CHOSEN - Dead or Alive...?

[Rightglory]

Tzaousios,

I have already affirmed the points of theological orthodoxy, which you brushed aside as being nothing of importance. You did this just to preserve your accepted ecclesiological presupposition that the EO is "the Church". I guess the natures of Christ and the persons of the Trinity do not matter as much as your presupposition.

To make such general statements means very little. The theology of those points you differ significantly with Orthodoxy. You could not even understand the ecclesiology of Orthodoxy and how scripture describes it.

As I stated earlier, it is not my presupposition. It has been the understanding of the Church for 2000 years. You can call it everything you like but that does not change history nor the meaning.

The fact is the Trinity has a direct bearing on ecclesiology of the Church. The Unity of the Gospel is related to the Trinity. All of which you and every protestant has denied for 500 years. That you have created a whole new definition and ecclesiology is quite evident, which is why it does not align with scripture.

It is woefully obvious that your "conversion" from Protestantism to Orthodoxy has done nothing for your person except turn you into a bitter curmudgeon who harbors poisonous, sour grapes against all Protestants.

Hardly. That is the whole point of satan's work. To divide first, then when those who have accepted Christ on Christ's terms seeks to demonize and minimize the Gospel to make it equal to all false teachings. The early Church spent a lot of blood to uphold the Gospel of Christ. They were not willing to call Gnosticism, or Judiaism equal with the Gospel. That it did not really matter just how we understood God as God has revealed Himself. NOt how man would like to understand Him. That is the difference between you and I.

When anyone points out your lack of Christian charity and love, I guess you missed that part of the Gospel once passed down, you throw up your ecclesiological presupposition and hide behind it.

It would be of no effect if we simply accepted all false teachings as valid. What Christian love would that be? That we would be willing to permit anyone to be lost because we did not want to rock the boat, that we did not feel it important enough to proclaim the Gospel of Christ as He gave it. I don't see that attitude anywhere in historical Christianity. We would never have had an martyrs if all teachings were acceptable. Why die for the Gospel when the all gospels are the same or makes no difference.

All you have done is appropriated the Roman Catholic's ecclesiological position of extra ecclesiam nulla salus to your own personal EO belief and used it as a hammer to bludgeon Protestants whom you seek out on internet forums. You have constructed a type of phyletism of your own which you act out against your Protestant targets.

again the typical statement Satan would make to divide and conquer. As long as everything is acceptable he has the upper hand. He is leading everyone down the wide and easy path to destruction.

It is not either Roman Catholic or Orthodoxy that proclaims that Christ is the ONLY way. It is His way alone as He stated in scripture. It is not man's way. That is clearly stated in scripture. A book that you claim has authority, yet you do not follow that authority.

Confess your sins of hatred, hypocrisy, and lack of love in your nect visit with your priest. Do yourself a favor and reread some of the saints lives you claim to emulate and pay attention to what they do in love.

and not a single one would claim that all views are acceptable. We would never have had any false teachings and we today could believe in a non trinitartian, trinitarian view, in an Incarnational or a non- incarnational view, that Christ was not fully man, or that He was not fully God. Or that it does not even matter, or claim an incarnation, but it has no effect upon mankind. We could believe in every false view that has come along and they are all viable and equal in value in understanding who God is and how we relate to Him.

The fact of the matter is that you are lost in the modern, humanistic, relativistic, tolerance of all views. The only thing that matters is what each one believes as he interprets and develops his own means of salvation from a Book in total isolation of its content and context and of everyone else. It makes the Bible virtually of no effect. Why even use it as a beginning point when one can make is say what you want it to say anyway. ONe of its purposes is to lead one to Christ, not away from Him.

How cosy, comfortable, and a great psychological lift that man can save himself by his very own view. You did not make a single effort to show that what you believe is even remotely a part of a universal Gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Then why do you embrace unconditional election ? Isn't that one of the elements of the TULIP... did you come too 'unconditional election' through searching the scriptures...?

You so keep missing the point, don't you. Yes, I came to see the doctrine of unconditional election through a careful study of scripture. Does it agree with the U in TULIP? Yes. So what? That does nothing to detract from the arguments made from scripture. I used to believe in conditional election. I came to that view by believing what I was told by man and without a careful study of scripture. So what?

IF so, then why not make your case from scriptural facts rather than from a commentary from the WCF ?

Let's see. Hmmm. I have been posting in defense of the doctrines of grace for over a year on this forum. This was the first time I ever quoted from an outside source. And now you think you have a gotcha moment. So be it. I can't change that. Have fun with it. But you and I both know that I have made countless arguments from Scripture defending the doctrines of grace. Whether or not you agree with them is another issue. But they have been made.

Absolutely... let's stick with scripture...

Okay. But you had better not post anything that agrees with Finney.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So what does this scripture mean to you... it's the context for Romans 9 and what God's purpose according to election actually is imo...

What's your opinion of these verses Hammster ?

Since this immediately follows Romans 8, and that has been established as teaching about election, the effectual call, the fact that we can't do anything good without already having the Spirit within us, etc., I look at this in the same context. Those Jews who are also hearing this letter needed to know that they weren't saved just because they were Jews. What they did or who they were was irrelevant. The true children of God were those who are found in Christ, not through the flesh, but through the promise.

 

[Rightglory]

Hammster,

My views are contradictory to scripture? Wow. Thanks, man. That really clears it up. We can all go home now because all we have to is listen to Rightglory. No more debating or discussion, please.

Can you show that they are not?

I don't want you to listen to me. What I hope to do is entice you to become Bereans. I want you to check the Gospel in relation to what has always been believed, the historical authentic witness of the Holy Spirit. That would be using the Holy Spirit to guide you to the Truth, the Truth, His Truth that was ONCE given in the beginning.

Then believe that He is powerful enough and trustworthy to live up to His word to preserve both His Church, the Body of Christ in this world and His Gospel.
Christianity has been proclaimed for 2000 years in this world. Man has accepted or rejected that Gospel. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, to lead to His Church with His Gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Hammster,

Can you show that they are not?

Yes. I have. Repeatedly.

I don't want you to listen to me.

Really? Then why post your views? If what you said was really true, your posts would be something like, "I disagree. Please pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you in truth". But they aren't, are they?

What I hope to do is entice you to become Bereans. I want you to check the Gospel in relation to what has always been believed, the historical authentic witness of the Holy Spirit. That would be using the Holy Spirit to guide you to the Truth, the Truth, His Truth that was ONCE given in the beginning.

Thanks. I have.

Then believe that He is powerful enough and trustworthy to live up to His word to preserve both His Church, the Body of Christ in this world and His Gospel.

I do, actually. I just don't think the EO is that church.

Christianity has been proclaimed for 2000 years in this world. Man has accepted or rejected that Gospel. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, to lead to His Church with His Gospel.

And every single person who has heard and embraced the Gospel is saved, regardless of denomination. Heck, there are probably even saved people in the EO. Since I hold to the biblical doctrine of unconditional election, I have to believe that God saves even in misguided denominations such as the EO, RCC, SCB, UM, PCA, PC(USA), etc.

 

[Rightglory]

Hammster,

Yes. I have. Repeatedly.

Yes, the gospel according to Hammster. But what about the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel given in the beginning that has been believed by Christians for 2000 years. There is a vast difference.

Really? Then why post your views? If what you said was really true, your posts would be something like, "I disagree. Please pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you in truth". But they aren't, are they?

How long have you been reading the Bible? Simply saying I disagree would not lead you to check against your own view. After all there are thousands out there that disagree with your view and have views all their own. How would you know which is correct? Where is that Gospel against which you align all doctrines to see if they are the Truth?

ONe must at least give the Gospel as it has been always understood if one is going to point someone in the right direction. And who says I do not pray for all those who I come into contact.

I do, actually. I just don't think the EO is that church.

which is what everyone says but they have no factual data to support of where they think it might exist. Where is that Church that Christ established here on earth. How about letting us in on your view of where that Church might exist?

And every single person who has heard and embraced the Gospel is saved, regardless of denomination. Heck, there are probably even saved people in the EO. Since I hold to the biblical doctrine of unconditional election, I have to believe that God saves even in misguided denominations such as the EO, RCC, SCB, UM, PCA, PC(USA), etc.

A doctrine that you cannot estabish has ever seen the light of day as the Gospel from the beginning.

How magnanomous of you to include just about everyone in the world who ever read the Bible.

Here would be a great time to show where the Church that Christ established exists and has taught this doctrine from the beginning. Lots of conjecture but never any information. How about some facts?

 

[Tzaousios]

The theology of those points you differ significantly with Orthodoxy. You could not even understand the ecclesiology of Orthodoxy and how scripture describes it.

Malarky. The only point that you have been harping on this whole time is the ecclesiological one. What other theological doctrines am I not orthodox/Orthodox on?

The Unity of the Gospel is related to the Trinity. All of which you and every protestant has denied for 500 years. That you have created a whole new definition and ecclesiology is quite evident, which is why it does not align with scripture.

Nope. Sour grape airing.

It would be of no effect if we simply accepted all false teachings as valid.

Let's hear what Christian love and charity you actually show, besides your so-called "Berean" approach, which in reality is just a sadomasochist bludgeoning of Protestants with whom you have sour grapes from the past.

It is not either Roman Catholic or Orthodoxy that proclaims that Christ is the ONLY way.

Rhetoric. Christ is the only way. You are conflating it with your accepted presupposition that the EO is "the Church." All you have done in trying to deal with your psychological difficulties with your past is appropriate "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" to your personal belief so that you can torture your sought out victims with it. Rightglory, the Grand Inquisitor of the Antiochian Church.

The fact of the matter is that you are lost in the modern, humanistic, relativistic, tolerance of all views.

Slanderous garbage. The only reason you are saying this is because of your ecclesiological presupposition and nothing else.

Such a model Christian you became when you converted to Orthodoxy. It seems like you use the EO as an edifice which you can hide behind and from the top of which you can pour the poisonous slop from your past upon the heads of your sought-out enemies. That is about it.

 

[Rightglory]

Tzaousios,

Malarky. The only point that you have been harping on this whole time is the ecclesiological one. What other theological doctrines am I not orthodox/Orthodox on?

which is quite significant, since the Bible says quite clearly that it is ONLY through Christ that one is saved. One must be IN Christ, have been joined with Christ. If you are not in the Body of Christ, just how is anything else relevant?

The Unity of the Gospel is related to the Trinity. All of which you and every protestant has denied for 500 years. That you have created a whole new definition and ecclesiology is quite evident, which is why it does not align with scripture.
Your response....

Nope. Sour grape airing.

easy answer but again no evidence to the contrary.

Let's hear what Christian love and charity you actually show, besides your so-called "Berean" approach, which in reality is just a sadomasochist bludgeoning of Protestants with whom you have sour grapes from the past.

the Christian views of modern man is what you want to hear. That all and any view of one own interpretation is valid. Whatever you believe about God is valid as long as it is about God. Of course this puts you right in with all the other views that I listed but you called false. Yet you have no standard by which to call anything false. Which is why you must acknowledge all views and that is the Christian thing to do. Satan must really love your theology.

Rhetoric. Christ is the only way. You are conflating it with your accepted presupposition that the EO is "the Church." All you have done in trying to deal with your psychological difficulties with your past is appropriate "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" to your personal belief so that you can torture your sought out victims with it. Rightglory, the Grand Inquisitor of the Antiochian Church.

Here is another chance for you to proclaim that Church Established in this world. Yet you cannot or will not do so. You want to dismiss as rehtoric 2000 years of proclaimed Gospel. Yet by dismissing it, you have no answer. How quaint.

Slanderous garbage. The only reason you are saying this is because of your ecclesiological presupposition and nothing else.

again, not my presupposition. It is scripture, it is the established Church of Christ, and history speaks volumes against all your statments to the contrary. You cannot change history which is why you have no answer.

Such a model Christian you became when you converted to Orthodoxy. It seems like you use the EO as an edifice which you can hide behind and from the top of which you can pour the poisonous slop from your past upon the heads of your sought-out enemies. That is about it.

it sounds like a man, frustrated, and without any solid ground on which to stand. It is the only type of reply that you can give at the moment since you cannot refute history.

 

[Tzaousios]

Rightglory, cut it with the EO apologetic website talking points.

Let's hear what Christian love and charity you actually show, besides your so-called "Berean" approach, which in reality is just a sadomasochist bludgeoning of Protestants with whom you have sour grapes from the past. It seems you are capable of doing nothing else.

Do you actually do any good works? Do you show the love of Christ to people even if they do not share your presupposition?

It would seem that based on your conduct you would give cyanide rather than a cold cup of water.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I've been away for a week and come back here to the same old "the Church that Christ has established" mantra.

Good grief, where is the charity and love for Christian brothers and sisters, the EO church is not the "one true church", someone has been brainwashed.

Sola scriptura
Sola fide
Sola gratia
Solas Christus
Soli Deo gloria

 

[Rightglory]

Tzaousios,

Rightglory, cut it with the EO apologetic website talking points.
Let's hear what Christian love and charity you actually show, besides your so-called "Berean" approach, which in reality is just a sadomasochist bludgeoning of Protestants with whom you have sour grapes from the past. It seems you are capable of doing nothing else.

they are historical facts. Facts which you apparently have no answer for otherwise I'm sure you would present them.

You claim scripture is your authority but do not abide by that authority. If it disagrees with your sensabilities it cannot be accepted since it does not agree with your personal interpretation. you jetison the entire Gospel for your own personal one. How can that be called the Gospel? How can that be called honoring God as He has revealed Himself?

You would want Jesus to accept the Pharisees' teachings because it would not be "Christian" of Christ to show them as false. Now, you want the Church of Christ to honor all views, personal opinions as the Truth. Yet you cannot even remotely identify with that once given Gospel.

You have yet to give any evidence of the Church Christ founded on this earth. If not the EO, then who, where? It must exist, since Christ promised that He would NEVER leave His Church. That the Gospel would be preserved in that Body over which He is the Head. So where is it? You claim to be a member of it, so where is it?

Do you actually do any good works? Do you show the love of Christ to people even if they do not share your presupposition?

Always just as I am with you. Showing love is telling the Truth. Not watering it down and then saying anything goes, just believe anything that comes to mind while reading a Book. Establish your own personal faith, theology, church, a gospel of one.

After all this is actually apologetics. We are actually discussing the differences that exists between historical Christianity and protestant form of Christianity.

It would seem that based on your conduct you would give cyanide rather than a cold cup of water.

I would contend that it is you that is giving cyanide, rather than the Truth of the Gospel as Christ gave it to us. You may not agree but you have not given any evidence to the contrary either. So where is the Church on this earth? Where is that Church Christ founded at Pentacost?

 

[Rightglory]

JustASIam77,

I've been away for a week and come back here to the same old "the Church that Christ has established" mantra.

Good grief, where is the charity and love for Christian brothers and sisters, the EO church is not the "one true church", someone has been brainwashed.

Ok, let us accept that assertion as truth. If that is so, where is that Church that Christ established at Pentacost?

Where is the Gospel once given that the Holy Spirit promised to preserve within the Body of Christ over which He is the Head?

You have 2000 years of history to help you. I'll be looking forward for your answers.

 

[JustAsIam77]

JustASIam77,

Ok, let us accept that assertion as truth. If that is so, where is that Church that Christ established at Pentacost?

Where is the Gospel once given that the Holy Spirit promised to preserve within the Body of Christ over which He is the Head?

You have 2000 years of history to help you. I'll be looking forward for your answers.

I don't need 2000 yrs of history to help. I am part of the Body of Christ as of today and the last 40 years, it was then I accepted Him as my Saviour.

What does your church offer me that Christ has not already given me?

 

[Rightglory]

JustASIam77,

I don't need 2000 yrs of history to help. I am part of the Body of Christ as of today and the last 40 years, it was then I accepted Him as my Saviour.
What does your church offer me that Christ has not already given me?

If you are part of the Body then you should be able to tell me where this Church exists?

What Church are you speaking about? You do realize that the Church, is the Body of Christ?

 

[JustAsIam77]

JustASIam77,



If you are part of the Body then you should be able to tell me where this Church exists?

What Church are you speaking about? You do realize that the Church, is the Body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[Hammster]

And

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

This was written to the Ephesian church. The above was written to the Corinthian church. And there are letters to the churches of Galatia, the church at Phillipi, the Colossian church, etc. Not once did Paul criticize them for not being in whatever he considered the One True Church. He just knew that they were are part of the body because they were elect.

 

[JustAsIam77]

And

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

This was written to the Ephesian church. The above was written to the Corinthian church. And there are letters to the churches of Galatia, the church at Phillipi, the Colossian church, etc. Not once did Paul criticize them for not being in whatever he considered the One True Church. He just knew that they were are part of the body because they were elect.

AMEN!

 

[Markea]

So we're chosen in Christ, in Him.

Doesn't that settle the matter ? Is anyone questioning that we are chosen in Christ ?

Chosen means the same thing as elected, so we are elected in Christ, that is what God chose to do, right ?

God didn't chose anyone while they are dead, they were chosen in Christ, and Christ is alive.

 

[Hammster]

So we're chosen in Christ, in Him.

Doesn't that settle the matter ? Is anyone questioning that we are chosen in Christ ?

Chosen means the same thing as elected, so we are elected in Christ, that is what God chose to do, right ?

God didn't chose anyone while they are dead, they were chosen in Christ, and Christ is alive.

I'll pretend that you aren't a sock and are new to this discussion. But yes, we are chosen in Christ. When? Before the foundation of the world. Why? According the kind intention of His will. Nothing in about us believing before any of this happens.

 

[Markea]

I'll pretend that you aren't a sock and are new to this discussion. But yes, we are chosen in Christ. When? Before the foundation of the world. Why? According the kind intention of His will. Nothing in about us believing before any of this happens.

I agree, we're chosen in Christ.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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