Can you see The Word (Hebrews 4:12-13) cutting here - slaying those Goats (Rev 19) in me?)



So like that - unloving and untruthful - I'm not saved at all - no matter if I'm a believer or not - such sinful being in me must go whatever happens!

Being a believer in Christ offers me that way - for I can repent of my sin - die to my unloving and untruthful spirit - and accepting forgiveness and true love back into this part of me. Like Paul says to Timothy - God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe - saves me. (Please read Ezekiel 18 if you don't believe what is written here.)

So yes it is clear as crystal all Humanity is saved - for God's Spirit gives all of us life - Acts 17 - however unholy life killing holy life - kills Good Life - Jesus clearly tells us this - dying on that cursed tree - to show us what we do to The Father when The Lie we serve Kills The Truth of His Love right within us.

So all believing and unbelieving people will die to his or her bad life for killing their good life within

For someone who doesn't have life in Jesus however - their Good Life is raised into Newness of life by Christ upstairs - which in effect was killed by them the wilful sinner actively killing God's Good Life in them. So at physically death - when sinful flesh returns to dust - Christ has already got true human in Heaven with Him.

The wilful sinning parts of such a lost human spirit will be gnashing his or her teeth and biting tongues, for having caused Good Life so much harm - even within themselves - and will surly miss out on Christ's Eternal Good Life - for they are truthfully Bad Life - which no true person would ever want back again - and so un-repented sinners will loose all the Good they still enjoyed in their unholy life - to their Good Life Upstairs with Jesus and us all - and receive their own unholy deeds as fuel for the flames! (Goats Ending!)

However for those who have faith in Christ - things look very much better than that. For The Bible teaches that out of the two - which is us humans in both Good and Bad - Jesus made one!

Eph 2:14

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

This is what we receive as believers - our selfish sinful nature is replaced - when we live a life of Faith, love and hope - and we become submissive to God's loving truth instead of rebellious!

And so beloved what should not have been - us in shaped by sinful spirit - now can truly can be - for such is God's election - as Hosea explains detailed like anything - and also as Jesus confirms teaches that those who loose their lives for Him shall gain it - but those who try and save their live shall surely loose it.

Can you see we have both those Sheep and Goat within our inner being! The sheep are chosen the goats not - for one will be taken one will be left behind. (Matt 25)

So I fully believe that The Word teaches that wilful sinners in usthose within who keep doing untruthful and unloving things are always going to die and get punished for what they did - and as such will NEVER be saved like that - no matter how hard they try to preserve their unholy lives - even being faithfully religious - or doing good works all the time - will not save - unregenerate inner being. (Jude)

So for those of us God believing people yet also sinners - who dare to have faith in Jesus and lay down our bad life to receive His Good Life - and with Christ's grace forgive themselves and their neighbours as well - their sinful deeds - and so keep resisting The Wicked doing the wilful sinning and dress themselves with Christ Loving Truthful Spirit instead - until He Comes - they alone collect title of both being Chosen and Elected - no none else inherits eternal bliss but - true humanity ALL God's Rightful Children - those who leave their bad life behind and die to their big I and Satan trying to master them through it - and remain loving truthful and child like instead.


God's peace on you all.


(All you Sheep Please Eat Him!)

Matt 25:34-40

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'




"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I've got to admit that this entire post of yours opened a door for myself to realize that I am still not servant enough to serve the One King of Eternity, who is God Almighty Himself. You see, back in a certain board, 1 to 4 members there who are my fellow Filipinos, really made me so angry that I wanna strike a "Rider Kick" with a "Trigger Full Burst" on them because of how they keep on saying to me that "I am sick of you and your childish ways " and I am "insane" when in fact, I am acting against what they accuse me guilty of and I want to prove them wrong last night. This entire "servant of God" me with that situation really got wounded for that unfateful event that I encountered that night.

 

[Chris_G]

The Doctrine of Election is a difficult doctrine to understand and even accept. How does God's sovereignty coincide with man's responsiblity? It's like 2 parallel lines that somehow God makes them intersect, yet they remain parallel. I myself do believe in unconditional election, but that does not give man the excuse to reject Christ.

 

[childofGod31]

The guy wrote: "In connection with the truth of election, the question is often asked, "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform."

Oh, so God KNEW beforehand that majority of people will go into hell for ETERNAL torture and even knowing that, He created man anyways, just to please Himself?

I thought it says that God is love and that "love does not seek its own" and that love loves to give instead of taking...

So God created eternal torture AND He chose only a few to be spared from it (when He could have saved all if He wanted to?)

Can LOVE do that? Isn't this a contradiction?

 

[Jeshu]

The guy wrote: "In connection with the truth of election, the question is often asked, "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform."

Oh, so God KNEW beforehand that majority of people will go into hell for ETERNAL torture and even knowing that, He created man anyways, just to please Himself?

I thought it says that God is love and that "love does not seek its own" and that love loves to give instead of taking...

So God created eternal torture AND He chose only a few to be spared from it (when He could have saved all if He wanted to?)

Can LOVE do that? Isn't this a contradiction?

Everything is upside down here surely

God created us His Children and Good Creation perfectly well!

We dumped Him to serve lies and our swollen ego instead.

Indeed the father of lies raised an abomination of a god - along with us - who created hell for The Living God who has been denied His kids and has to carry the blame of it all - which He did through His Son - but humanity still rather follows lies and keeps creating more Hell in God's truth.

Who is being unloving here?

The father of lies we serve within our hearts - were our Bad Life full of evil lies is doomed to suffer the hell we put God through in The End - for we are guilty and not The Truth of God who suffered our life of loveless lies all along - unless we repent from Bad Life and serve God's loving truth bringing our Good Life back to life.

So nothing unloving from God's perspective - only perfectly loving - also for chucking Bad Life in Hell - good riddance of untrue humanity so true humanity can be once more.

Oh I rejoice in that fiery lake it is truly awesome


The Truth of The Matter.

Friends how could The Truth not be The Boss over our life,
Wouldn't The Truth know best how things have been within?
So please no more bloody demands from The Truth about this,
its time to be truthful about our not so nice and truthful times!

For why would The Truth always suffer death at our hands?
That piercing penalty to sustain our untruthful life true to be?
Why would His Good Life suffer our bad life for any length of time?
Surely it is not a scientifically sound idea for us to proceed like this?

Daily our own untrue unloving ways demand The Truth to provide,
the very reason we compete and work to personally gain Good life.
Could our untrue self escape The Truth of our bad life down here?
Would The Truth then be at fault for our lying wrong murdering us?

Though didn't The Truth turn His Hell into an awesome plan?
Salvation if we freely surrender our bad life truthfully to Him!
Untruthful and not right becoming truthfully okay from now on,
as Jesus is the only Way to survive The Truth of the Matter!

 

[Chris_G]

The guy wrote: "In connection with the truth of election, the question is often asked, "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform."

Oh, so God KNEW beforehand that majority of people will go into hell for ETERNAL torture and even knowing that, He created man anyways, just to please Himself?

I thought it says that God is love and that "love does not seek its own" and that love loves to give instead of taking...

So God created eternal torture AND He chose only a few to be spared from it (when He could have saved all if He wanted to?)

Can LOVE do that? Isn't this a contradiction?

God created Hell for the devil and his demons, it was not created for sinful man. Man chooses to go there when he continues sinning against God, because no sin can enter heaven. God is love, but He must punish sin. For those of us who have put our faith in Christ, God punished Christ for our sins, and so we are spared from His wrath. For those who reject Him, they choose to pay for their own sins in hell. Does everyone or anyone at all deserve to go to heaven? If you say "yes" then salvation is no longer by grace, it is by something man has to do to earn it. What do we really deserve for our sins? Hell. So if someone goes to hell, is he getting what he deserves? You know the answer. We don't want what we deserve, what we want is mercy and grace.

 

[aiki]

Dear brothers and sisters I found that only a critical analysis of The word gives the right answer about God's election - though it is little known down here - for I read up almost all theories and so missed what The Word truly does has to say about all this so my inner misery about those beloved in me so 'lost' and 'damned' could finally be laid to Rest.

Were these theories not anchored in the Word of God? If not, why were you bothering with them? If so, how are you certain that they have it all wrong while you do not?

Please feel free to correct, add or subtract with The Word and in Love as you see fit.

Okey dokey.

In 1 Tim 4:9-10 God told me the truth I loved hearing best!

This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

In my opinion these few Words do away with all the debate about Christ's salvation for all God's children and show us deeper glimpse of God's amazing Salvation.

Over the years theologians have put much in front and behind the Word on display here

Well, there is much in the Bible before and after this verse that qualifies and clarifies it. It would be very unwise to lift it out of its scriptural context and try to understand it as a stand-alone verse - as I'm sure you know.

- yet I believe its best to accept - The Word - in the Spirit of - Love, Faith and Hope - and not let our by sin darkened minds send God's own back to Hell or try and save the wilful sinners doing all the damage!

I'm not clear on who it is you're referring to here. Who exactly are the "willful sinners doing all the damage"? And what do you mean by "sending our own back to hell"? Who is "our own"?

As such has added - yes piled on - to our Heavenly Father and Brother unbelievable agony, I'm utterly assured of that.

What has been "piled on"?

For the Word says that - those who sin will die - not those who don't transgress God's loving truth - or repent of bad life seeking His Good Life instead! (Ezekiel 18) The Word also says that God's Mercies are New every Day - its best to cover our life in sin with Him.

I "cover" (or better, I think, cleanse) my sin with Christ's shed blood by which the remission of my sins was obtained. (Matt. 26:28; Heb. 9:22)

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I understood from Christ's teachings that the righteous don't need a doctor - so if I love my mum and dad honestly and sincerely why should I be afraid of illness? Chosen by default - as Truthful Love is always His Seed within - so surely I'm one of God's own - as my fruit testify about Him?

I'm afraid you've completely lost me here...Why don't the righteous need a doctor? And how does loving your Mom and Dad prevent you from fearing illness, exactly?

So all who have life in God's Loving Truth can be assured that all imperfections Christ died for so we may be, however small, a child of His at least in this part our life.(Can you see The Word (Hebrews 4:12) cutting here - and can see those Sheep (Matt 25) in me?)

Okay...

Yet two minutes down the road I see my neighbour who was nasty to me the other day and I haven't forgiven him his trespasses and in my heart I dislike this person and don't want to love him at all but fill myself up with Satan's spirit heeding/eating those horrible accusations against my neighbour and so have I have unholy life in doomed lying lovelessness!

Mmmhmmm...

So now The Word now says;

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Oh boy I have done it now - not good but bad ruling - untruthful and unloving thoughts and feelings shaping my spirit. Salvation is needed desperately for that side in me, for clearly I am in wrong and not God's at all when I do that. (Can you see The Word (Hebrews 4:12-13) cutting here - slaying those Goats (Rev 19) in me?)

Just sounds like Romans 7:14-25 or Galatians 5:17, 18.

So like that - unloving and untruthful - I'm not saved at all - no matter if I'm a believer or not - such sinful being in me must go whatever happens!

Brother, you most certainly can be saved and still sin. (1Jn. 1:7-10)

Being a believer in Christ offers me that way - for I can repent of my sin - die to my unloving and untruthful spirit - and accepting forgiveness and true love back into this part of me. Like Paul says to Timothy - God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe - saves me. (Please read Ezekiel 18 if you don't believe what is written here.)

So yes it is clear as crystal all Humanity is saved - for God's Spirit gives all of us life - Acts 17 - however unholy life killing holy life - kills Good Life - Jesus clearly tells us this - dying on that cursed tree - to show us what we do to The Father when The Lie we serve Kills The Truth of His Love right within us.

This isn't what Scripture teaches.

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out devils, and in your name done many wonderful works?'
Then I will profess unto them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity.'" (Matt. 7:22, 23)

"Enter you in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat;
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt. 7:13)

See also: Matt. 25:41-46.

So all believing and unbelieving people will die to his or her bad life for killing their good life within

Scripture says that for those who don't accept God's gift of salvation, there will be eternal separation from God. There is no splitting of the individual into good and bad parts, the good going to heaven and the bad to hell. Those who are not regenerated spiritually through faith in Christ are "dead in trespasses and sins" and are totally carnal. There is no good part in such people. (Ro. 7:18) Scripture makes it clear that without being "made alive" by God's Holy Spirit a person is at "enmity with God" and cannot make themselves subject to His law by virtue of their spiritual lifelessness and natural, fleshly inclination to do evil. (Ro. 8:6-8)

For someone who doesn't have life in Jesus however - their Good Life is raised into Newness of life by Christ upstairs - which in effect was killed by them the wilful sinner actively killing God's Good Life in them. So at physically death - when sinful flesh returns to dust - Christ has already got true human in Heaven with Him.

Again, this isn't what Scripture teaches. There is only one way to heaven and that is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (Eph. 2:8) Without a saving faith in Christ as Saviour, no one gets into heaven. Scripture says, "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment." (He. 9:27) What judgment can there be for those who have died if the situation is as you describe above? Consider what the psalmist wrote in Psalm 1:

"Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish." (vs. 6)

The wilful sinning parts of such a lost human spirit will be gnashing his or her teeth and biting tongues, for having caused Good Life so much harm - even within themselves - and will surly miss out on Christ's Eternal Good Life - for they are truthfully Bad Life - which no true person would ever want back again - and so un-repented sinners will loose all the Good they still enjoyed in their unholy life - to their Good Life Upstairs with Jesus and us all - and receive their own unholy deeds as fuel for the flames! (Goats Ending!)

I just don't see this in Scripture, brother.

However for those who have faith in Christ - things look very much better than that. For The Bible teaches that out of the two - which is us humans in both Good and Bad - Jesus made one!

Eph 2:14

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

In context, this verse is speaking of how Christ's work on the cross has made Jews and Gentiles one, not our good and bad selves. Verses 11 and 12 make this very clear. You have badly misread the meaning of verse 14.

This is what we receive as believers - our selfish sinful nature is replaced - when we live a life of Faith, love and hope - and we become submissive to God's loving truth instead of rebellious!

Actually, Scripture teaches that our fleshly nature, our "old man" as the apostle Paul called it, is not eradicated or replaced, but simply rendered powerless by God's Spirit and our union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. (Ro. 6)

Can you see we have both those Sheep and Goat within our inner being! The sheep are chosen the goats not - for one will be taken one will be left behind. (Matt 25)

Brother, in context, Matthew 24:40-42 is not speaking of a person's "inner being(s)" at all, but of those who were prepared for Christ's return and those who were not.

So I fully believe that The Word teaches that wilful sinners in usthose within who keep doing untruthful and unloving things are always going to die and get punished for what they did - and as such will NEVER be saved like that - no matter how hard they try to preserve their unholy lives - even being faithfully religious - or doing good works all the time - will not save - unregenerate inner being. (Jude)

"And they who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Ga. 5:24) This becomes true of a person at the moment that person is saved.

Jeshu are you attending a Bible-believing church regularly? Are you under the spiritual mentoring and guiding wisdom of a mature brother in Christ? If not, you should be. It might help you avoid the mistakes in understanding you've made above.

Selah.

 

[stormdancer0]

I think that people who believe that all will go to Heaven have taken a lot of scripture out of context. You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to, if you do that. Even Satan himself quoted scripture to Jesus to try to get Him to sin.

 

[Jeshu]

Were these theories not anchored in the Word of God? If not, why were you bothering with them? If so, how are you certain that they have it all wrong while you do not?




Okey dokey.



Well, there is much in the Bible before and after this verse that qualifies and clarifies it. It would be very unwise to lift it out of its scriptural context and try to understand it as a stand-alone verse - as I'm sure you know.



I'm not clear on who it is you're referring to here. Who exactly are the "willful sinners doing all the damage"? And what do you mean by "sending our own back to hell"? Who is "our own"?



What has been "piled on"?



I "cover" (or better, I think, cleanse) my sin with Christ's shed blood by which the remission of my sins was obtained. (Matt. 26:28; Heb. 9:22)



I'm afraid you've completely lost me here...Why don't the righteous need a doctor? And how does loving your Mom and Dad prevent you from fearing illness, exactly?



Okay...



Mmmhmmm...



Just sounds like Romans 7:14-25 or Galatians 5:17, 18.



Brother, you most certainly can be saved and still sin. (1Jn. 1:7-10)



This isn't what Scripture teaches.

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out devils, and in your name done many wonderful works?'
Then I will profess unto them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity.'" (Matt. 7:22, 23)

"Enter you in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat;
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt. 7:13)

See also: Matt. 25:41-46.



Scripture says that for those who don't accept God's gift of salvation, there will be eternal separation from God. There is no splitting of the individual into good and bad parts, the good going to heaven and the bad to hell. Those who are not regenerated spiritually through faith in Christ are "dead in trespasses and sins" and are totally carnal. There is no good part in such people. (Ro. 7:18) Scripture makes it clear that without being "made alive" by God's Holy Spirit a person is at "enmity with God" and cannot make themselves subject to His law by virtue of their spiritual lifelessness and natural, fleshly inclination to do evil. (Ro. 8:6-8)



Again, this isn't what Scripture teaches. There is only one way to heaven and that is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (Eph. 2:8) Without a saving faith in Christ as Saviour, no one gets into heaven. Scripture says, "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment." (He. 9:27) What judgment can there be for those who have died if the situation is as you describe above? Consider what the psalmist wrote in Psalm 1:

"Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish." (vs. 6)



I just don't see this in Scripture, brother.



In context, this verse is speaking of how Christ's work on the cross has made Jews and Gentiles one, not our good and bad selves. Verses 11 and 12 make this very clear. You have badly misread the meaning of verse 14.



Actually, Scripture teaches that our fleshly nature, our "old man" as the apostle Paul called it, is not eradicated or replaced, but simply rendered powerless by God's Spirit and our union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. (Ro. 6)



Brother, in context, Matthew 24:40-42 is not speaking of a person's "inner being(s)" at all, but of those who were prepared for Christ's return and those who were not.



"And they who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Ga. 5:24) This becomes true of a person at the moment that person is saved.

Jeshu are you attending a Bible-believing church regularly? Are you under the spiritual mentoring and guiding wisdom of a mature brother in Christ? If not, you should be. It might help you avoid the mistakes in understanding you've made above.

Selah.

So The Word setting me free means to you that I have to bow down under the yoke of slavery once more?


You are being a weird guy

I think that people who believe that all will go to Heaven have taken a lot of scripture out of context. You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to, if you do that. Even Satan himself quoted scripture to Jesus to try to get Him to sin.

Yes Satan has quoted much scripture to keep God's captive children bandaged.

Though The Whole Truth and nothing but The Truth? No way havfe you notcide how he always adds to The Word.

Let's look at what The Word says and please do the same.

Never taking one text away to place the other.

No one can tell me The Truth is not The Truth!

And this is what the truth says

so add text to text - and my analysis will be back - but all those added words you seem to still trust in - will be like the dust of the earthy like they ought to be.


So The Saviour of all men will only save a few you two are saying?
In 1 Tim 4:9-10

This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.




a trustworthy saying so what you good friends are dumping on me is not true then isn't it? Clearly exposed a lie to be!
Only The Word and only in love please! and then we can discuss things properly and not like this thanks.

 

[stormdancer0]

Jesus is the Savior of all man. He offers salvation to all men. If they accept it, they are saved. If they reject it, they are condemned.

Universal salvation is a soothing, comforting thought. Many latch onto it because they don't understand God's reasoning and motivation. That's because we are man, not God. Just as a blade of grass does not understand quantum physics, we do not understand God. But we know He is love, He is just, and He is holy. No where in the Bible does it say that salvation will be thrust upon those who do not want it. And there are many who do not want it.

Jesus spoke of, and warned of, hell as much as any other topic. Again and again, He warned the people of the dangers of rejecting the Father, and the One whom He sent. No where in His words, or in the Bible in general, is there offered an escape from hell. Hell is forever. I honestly don't know how He will handle those who had no chance to hear of Him. I trust Him to be fair about that. But the Bible is clear, in my opinion, that the sheep and the goats are two separate groups of people, not flesh vs. spirit man.

His sheep hear and recognize His voice and follow Him. I believe that claiming that all will be saved is adding to the scriptures. The only scripture that states that is the one you mentioned, that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind. And He is. But He will not force Himself on someone who wants nothing to do with Him. I do not believe for a minute that someone can reject Jesus here, then accept Him after death.

What you teach would encourage others to live however they want - you'll eventually get to Heaven anyway. Why follow God here? You can sin, cheat, sleep around, lie, etc all you want. You will be punished, but then off to Heaven you go! No, I'm sorry. God is a just God, One that cannot abide sin. If someone dies uncovered by the blood of His Son - which must be a decision of one's volition - God will see the sin, not Jesus' blood, and will send him or her away. He doesn't want to, but His very nature commands it. He is, above all, holy.

 

[Jeshu]

Jesus is the Savior of all man. He offers salvation to all men. If they accept it, they are saved. If they reject it, they are condemned.

Universal salvation is a soothing, comforting thought. Many latch onto it because they don't understand God's reasoning and motivation. That's because we are man, not God. Just as a blade of grass does not understand quantum physics, we do not understand God. But we know He is love, He is just, and He is holy. No where in the Bible does it say that salvation will be thrust upon those who do not want it. And there are many who do not want it.

Jesus spoke of, and warned of, hell as much as any other topic. Again and again, He warned the people of the dangers of rejecting the Father, and the One whom He sent. No where in His words, or in the Bible in general, is there offered an escape from hell. Hell is forever. I honestly don't know how He will handle those who had no chance to hear of Him. I trust Him to be fair about that. But the Bible is clear, in my opinion, that the sheep and the goats are two separate groups of people, not flesh vs. spirit man.

His sheep hear and recognize His voice and follow Him. I believe that claiming that all will be saved is adding to the scriptures. The only scripture that states that is the one you mentioned, that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind. And He is. But He will not force Himself on someone who wants nothing to do with Him. I do not believe for a minute that someone can reject Jesus here, then accept Him after death.

What you teach would encourage others to live however they want - you'll eventually get to Heaven anyway. Why follow God here? You can sin, cheat, sleep around, lie, etc all you want. You will be punished, but then off to Heaven you go! No, I'm sorry. God is a just God, One that cannot abide sin. If someone dies uncovered by the blood of His Son - which must be a decision of one's volition - God will see the sin, not Jesus' blood, and will send him or her away. He doesn't want to, but His very nature commands it. He is, above all, holy.

Come on Sis with the word and in love - I'm sorry your accusations are very offensive to me and shows me y7ou still haven't understood what I wrote as clear as crystal in my first post.


I did request Scripture to be used to reproof or correct - placed without attacking Scripture with Scripture though. For what you are saying is not from Scripture but as they taught you to understand Scripture - however it is clearly in error with the Text I just posted and can therefore not be placed into the debate as you have. What the doctrine of men says about The Truth can only be true when they follow The Truth and not when they teach outside of that.

About your charges against my so called teaching - please read my original post and you will see that what you accuse me of is not true whatsoever! Your inner assumptions are laying such charges against me - not The Truth of God - all I have done is explained God's Word about God's salvation as Scripture itself teaches no more no less.

I never said all will go to Heaven - I only said that all humanity has been saved by Christ for that is what The Text says - though you try and tell me that such is not true for your doctrine knows better - I'm sorry I wont buy that!

Especially because I do believe in judgement -The Wicked will go to hell - and I'm very happy about that - such doesn't take away from the fact that I also believe that the bible doesn't lie about humanity being saved - rather it upholds it.

For when the father of lies ruling humanity through lies is exposed by The Truth - then judgement will certainly take place in all flesh. The Sheep and the Goat will then be clearly visible - even in your own heart - surely?

Isn't such Greatest Truth ever?

 

[obsolete]

Come on Sis with the word and in love - I'm sorry your accusations are very offensive to me and shows me y7ou still haven't understood what I wrote as clear as crystal in my first post.


I did request Scripture to be used to reproof or correct - placed without attacking Scripture with Scripture though. For what you are saying is not from Scripture but as they taught you to understand Scripture - however it is clearly in error with the Text I just posted and can therefore not be placed into the debate as you have. What the doctrine of men says about The Truth can only be true when they follow The Truth and not when they teach outside of that.

About your charges against my so called teaching - please read my original post and you will see that what you accuse me of is not true whatsoever! Your inner assumptions are laying such charges against me - not The Truth of God - all I have done is explained God's Word about God's salvation as Scripture itself teaches no more no less.

I never said all will go to Heaven - I only said that all humanity has been saved by Christ for that is what The Text says - though you try and tell me that such is not true for your doctrine knows better - I'm sorry I wont buy that!

Especially because I do believe in judgement -The Wicked will go to hell - and I'm very happy about that - such doesn't take away from the fact that I also believe that the bible doesn't lie about humanity being saved - rather it upholds it.

For when the father of lies ruling humanity through lies is exposed by The Truth - then judgement will certainly take place in all flesh. The Sheep and the Goat will then be clearly visible - even in your own heart - surely?

Isn't such Greatest Truth ever?

That's actually inconsistant with the rules of cf forum, which follow the Nicine code, shown below.
Notice there is no content other than He died and arose.
Assumptions about that are only that. Assumptions.


The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

 

[Jeshu]

That's actually inconsistant with the rules of cf forum, which follow the Nicine code, shown below.
Notice there is no content other than He died and arose.
Assumptions about that are only that. Assumptions.


The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

I sorry mate you are going to explain it clearer than this- I uphold the same creed as far as my understanding of the word goes - where don't I did you say?

 

[anthony55]

chris:

How does God's sovereignty coincide with man's responsiblity?

Man has no responsibility in being elected by God for salvation, nor does man have any responsibility to get saved, it all depended on God in Christ.