Choose a hand ...

[Avonia]

Please describe to me in more detail your understanding of how "we mirror our Father". What meaning are you attempting to convey?

Gilbert

Being a father gives us insight about fatherhood that can never be transmitted via a book. Because we are created in our Creator's image, what we learn through loving our children is how we understand how our Father/Mother/God loves us. The potential of the Bible is realized when it helps us move more deeply into our own experience - not replaces it.

Said more simply, everything we need to know about "the plan of salvation" is continuously revealed in everything around us. How could it not be?

 

[sentipente]

I must applaud the fact that we've yet to see the word "fundamentalist" in this discussion! Hopefully, this will continue . . . . It seems that we find ourselves back to a question that is similar to many others that have come up in this forum.

Q: If Paul says we are adopted and Avonia says we are not, which of them is correct? Both? Neither?

BFA

If Paul says that women should keep silence in church Avonia says they should not, which of them is correct? Both? Neither?

The list can be extended but the answer remains the same. Conflicts are resolved by reexamining the evidence. If we are created by God then we are members of his family and can never need to be adopted? The prodigal son did not need to be adopted when he returned home. Obviously, Paul was being extremely partisan in his view. He was referencing the artificial boundaries humans have developed over the years.

 

[sentipente]

Said more simply, everything we need to know about "the plan of salvation" is continuously revealed in everything around us. How could it not be?

When people suggest that humans did not know how to express the love of God until Jesus came I wonder what they believe a mother's love is all about.

 

[Avonia]

I must applaud the fact that we've yet to see the word "fundamentalist" in this discussion! Hopefully, this will continue . . . . It seems that we find ourselves back to a question that is similar to many others that have come up in this forum.

Q: If Paul says we are adopted and Avonia says we are not, which of them is correct? Both? Neither?

BFA

(1) true, (2) not true, (3) both true and not true, (4) neither true nor not true

We teach the first two. Not so good at understanding the importance of the second two.

 

[Avonia]

He was referencing the artificial boundaries humans have developed over the years.

If only we understood this insight.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If Paul says that women should keep silence in church Avonia says they should not, which of them is correct? Both? Neither?

Since I know Paul's credentials and know little of Avonia's, I'd place higher value on Paul's advice.

The list can be extended but the answer remains the same.

If a list is to be created, are you planning on noting the difference between advice (such as "woman should") and a statement of fact (such as "He predestined us to adoption as sons").

Conflicts are resolved by reexamining the evidence. If we are created by God then we are members of his family and can never need to be adopted?

"The universe" tells us no such thing. A child who has been procreated may indeed require adoption. This is the very analogy that Paul is making.

The prodigal son did not need to be adopted when he returned home.

And what of Mephibosheth, son of Jonathan? Or Hadasseh, adopted by Mordecai?

Obviously, Paul was being extremely partisan in his view. He was referencing the artificial boundaries humans have developed over the years.

Let's allow him the opportunity to speak for himself:

" 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
15For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
16do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1
​

BFA

 

[AzA]

Metaphors all point us to some aspect of reality, but there's a religious tendency to assume that any given metaphor is reality.
Adoption is as much a metaphor as is redemption and buying-back, slavery and servanthood, artisanship and pot-making, life and death, salt seasoning, and light dispersal.
Every metaphor is given in context, and when that context shifts, the metaphor's usefulness for its new context will also shift. And so new metaphors arise -- and they also teach us something.

 

[sonic purity]

Welcome!




On the other hand there is the Seventh-day Adventist Church's negative message rejecting and excluding all other churches from true Christianity.

• We are the only true church
• We are the only living church
• All other churches are wrong and unacceptable as true Christianity
• All other churches are harlots of Babylon
• There is no excuse for the existence of any other church
• Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body
• All other churches' creeds and doctrines are an abomination
• All the ministers in your churches are corrupt
• All your churches are divided and cannot get along
• All your churches are churches of the devil
• All other so-called Christian churches are completely apostate
• The fullness of the gospel disappeared from the earth until Seventh-day Adventism arrived in the 1800's
• The gospel you preach is false
• The true gospel can only be found in the Seventh-day Adventist Church
• Your ministers are hirelings of Satan
• The name Seventh-day Adventist is a standing rebuke to the Protestant world
• The Seventh-day Adventist Church alone are God's remnant people
• The Seventh-day Adventist General Conference is God's highest authority on earth
• Satan is now in heaven answering the prayers of non-Adventists

The obvious conclusion that I came to is the question, "Why is Seventh-day Adventism seeking acceptance from the 'Unacceptables'"?

Gilbert Jorgensen

WOW, that just flies in the face of all God's children. I wish I could understand why religion divides us so. I still have a hard time convincing my wife that catholics are christians. Its like a mental block of some kind. I need to pray on this

 

[JonMiller]

If Paul says that women should keep silence in church Avonia says they should not, which of them is correct? Both? Neither?

The list can be extended but the answer remains the same. Conflicts are resolved by reexamining the evidence. If we are created by God then we are members of his family and can never need to be adopted? The prodigal son did not need to be adopted when he returned home. Obviously, Paul was being extremely partisan in his view. He was referencing the artificial boundaries humans have developed over the years.

In my experience, most conflicts are resolved by looking and understanding what both involved parties are meaning and saying.

This is even the case in science, when you have clear and generally agreed upon evidence.

JM

 

[sentipente]

BFA, you seem to have difficulty differentiating between a single parent and many parents. When you find another being in the Universe who is equal to the Creator at any level let me know.

 

[sentipente]

In my experience, most conflicts are resolved by looking and understanding what both involved parties are meaning and saying.

This is even the case in science, when you have clear and generally agreed upon evidence.

JM

I am hoping you understand that this is included in "re-examining the evidence."

 

[sentipente]

Since I know Paul's credentials and know little of Avonia's, I'd place higher value on Paul's advice.

I am intrigued by this claim. Tell me how your acquaintance with Paul, who was dead when you were born, is more intimate than your acquaintance with Avonia, who engages you in contemporary debate.

 

[Avonia]

Since I know Paul's credentials and know little of Avonia's, I'd place higher value on Paul's advice.

I did not have the privilege of knowing Paul - so I can't say. I have only hearsay. What I can say with much certainty is that I find Avonia's perspective rather compelling.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I am intrigued by this claim. Tell me how your acquaintance with Paul, who was dead when you were born, is more intimate than your acquaintance with Avonia, who engages you in contemporary debate.

Would you find my posts to be more persuasive than Paul's writings? If not, why not?

BFA, you seem to have difficulty differentiating between a single parent and many parents. When you find another being in the Universe who is equal to the Creator at any level let me know.

Sentipente, you seem to have difficulty understanding the underpinnings of an analogy. We are adopted as sons. Your appeal to the equality of parentage is moot.

BFA

 

[sentipente]

Sentipente, you seem to have difficulty understanding the underpinnings of an analogy. We are adopted as sons. Your appeal to the equality of parentage is moot.

BFA

A son cannot be adopted by his own father.

 

[sentipente]

Would you find my posts to be more persuasive than Paul's writings? If not, why not?

I judge a post by its content, not by its author, unless authorship is the issue. No one is always correct or always wrong.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

A son cannot be adopted by his own father.

Why not?

BFA

 

[sentipente]

Something tells me it would be dangerous to respond to that retort.

 

[jorgfe]

That is a fascinating viewpoint.

Who would you say is? Who would you trust as a reliable authority on the state of the universe? And what is your definition for "state of the universe"? I am starting a glossary. I have one with over two hundred words common to Adventists, but I see that you are coming up with some new ones.

Gilbert

I don't know your educational experience, but you should have no difficulty understanding that, aside of the Creator, the most reliable authority on the state of the universe is the universe itself. Paul also came to the same conclusion in Rom. 1:20 where he says that the hidden things of the Creator are revealed in the things that He made.

The "universe itself" is not a "who", it is a "what".

The question was "Who would you trust as a reliable authority on the state of the universe?"

Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[Mankin]

I certainly agree with you on the points made in your OP, albeit I think they are a bit exaggerated. On the local level, you might hear such things uttered by traditional Adventists, but not in the larger churchs. Personally I think the only reason the church has not moved beyond such eschatological teachings is because it does not want a large amount of members leaving the church forming another off shoot. This happened during the 1950s Questions on Doctrine when the Adventist church backed down from their position on perfection theology.