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Now you are confusing being the elect with election. Those are two different things as well.Nobody here is confounding election with salvation...
ELECTION is conditional upon being IN CHRIST - everyone agrees with that. God doesn't have children according to the FLESH, but according to the PROMISE.
In a sense, this is correct. This is the temporal part of salvation. Once we repent and believe, then we are saved. And sealed, as you are fond of bringing up. But that isn't election.Being in CHRIST is conditional upon repentance toward God and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These are what's called the first principles of Christ... repentance from dead works and faith toward God... (Heb 6)
That's fine. I believe that God foreknew me as well. What I don't believe is that God based His decisions on what He saw that I was going to do. That is Pelagianism, and that is a heresy.I believe that God FOREKNEW me before I was born, but that doesn't mean that I existed before I was born.
I was born with a sin nature... I was not born IN CHRIST... I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after I trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of my sins... just like every other Christian before me. Even after being placed into Christ, I have my old nature (even though positionally I am crucified with Christ)I was born with a sin nature as well. I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit as well. I disagree with the old nature part, but that is a minor issue that has been debated for ages, and not really part of this discussion. But I know what you are getting at.
But this isn't election. This is salvation. You are still conflating the two, even though you say you aren't.
Amen.GOD is good... we must decrease and HE must increase.
Now you are confusing being the elect with election. Those are two different things as well.
In a sense, this is correct. This is the temporal part of salvation. Once we repent and believe, then we are saved. And sealed, as you are fond of bringing up. But that isn't election.
That's fine. I believe that God foreknew me as well. What I don't believe is that God based His decisions on what He saw that I was going to do. That is Pelagianism, and that is a heresy.
I was born with a sin nature as well. I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit as well. I disagree with the old nature part, but that is a minor issue that has been debated for ages, and not really part of this discussion. But I know what you are getting at.
But this isn't election. This is salvation. You are still conflating the two, even though you say you aren't.
OK, you tell me... IS ELECTION dependent upon being IN CHRIST... yes or no ?
Election is not dependent upon being in Christ. Being in Christ is depndent upon election.
Election is not dependent upon being in Christ.
IMO this says it all...
What God chooses has nothing to do with His Son... well, at least according to Hammster.
Election is the determination that one will be chosen for salvation.
This is where we disagree...
ELECTION is God choosing His Son (the Son of promise, as exemplified in ISAAC), over all FLESH... ie...
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Election has EVERYTHING to do WITH CHRIST... I can't imagine WHY anyone would believe otherwise... unless of course they must process everything they know through the 'unconditional election' filter... which isn't biblical... but that doesn't matter to people anyway.
Probably because the word 'elect' is used too many times in the Bible to refer to a people for it to not be spoken of in that manner.
I know... every time I read about election... it's IN CHRIST... not one time did God choose a person while in Adam...
That can't be important though... it's probably fine to believe that you're the elect along with God's Son... I'm sure the Father won't mind that people place themselves on the same level as His Son... saying that they were chosen from before the foundation of the world... along with God's spotless Lamb.
IT doesn't matter that God says that if any man will come after ME, then let him DENY HIMSELF... take up HIS CROSS and follow ME...
That's probably a good idea, but not that important..
We're probably not crucified with Christ.. Paul was probably up too light the night before when he wrote that.
ELECTION is conditional to being in CHRIST... unless of course you'd rather deny that simple truth and continue to preach that people are chosen by God for no reason at all... that's unconditional, and it's not biblical... but it MUST be honoured because people call themselves CALVINists and can't honour the word of God without it first going through Calvin's TULIP.
Demonstrating that you do not understand the doctrine of Unconditional Election. We can't defend against your misguided view. It is tiring trying to explain over and over how your view of our view is wrong.. You set up straw-men that you can conveniently knock down.THE ONLY reason I can imagine why a person would say that ELECTION is not conditional upon being in CHRIST... is because they must honour the U in tulip, over the simplicity and truth of the word of God.
Demonstrating that you do not understand the doctrine of Unconditional Election. We can't defend against your misguided view. It is tiring trying to explain over and over how your view of our view is wrong.. You set up straw-men that you can conveniently knock down.
I'm not sure why you are pushing this point. We all believe that salvation comes only through Christ, and after we are saved, we are, positionally, in Christ. Election is the process of electing. Electing is choosing. If someone is already in Christ, what are they being further chosen for? Answer that and maybe we can see why you are making an issue out of something that isn't an issue to begin with.
I already told you that we need to DISAGREE as concerning what ELECTION actually means...
IF you think that it means one thing... and I believe that it means God chose CHRIST from before the foundation of the world... then we're stopped right here.
I've said it many times... God's CHOICE was that NO FLESH would be the children of God... but the children of the PROMISE.. and that they would be called IN ISAAC...
If you can't see that Issac is a perfect picture of CHRIST, then I'm sorry... you'll continue to believe otherwise.
If you'd like to believe that IN ISAAC means unconditionally, then so be it.
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