"Choose you this day" - SDA or Jews? Where does the Sabbath begin/end?

[Your Neighbor]

You have a legitimate observation, Neighbor,

You bet I do.

... and the SDA's on this forum are intentionally ignoring it.

You bet they are. But I am SDA, too. Traditional. Conservative. Believer in 1844, the IJ, the SOP, health reform, dress reform, etc... Look at my signature.

 

[RND]

RND, the only reason it is Friday at sundown in LA is because the dateline is west of LA. If the dateline moved east of LA, let's say through the Atlantic, the same evening/morning weekly cycle that begins this Friday at sundown would be Thursday at sundown next week.

The point is no matter where Friday at sundown is the sabbath starts.

If you still, after all these posts and graphics, don't get this fact, you probably missed a few too many days in middle school.

Uh, that was a completely unneccessary comment. Just because your post is difficult at best to understand doesn't mean one is uneducated.

 

[Your Neighbor]

RND, take a trip to Tonga and look out the window and try to tell the Tongans which day is which.

...Move that dateline over a country or two, and you have just changed the day that is reckoned as the sabbath for many souls. This has already happened in the Philippines, Alaska, Samoa, Fiji, & Kiribati. See http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm

SDA's worship on Sunday in Tonga because of this kind of moving of the dateline. "Accordingly, Tonga is the only place in the world where Seventh-day Adventists observe their Sabbath on Sunday." http://www.frommers.com/destinations/tonga/3039020416.html

"The International Date Line forms a loop around the islands, thereby making them a day ahead of Samoa, even though Samoa is almost due north of Tonga. Members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church therefore maintain that a Tongan Sunday is really a Saturday..." http://www.usatoday.travel-guides.com/Country.jsp?continent=aus&country=ton

In the 1960s, our people were shocked to read, in the latest issue of the National Geographic, that our churches in Tonga (earlier called the Friendly Islands) were keeping the Bible Sabbath on Sunday.

"Tongans are scrupulous observers of the Wesleyan Sabbath, and it is possible to be arrested for fishing on Sunday. Even the Seventh-day Adventists, who elsewhere take Saturday as their Sabbath, here observe the Sabbath on Sunday. The local Adventist pastor explained his church's stand to me.
" 'When God made the world, He made the day go from west to east,' he said. 'On the map, the so-called Date Line actually makes a jog to the east here. We maintain that what is called Sunday in Tonga is actually Saturday, since we are really on the eastern side of the Date Line [if it ran in a straight line]."--Luis Mrden, "The Friendly Isles of Tonga, National Geographic, March 1968, p. 358.

 

[Your Neighbor]

...Uh, that was a completely unneccessary comment.

Maybe it isn't necessary, but you have made it obvious.
Who is flaming whom? This topic is over your head, with all due respect. That's not a flame.

 

[RND]

RND, take a trip to Tonga and look out the window and try to tell the Tongans which day is which.

When the sun goes down on Friday in Tonga, what day is it to the Tongans?

 

[Your Neighbor]

The point is no matter where Friday at sundown is the sabbath starts.

But what one calls Friday may be Saturday or Thursday. You don't get that, do you?

 

[RND]

Maybe it isn't necessary, but you have made it obvious.

The sabbath is not measured by a day determined by midnight to midnight chronology. It is measured by sundown to sundown Bible chronology. There is a huge difference and yet it is so simple even a child can understand it.

Who is flaming whom?

Will leave that to the mods to decide.

 

[Your Neighbor]

When the sun goes down on Friday in Tonga, what day is it to the Tongans?

Ha, ha. That's just the point. In 2008, Friday at sundown is considered Thursday at sundown for SDA's, in their weekly day count. But that's not the way it used to be.

 

[AndrewK788]

All I know our God is an awesome God and he never gave us the Sabbath with the intent of loopholes to snare us in. God judges one's heart, not what time of day it is. If one kept the Sabbath and found out the next day you actually had not kept the Sabbath but it was in fact Sunday, I don't think our Lord will hold that against you.

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." Titus 3:9

"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels." 2 Timothy 2:23

There's my 2 cents.

 

[Your Neighbor]

... If one kept the Sabbath and found out the next day you actually had not kept the Sabbath but it was in fact Sunday, I don't think our Lord will hold that against you.

I agree. But what we are talking about is not something that is done ignorantly, at least in the future, especially in the light of what SDA's teach in regard to the mark of the beast and Sunday legislation. Papal sabbath or sabbath of the LORD; first day of the week or seventh day of the week. (In Tonga, could both days be the same? In other countries, too?)

 

[RND]

But what one calls Friday may be Saturday or Thursday. You don't get that, do you?

Nope.

A day is either the next day or the same day that is being observed.

For example at anyone time in the world there is either Monday or Sunday/Sunday or Saturday/Saturday or Friday/Friday or Thursday/Thursday or Wednesday/Wednesday or Tuesday/Tuesday or Monday.

Never, ever is it Monday in one part of the world and Wednesday or Saturday in another. Never.

In fact, when it's 11:45pm on Tuesday in Pago Pago, New Guinea it's Tuesday at 12:45am in Honolulu, Hawaii. So interestingly, for a brief moment in time it's the same day all over the world.

But when it comes to the sabbath it all starts at sundown....no matter where one is at.

 

[Your Neighbor]

but true!

 

[RND]

Ha, ha. That's just the point. In 2008, Friday at sundown is considered Thursday at sundown for SDA's, in their weekly day count. But that's not the way it used to be.

You mean they don't have Friday's in Tonga?

 

[RND]

 

[Your Neighbor]

You mean they don't have Friday's in Tonga?

The day that Tongans (non-SDA's) call Friday, Adventist Tongans call Friday, too. But Adventists consider Friday the 5th day of the week. Does that make any sense to you?

Adventist on Tonga consider Sunday as the seventh day of the week.

 

[Your Neighbor]

huh?

 

[RND]

but true!

Intent.

For months at a time there is no sunrise or sunset for folks at the top or bottom of the world.

Does their sabbath last months? Or do they celebrate the sabbath only once every few months?


The International Dateline
and the Weekly Sabbath
© Carl D. Franklin
November 26, 2004

Some have expressed the opinion that the International Dateline has led to observance of the weekly Sabbath on the wrong day in part of the world. They believe that Sabbath keepers in the nations east of Jerusalem, between Jerusalem (longitude 35 degrees) and the International Dateline (longitude 180 degrees), are observing the weekly Sabbath one day too early. Their belief is based on the assumption that those living eastward from Jerusalem should not begin observing the weekly Sabbath before Jerusalem does. They maintain that only those living westward from Jerusalem to the International Dateline are observing the Sabbath at the proper time. In their view, people in these countries should continue to observe the weekly Sabbath on Saturday, but those living eastward from Jerusalem should keep the weekly Sabbath on Sunday.

Let’s consider how Sabbath observance in Australia would be affected by this proposed change. At the present, Australians begin to observe the weekly Sabbath 9 hours before it arrives in Jerusalem, allowing an overlap of 15 hours of shared Sabbath observance between Sydney and Jerusalem. Let us assume that Australians decide to postpone their observance of the weekly Sabbath one day and keep it from sunset Saturday evening to sunset Sunday evening. Doing so would theoretically correct the day “lost” due to the present placement of the International Dateline and would resolve the supposed problem of Sabbath observance beginning in Sydney before it begins at Jerusalem.

If such a change were instituted at the beginning of 2005, here is what would take effect: The sun at Sydney would set at 8:10 PM Saturday evening, January 1, beginning the first day of the week. When “Sabbath” observance began in Sydney it would be 11:10 AM Saturday morning in Jerusalem—the Sabbath day having begun there at sunset, 4:46 PM Friday evening. The Sabbath day in Jerusalem would end at 4:46 PM Saturday evening, corresponding to Sunday, 1:45 AM Sydney time. The new Sunday “Sabbath” of Sydney would overlap the Sabbath of Jerusalem from 11:10 AM to 4:46 PM Jerusalem time, a period of 5 hours and 36 minutes. Thus the present overlap of 15 hours of shared Sabbath observance would be reduced by nearly two thirds. Moreover, Sabbath keepers would be observing the first day of the week—not the seventh day.

Would moving the International Dateline to the vicinity of Jerusalem correct this problem, as has been proposed? Some would have the dateline run through the middle of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Others say that it should run along the eastern border of the State of Israel. Another view is that the dateline should run through modern Iraq, the proclaimed site of the ancient Garden of Eden. Supporters of these views claim that moving the International Dateline would enable those living at the longitude of Jerusalem to be the first in the world to begin Sabbath observance, and the rest of the world would observe the Sabbath as it came to them.

Would instituting this change in the International Dateline make the Sabbath arrive in Jerusalem before it arrives in Australia? Suppose the IDL were moved westward from the 180th meridian to the 35th meridian, which runs through the State of Israel. The Sabbath would still begin at sunset, Friday evening, January 1, at 4:46 PM in Israel. What time and day would it be in Sydney? Well, it would still be 1:45 AM, Saturday morning, which means that the Sabbath day would still begin in Sydney before arriving in Jerusalem. Why is this so? Because the world revolves counterclockwise on its axis once every 24 hours, and the weekly cycle of seven 24-hour days cannot be changed.

The only way for an Australian to begin observing the seventh day of the week after it arrives in Jerusalem is to travel to a point west of Jerusalem and remain there until the sun sets on Friday. The Australian could then begin observing the Sabbath after those living in Jerusalem. He cannot do so as long as he is in Australia. It is impossible to do so in Australia because Friday sunset reaches the Sabbath keeper in Australia before it does the Sabbath keeper in Jerusalem. The only way to make the Sabbath arrive in Jerusalem before it arrives in Australia would be to reverse the rotation of the earth.

Moving the International Dateline to Jerusalem cannot change the sequence of the days in the weekly cycle. Doing so would, however, throw Jerusalem into incredible turmoil! Imagine the hustle and bustle at sunset in Jerusalem. On the west side of the IDL it would begin the Sabbath, while on the east side of the line it would begin Friday. The west side of Jerusalem could travel to the east side and conduct business as usual. Likewise, 24 hours later, Saturday evening would arrive for the west side of Jerusalem while the Sabbath was just beginning on the east side. Jews could travel to the west side and business could go on as usual.

This scenario could occur anywhere on the earth if the International Dateline were located across a continent or large land mass rather than across an expanse of water, as it is now. Jewish authorities are well aware of this fact. They have already considered the issues involved in Sabbath observance in various parts of the world, especially for Jewish businessmen who must cross the International Dateline on a regular basis. The following article shows the problems that would result if the IDL were relocated, as some rabbis feel it should be.

 

[Your Neighbor]

Do a double take.

It's the same sunset that brings sabbath to Kiribati that brings Friday to Hawaii. Surely, you see this now?
Part of the islands of Kiribati used to be on the other side of the dateline in 1999. Their week count has been changed, too.

 

[Your Neighbor]

All of these images assume that the International dateline is the right one. If any of the other 4 Jewish datelines are right, the day count would differ for many countries.

 

[RND]

Do a double take.

It's the same sunset that brings sabbath to Kiribati that brings Friday to Hawaii. Surely, you see this now?
Part of the islands of Kiribati used to be on the other side of the dateline in 1999. Their week count has been changed, too.

It makes -zero- difference. They are observing the sabbath.

So that the nation of Kiribati can be on the same time throughout their nation they have one time zone. Otherwise, the nation would be split in two with one part of the nation always being one day ahead of the other.

There are roughly 105,000 people in the nation. It's estimated that there are about 2% SDA in the thirty two island chain. Fortunately they still have a sabbath. God has provided.