Choose a hand ...

[jorgfe]

Welcome!

I come from a sixth-generation Seventh-day Adventist background. For 54 years I was a staunch supporter of Seventh-day Adventism. Two years ago the Lord led me through intensive study of the Bible out of Adventism and into mainstream Christianity.

Something that troubled me was what I perceived as a sense of arrogance within the Adventist teachings that I was taught. Adventism's traditional position regarding the remnant is spiritually arrogant and highly cultic. When you boil it all down, the bottom line is that Seventh-day Adventists believe they have the remnant message for the last days. They're calling all other Christians to 'leave Babylon and join us, God's true church.'

In its traditional belief on the remnant, they've positioned themselves as the Noah's ark of the end times. Many Adventist theologians don't believe this, yet it remains part of Adventist heritage. Unfortunately many Adventists still hold to this position.

I believe Scripture reveals this teaching is sin against the rest of the Body of Christ. It isn't biblical. When I was an Adventist I could say that we're the remnant, but we can't say for sure that we're saved. The remnant will never call themselves 'remnant.' God gives that name from his vantage point. We sin against the Body of Christ by claiming to be the remnant.

Over the past two years I have come to the conclusion that Seventh-day Adventism has two hands.

Let's choose a hand ...

The Right Hand - Adventism's message seeking acceptance and inclusion as a Christian church


On the one hand there is a message promoting a positive image, seeking acceptance and inclusion.

• We Adventists are good people and live good lives
• We believe in families and traditional family values
• We are your friends, neighbors and family
• We call you Christians
• We are Christians
• The Seventh-day Adventist Church is a Christian church
• We believe in God
• We believe in Jesus
• We believe in a Second Coming and have the name "Advent" in the name of our Church (Seventh-day Adventist)

Why would you not accept us a Christians?

The Left Hand - Adventism's message declaring the unacceptability and exclusion of all other churches


On the other hand there is the Seventh-day Adventist Church's negative message rejecting and excluding all other churches from true Christianity.

• We are the only true church
• We are the only living church
• All other churches are wrong and unacceptable as true Christianity
• All other churches are harlots of Babylon
• There is no excuse for the existence of any other church
• Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body
• All other churches' creeds and doctrines are an abomination
• All the ministers in your churches are corrupt
• All your churches are divided and cannot get along
• All your churches are churches of the devil
• All other so-called Christian churches are completely apostate
• The fullness of the gospel disappeared from the earth until Seventh-day Adventism arrived in the 1800's
• The gospel you preach is false
• The true gospel can only be found in the Seventh-day Adventist Church
• Your ministers are hirelings of Satan
• The name Seventh-day Adventist is a standing rebuke to the Protestant world
• The Seventh-day Adventist Church alone are God's remnant people
• The Seventh-day Adventist General Conference is God's highest authority on earth
• Satan is now in heaven answering the prayers of non-Adventists

The obvious conclusion that I came to is the question, "Why is Seventh-day Adventism seeking acceptance from the 'Unacceptables'"?

Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[Avonia]

I come from a sixth-generation Seventh-day Adventist background. For 54 years I was a staunch supporter of Seventh-day Adventism. Two years ago the Lord led me through intensive study of the Bible out of Adventism and into mainstream Christianity.

Gilbert Jorgensen

Welcome Gilbert! Glad you stopped by.

My question for you is this - if God recently led you out of the church, where was God the last 54 years? And where was the Holy Spirit for the last 54 years?

 

[Blackice]

Jorgfe - I like a lot of your points, I definitely lean toward your right hand there. I think it is a fair assessment of what I have seen as well to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[jorgfe]

Welcome Gilbert! Glad you stopped by.

My question for you is this - if God recently led you out of the church, where was God the last 54 years? And where was the Holy Spirit for the last 54 years?

Avonia,

Thank you for your thoughtful question -- and that is a good one.

I am presuming that even though you distinguish between God and the Holy Spirit that you believe that they are one and the same, eg. a triune God as opposed to "three Heavenly Dignitaries".

To join you in your question, I can think of numerous parallels. Perhaps you can help me with the answer.

1. Martin Luther - Roman Catholic
2. The disciples - believers in Judaism
3. Through his simple sermon on the day of Pentecost, Peter the fisherman saw 3,000 people saved (Acts 2:14–41).
4. The next chapter of Acts also reports amazing results. Peter, a second time, delivers a simple sermon and 5,000 people are brought into the kingdom of God (3:12 through 4:4).
5. How about Saul on the road to Damascus?

Where would you say that God was in the lives of each of these people before they became Christians?

Your brother in Christ,

Gilbert

 

[jorgfe]

Jorgfe - I like a lot of your points, I definitely lean toward your right hand there. I think it is a fair assessment of what I have seen as well to a greater or lesser degree.

As a faculty kid at growing up Andrews University, I remember well the patronizing attitude that we as a large Adventist community had toward the poor ignorant heathens that lived outside the campus.

I remember, as a boy, going every Sabbath afternoon with my dad to the side door of the 2000+ member Pioneer Memorial Church to the literature room where we would pick up our special set of "Bible Speaks" lessons to canvas our assigned part of the outlying community with. Each week those who agreed to listen to what we had to share with them were carefully coached through the Amazing Facts-type lessons to make sure that they arrived at the right conclusions from the verses selected for them in the lesson. Looking back, the so-called "Bible Speaks" lessons were more like a catachism class than anything remotely resembling the type of expository study that I have been introduced to over the past two years.

It would be interesting to hear from our resident Adventists here about how they propose that we should relate to such official statements as the following by a personal friend of mine, past General Conference President, Elder Robert Pierson?

The June 1976 issue of Ministry Magazine, the official publication for Seventh-day Adventist ministers has a rather enlightening article. The title of the article, beginning on page 7, is “What It Means to Be Part of — The Highest Authority That God Has Upon Earth”.

At a General Conference worship, Jan. 9, 1976, General Conference President Robert H. Pierson said:

"When you and I joined the General Conference family something special happened to us. When we begin work in the General Conference office we become part of what inspiration describes as God’s highest authority on earth. … All of us are something special in God’s sight. Our relationship to our church, to the world field, to one another, and to the work entrusted to us is unique. We are part of ‘the highest authority that God has on earth.’… This office is the headquarters of our Commanding Officer — the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. These three buildings are not ordinary buildings…. These buildings constitute a consecrated place where God, through His appointed servants —you, me — directs His worldwide work. … As those of us here on the General Conference staff continue our unique service for Him, let us remember that we are daily, hourly, momentarily a part of a group of leaders that constitute the highest authority of God upon earth…"
​

I guess the Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelicals and others are not part of the Body of Christ? And what about the great reformers and preachers of the past that we studied about in our Bible classes?

A triumphalistic church and a triumphalistic leadership will not be quick to repent and to openly acknowledge mistakes. Unqualified admission that mistakes have been made are rare in Adventism. A thoughtful observer could not but see that this Rome-like ecclesiology springs from a soteriology of the same character.


Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[Avonia]

Thank you for your thoughtful question -- and that is a good one.

You are welcome!

I am presuming that even though you distinguish between God and the Holy Spirit that you believe that they are one and the same, eg. a triune God as opposed to "three Heavenly Dignitaries".

I used "Holy Spirit" because it's a familiar frame of reference. I recognize this as a belief and not something I know.

To join you in your question, I can think of numerous parallels. Perhaps you can help me with the answer.

1. Martin Luther - Roman Catholic
2. The disciples - believers in Judaism
3. Through his simple sermon on the day of Pentecost, Peter the fisherman saw 3,000 people saved (Acts 2:14–41).
4. The next chapter of Acts also reports amazing results. Peter, a second time, delivers a simple sermon and 5,000 people are brought into the kingdom of God (3:12 through 4:4).
5. How about Saul on the road to Damascus?

Where would you say that God was in the lives of each of these people before they became Christians?

My sense is that there is nowhere for God to go - or come from. And that is why I was curious whether you also had a sense that God "led" you into the SDA community as well as out of it. I'm asking this at a higher level than the obvious fact that you were born into it.

 

[sentipente]

Something that troubled me was what I perceived as a sense of arrogance within the Adventist teachings that I was taught.

I hope you are ready for the sense of arrogance in mainstream Christian teachings. Christianity is not exactly an inclusive religion. You need to remember that Christianity is not a majority philosophy.

 

[jorgfe]

My sense is that there is nowhere for God to go - or come from. And that is why I was curious whether you also had a sense that God "led" you into the SDA community as well as out of it. I'm asking this at a higher level than the obvious fact that you were born into it.

Even though I have lived various places I never knew what it was like to not be an Adventist until I was 56. My extended family on both sides were all Adventists as well.

How about you? Have you ever personally known what it was like to not be an Adventist, but to have some other theological belief system?

Your friend,

Gilbert

 

[jorgfe]

I hope you are ready for the sense of arrogance in mainstream Christian teachings. Christianity is not exactly an inclusive religion. You need to remember that Christianity is not a majority philosophy.

sentipente,

Thank you for sharing your observation with me.

I was reared in a very exclusive religious community -- Seventh-day Adventism. I had been taught from a small child that our particular church group included the only true followers of Jesus Christ. Eventually I realized that this was not true and decided to leave this environment.

Jesus led me into the full freedom of the gospel, and the absolute assurance that I have been saved, and that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. No one, no demon, no person, no false doctrine, no legalism can separate me from the love, the eternal love of my Savior and God.

Your friend,

Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[Avonia]

How about you? Have you ever personally known what it was like to not be an Adventist, but to have some other theological belief system?

Adventism is a sliver of my philosophical system. I participate in the community because I care about it, and I was born into it, and I think it can evolve.

My knowing of God comes from everywhere. Religions, philosophies, relationships, science, art - everything.

My big questions are no better answered in one Christian community over another - they are all based on similar assumptions. From the perspective of what I'm most curious about, they are barely differentiable.

As for your story, you know you are better situated where you are now - so it was a good move.

 

[jorgfe]

Adventism is a sliver of my philosophical system. I participate in the community because I care about it, and I was born into it, and I think it can evolve.

My knowing of God comes from everywhere. Religions, philosophies, relationships, science, art - everything.

My big questions are no better answered in one Christian community over another - they are all based on similar assumptions. From the perspective of what I'm most curious about, they are barely differentiable.

That's very interesting. My conclusion is somewhat different.

My study of the Bible has led me to the conclusion that it can be implicitly trusted and that it is the Word of God. It tells me that amidst all the confusion that there are only two choices -- a "gospel of adoption" and a "gospel of probation". It tells me that they are mutually exclusive.

Which one do you believe in?

Your friend,

Gilbert

 

[Avonia]

It tells me that amidst all the confusion that there are only two choices -- a "gospel of adoption" and a "gospel of probation".

Both miss that our status as children of the Creator is not changeable - no adoption necessary.

 

[sentipente]

I was reared in a very exclusive religious community -- Seventh-day Adventism. I had been taught from a small child that our particular church group included the only true followers of Jesus Christ. Eventually I realized that this was not true and decided to leave this environment.

Jesus led me into the full freedom of the gospel, and the absolute assurance that I have been saved, and that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. No one, no demon, no person, no false doctrine, no legalism can separate me from the love, the eternal love of my Savior and God.

The first paragraph does not really have anything to do with the second as a response to my observation. At the end of the day Adventism is merely an extreme version of what is standard within Christianity.

 

[jorgfe]

Both miss that our status as children of the Creator is not changeable - no adoption necessary.

Ephesians 1:4-6 (New International Version)
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

​

Really? No adoption was necessary?

Did God make a mistake?

And at what point was this adoption consumated that Paul describes? Or was Paul just an incompetent writer?

Gilbert

 

[Avonia]

Really? No adoption was necessary?

Did God make a mistake?

And at what point was this adoption consummated that Paul describes?

Why are you looking to Paul for what is clearly revealed in how we mirror our Father?

Adoption is a way for us to understand our sense of separation. It is an idea tailored for a people who assumed God was in another place. And had abandoned them.

And yes, Paul had an incomplete understanding of many things. He told us so.

 

[sentipente]

Jorge, you are still making the same mistake that led to you to leave Adventism. You are replacing the movie with the review. Paul is not the authority on the state of the universe.

 

[jorgfe]

Why are you looking to Paul for what is clearly revealed in how we mirror our Father?

Adoption is a way for us to understand our sense of separation. It is an idea tailored for a people who assumed God was in another place. And had abandoned them.

And yes, Paul had an incomplete understanding of many things. He told us so.

Please describe to me in more detail your understanding of how "we mirror our Father". What meaning are you attempting to convey?

Gilbert

 

[jorgfe]

Jorge, you are still making the same mistake that led to you to leave Adventism. You are replacing the movie with the review. Paul is not the authority on the state of the universe.

That is a fascinating viewpoint.

Who would you say is? Who would you trust as a reliable authority on the state of the universe? And what is your definition for "state of the universe"? I am starting a glossary. I have one with over two hundred words common to Adventists, but I see that you are coming up with some new ones.

Gilbert

 

[sentipente]

That is a fascinating viewpoint.

Who would you say is? Who would you trust as a reliable authority on the state of the universe? And what is your definition for "state of the universe"? I am starting a glossary. I have one with over two hundred words common to Adventists, but I see that you are coming up with some new ones.

Gilbert

I don't know your educational experience, but you should have no difficulty understanding that, aside of the Creator, the most reliable authority on the state of the universe is the universe itself. Paul also came to the same conclusion in Rom. 1:20 where he says that the hidden things of the Creator are revealed in the things that He made.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I must applaud the fact that we've yet to see the word "fundamentalist" in this discussion! Hopefully, this will continue . . . . It seems that we find ourselves back to a question that is similar to many others that have come up in this forum.

Q: If Paul says we are adopted and Avonia says we are not, which of them is correct? Both? Neither?

BFA