CHOSEN - Dead or Alive...?

[Ghost air]

Does God choose us while we are dead in trespasses and in sins...?

OR...

Does God choose us while we are alive in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit ?

Can these two exist in the same lump... a dead man and a living man..?

What's interesting to me (and what some may find confusing)... is that we are dead in Adam, under condemnation, and by nature, children of wrath... and there is NO FIXING that man... we cannot put new wine into old skins... they can't handle it.

AND...regardless of the fact that we are DEAD spiritually to God... and out of fellowship with Him, we are very much alive in the flesh... although we are not alive in Christ... still speaking of being in Adam.

It is a little confusing...

Here's what I think the bible is showing us with respect to this state which all of humanity is in...

We are NOT GOOD... and God does not want to rehabilitate YOU... He wants YOU to be A LIVING SACRIFICE FOR HIM... (your flesh, or old nature, being that living sacrifice)... He wants YOU to see YOUR FLESH for exactly what it is, and He wants YOU to WILLINGLY nail that to YOUR CROSS. That is what Christ did for the world... He willing was made a living sacrifice for the sins of the world, and He bore them all in His own body on the tree..

listen carefully...

And when He had called the people unto Him with His disciples also, He said unto them, Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

OK, God is NOT choosing that man... He is telling all of us plainly that we are NOT GOOD and that our flesh is to be nailed to the cross...

That's what it means to be crucified with Christ... we AGREE with God that our old man is corrupt, and that he is not good, and that we will (willingly) lay down our life, for HIS LIFE.. being a living sacrifice while bearing our sin in our own body, and anyone who has been in Christ for any length of years knows what that is like... it is certainly NOT pleasant... Paul speaks of it as 'this body of death'...

SO there is a COST... there is a CONDITION... and it's YOU WILLINGLY taking up YOUR CROSS, and being a LIVING SACRIFICE unto Christ. AGREEING with God that you are not good, and that HE IS GOOD, and that you believe that, and willingly come to Him, recognizing that desparate need of HIS LIFE in you..

Can two walk together except they be agreed..?

 

[Ghost air]

I think that one of the most important things in preaching the gospel is preaching the cost of discipleship in Christ... people need to know that they are not good, and that there is a terrible problem within us called SIN... OUR FLESH is NOT a good ruler... although it WANTS to rule in us, and we are told to NOT let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

That's where it becomes our REASONABLE SERVICE to be a living sacrifice unto God.. when we do believe that HE died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that there is no greater love than a man laying down His life for His friends... then that should become our will... to willingly lay our life down for Him, and to serve Him out of immense gratitude... never out of obligation or demand, even though that may be true as well.. but God doesn't force anyone to lay down their life for Him... they must do that willingly.

That's one of the miracles of the power of the gospel... it can and often does bring people to the point of forsaking all that they have, to be with Christ... this was especially true in the first century church, when a Jew would lose all ties with family etc, for choosing to follow Christ.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

I think we are chosen before we do good or bad. Or to put it in the words of scripture..."we are chosen before the foundation of the world."

 

[A New Dawn]

I think the "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" says it all. (Well, that and the verse by my brother, Terrence Theodore, there.) How can we be alive in Christ if we were still sinners when Christ died for us?

 

[Hammster]

I think that one of the most important things in preaching the gospel is preaching the cost of discipleship in Christ... people need to know that they are not good, and that there is a terrible problem within us called SIN... OUR FLESH is NOT a good ruler... although it WANTS to rule in us, and we are told to NOT let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

That's where it becomes our REASONABLE SERVICE to be a living sacrifice unto God.. when we do believe that HE died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that there is no greater love than a man laying down His life for His friends... then that should become our will... to willingly lay our life down for Him, and to serve Him out of immense gratitude... never out of obligation or demand, even though that may be true as well.. but God doesn't force anyone to lay down their life for Him... they must do that willingly.

That's one of the miracles of the power of the gospel... it can and often does bring people to the point of forsaking all that they have, to be with Christ... this was especially true in the first century church, when a Jew would lose all ties with family etc, for choosing to follow Christ.

For the most part, I actually agree with this.

 

[Hammster]

There is a distinction between election and salvation. We were elected before the foundation of the world. But that doesn't mean we were saved before the foundation of the world.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

There is a distinction between election and salvation. We were elected before the foundation of the world. But that doesn't mean we were saved before the foundation of the world.

Great point!!

 

[nobdysfool]

A point which won't be conceded, because this entire argument against unconditional election would collapse like a house of cards, if the point were conceded. The real agenda here is to attack Calvinism, and by extension, Calvinists.

 

[A New Dawn]

There is a distinction between election and salvation. We were elected before the foundation of the world. But that doesn't mean we were saved before the foundation of the world.

We also weren't saved when Christ died for us. We were elected for salvation, and both the election and the means to salvation were accomplished long (long) before we were even conceived. My point was that the plan was set in motion before we were around to make a choice in the matter.

 

[nobdysfool]

It is error to conflate the cost of discipleship with election. It is error to make the cost of discipleship the basis of election, and the reason for election. It is error to claim that we are elected after we believe, and choose Christ, because that makes election nothing but a reward, wages due for right actions. It is not self-centered to believe that one is elect, nor is it a source of pride. It is humbling, and a cause for worship of God and praise and thanksgiving for His Grace, because we know we did n ot deserve such Grace, whereas, the believer in conditional election (and by this he means conditions which he believes he has met), is boasting in himself, and is claiming that it was because he believed, and chose Christ, and started down the road of discipleship, that God elected him. It is confusing election with salvation, which are not the same, and never are referred to as the same in any passage of scripture.

Talk about man-centered! The Calvinist teaching is God-honoring, and God-centered, despite the many times it has been called man-centered, without justification or proof. The facts prove the Calvinist position to be Biblical, beyond any gainsaying or claims to the contrary.

 

[Ghost air]

Or to put it in the words of scripture..."we are chosen before the foundation of the world."

Funny thing is... nowhere does scripture say this.

Scripture says that "we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world"...

Amazing how CHRIST is left out of the statement completely.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Funny thing is... nowhere does scripture say this.

Scripture says that "we were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world"...

Amazing how CHRIST is left out of the statement completely.

You are right! Christians were "chosen in Christ" before the world began. What does that mean to you?

 

[Ghost air]

You are right! Christians were "chosen in Christ" before the world began. What does that mean to you?

It means exactly what it says... chosen IN CHRIST... (my emphasis on Christ)..

1. WHEN were you placed into the body of CHRIST...?

The same book teaches us in simplicity... it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel, and AFTER we believed... it was THEN that God placed us into the body of CHRIST...

Prior to being in Christ, we were condemned in our Adamic nature... and there were conditions to come to Christ...

The LORD said plainly, if any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me...

Does this apply to you ?

 

[Terrence Theodore]

It means exactly what it says... chosen IN CHRIST... (my emphasis on Christ)..

1. WHEN were you placed into the body of CHRIST...?

The same book teaches us in simplicity... it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel, and AFTER we believed... it was THEN that God placed us into the body of CHRIST...

Prior to being in Christ, we were condemned in our Adamic nature... and there were conditions to come to Christ...

The LORD said plainly, if any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me...

Does this apply to you ?

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting what you're saying. Are you saying that we were chosen "in Christ" before the world began, or chosen "in Christ" after we believed?

 

[nobdysfool]

He's clearly saying that we were chosen AFTER we believed, thereby showing that he believes that election is a reward for right behavior. According to this theology, we must first prove ourselves worthy of election by believing on Christ, repenting, and starting down the road of discipleship, and THEN God elects us, chooses us, and places us in Christ. This is nothing but man-centered works religion. It is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ

 

[Ghost air]

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting what you're saying. Are you saying that we were chosen "in Christ" before the world began, or chosen "in Christ" after we believed?

I'm asking YOU to tell me WHEN God placed you into CHRIST... and WHY didn't God choose you before you were in Christ...?

I'm also asking if God's word applied to YOU personally... iow, did YOU need to repent, and take up your cross to follow Christ... or did God waive His word for you personally..?

 

[Ghost air]

My point was that the plan was set in motion before we were around to make a choice in the matter.

This is a good point imo... and it speaks to ELECTION... we do not have a choice in what God elected (CHOSE) before the foundation of the world, specifically, that salvation would be through HIS SON.

NOW, to suggest that there are no conditions for our salvation is not the same thing... but imo, it's very close. We actually CANNOT save ourselves because that is a miraculous act of God when He places us into CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit of God...

BUT THERE ARE CONDITIONS for being placed into CHRIST...

1. REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD...

2. FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST...

This is why Paul makes it clear in Eph as to the timing... ie, as to WHEN God places us into the body of Christ.

It is AFTER WE TRUST in Christ, AFTER WE HEAR the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER WE BELEIVE, that we are sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit.

You and I (no person) are not exempt from the demands of the gospel... and only God knows the heart... when He sees repentance and faith in His Son, then He places us into CHRIST and we are saved by His miraculous act.

We can't walk with God until we agree with God... and all must agree that there are none good but one (GOD), and that if any man will come after Christ, then he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow CHRIST.

That's not only being a living sacrifice unto God, it's being a willing sacrifice unto God... and that's what God wants to see... is your willingness to SERVE HIM out of GRATITUDE, and THANKSGIVING.

 

[A New Dawn]

This is a good point imo... and it speaks to ELECTION... we do not have a choice in what God elected (CHOSE) before the foundation of the world, specifically, that salvation would be through HIS SON.

NOW, to suggest that there are no conditions for our salvation is not the same thing... but imo, it's very close. We actually CANNOT save ourselves because that is a miraculous act of God when He places us into CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit of God...

BUT THERE ARE CONDITIONS for being placed into CHRIST...

1. REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD...

2. FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST...

This is why Paul makes it clear in Eph as to the timing... ie, as to WHEN God places us into the body of Christ.

It is AFTER WE TRUST in Christ, AFTER WE HEAR the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER WE BELEIVE, that we are sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit.

You and I (no person) are not exempt from the demands of the gospel... and only God knows the heart... when He sees repentance and faith in His Son, then He places us into CHRIST and we are saved by His miraculous act.

We can't walk with God until we agree with God... and all must agree that there are none good but one (GOD), and that if any man will come after Christ, then he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow CHRIST.

That's not only being a living sacrifice unto God, it's being a willing sacrifice unto God... and that's what God wants to see... is your willingness to SERVE HIM out of GRATITUDE, and THANKSGIVING.

I'm not seeing in Saul's story where he is on the road to Damascus that he was repentant before God's intervention in his life. Can you show me where Saul repented prior to his conversion? Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not seeing in Saul's story where he is on the road to Damascus that he was repentant before God's intervention in his life. Can you show me where Saul repented prior to his conversion? Thanks.

Good luck. I'm still waiting for any kind of explanation that says that being sealed is the same as being indwelt. All I am getting is indignation that I don't believe it is the same thing.

 

[Ghost air]

I'm not seeing in Saul's story where he is on the road to Damascus that he was repentant before God's intervention in his life. Can you show me where Saul repented prior to his conversion? Thanks.

IMO, Paul is a special case; he was raised up specifically to be an APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES... a huge office to say the least.

With that said, I believe that there are similarities between Saul's conversion and any other Christian conversion... the light which stopped him dead in his tracks on the way to persecute Christ's church is what I believe to be the same TRUE LIGHT which hits us between the eyes at some point in our life.

I believe that Paul's testimony (within his letters to the church of God, and the book of Acts), clearly shows GODLY SORROW, REPENTANCE toward GOD, and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ... we don't see it in the story on the road to Damascus, although we do read about his testimony elsewhere... ie, that he did these things out of ignorance... but when he was 'exposed' to the grace of God in Christ, that changed everything.

Paul is the one who teaches us that he held nothing back, teaching both Jew and Gentile alike... REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD and FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST...

The story of the Philippian Jailor doesn't say much about repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... but it's in there imo... and that's what the miracle of the gospel does... it produces GODLY SORROW when we realize the staggering truth that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS...

In short though... it's a little difficult to put an Apostle to the Gentiles on the same page as the rest of us... we're not the apostles of Christ... we're certainly in Christ, but not associated with the office of an Apostle... and specifically, the Apostle to the GENTILES.