Choices in the Garden of Eden

[Tawhano]

So they committed a wrong, and did so willfully, and they were punished (justly) for it even though they didn't understand what they did was evil. Is that your take?

No that is your take. I am saying they understood what they did was wrong. You are the one trying to tie "evil" into the mix.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No that is your take. I am saying they understood what they did was wrong. You are the one trying to tie "evil" into the mix.

So you are saying that what they did was not evil?

 

[Tawhano]

So you are saying that what they did was not evil?

I answered this already. In order for you to offer rebuttal in a debate you must read and understand your opponents post.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I answered this already. In order for you to offer rebuttal in a debate you must read and understand your opponents post.

I'd be perfectly fine if we never spoke again.

 

[Tawhano]

I'd be perfectly fine if we never spoke again

That would be in your best interest since you do not have answers.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

That would be in your best interest since you do not have answers.

Appealing to my intellectual vanity? I do recall asking you to share your scientific evidence for your beliefs and it was you who did not have answers.

 

[createdtoworship]

Nihilist stated "How were these ignorant beings supposed to know that they should trust God and not the serpent?"

If the serpent created you a few days ago, yes, you can call it God.

but if it didn't then you call God, (the creator), God.

this should be fairly straight forward to the one who is open minded, and willing to debate in an honest fashion.

 

[Alla27]

Nihilist stated "How were these ignorant beings supposed to know that they should trust God and not the serpent?"

If the serpent created you a few days ago, yes, you can call it God.

but if it didn't then you call God, (the creator), God.

this should be fairly straight forward to the one who is open minded, and willing to debate in an honest fashion.

gradyll, did you read the question? if yes, why don't you answer?

 

[createdtoworship]

gradyll, did you read the question? if yes, why don't you answer?

the answer is painfully obvious, that is why.

but, again, if you must.

IF God created you a few days ago, you worship Him.

if a serpent created you, then likewise you worship Him.

get it?

 

[St_Worm2]

IF God created you a few days ago, you worship Him. if a serpent created you, then likewise you worship Him.

Hi Gradyll, I "get it" and you make a great point, of course

I have a completely different question to ask however. Adam lived for 930 years all told, and we know that Seth was born when he was 130 years old (Genesis 5:3 .. I think). Do we know how old he was when Cain was born? I'm trying to work back a bit here because my real interest is in how old Adam was when he fell. Is there any indication anywhere in the Bible that he was only a few days (rather than a few decades) old at that time? The latter (a few decades) makes much more sense to me, as that would have given Adam and Eve time for life to go on and to become comfortable, and thereby complacent/less appreciative of things like their relationship with God (and finally give an interloper, like the snake, the opportunity he was hoping for to ply his craft with them).

So let me know if you know, because, "they were just a few days old", is something I was never taught and is, for any number of other reasons as well, pretty hard for me to believe.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Sketcher]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil seems to be the thing which has given mankind the distinction between good and evil. So if Adam and Eve were unaware of good and evil, or at least the significance of such things, then why did God punishment them for their disobedience? Please explain how this story makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, and you believe it is a literal story, then where do you go from there?

They knew enough at the time to know that they must not disobey.

According to Matthew Henry:

"There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so called because there was a positive revelation of the will of God about this tree, so that by it man might know moral good and evil. What is good? It is good not to eat of this tree. What is evil? It is evil to eat of this tree. In these two trees God set before Adam good and evil, the blessing and the curse."

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sorry to necro this thread, but I was given a surprisingly satisfactory answer to this when discussing it with my mom. She said that when Adam "knew" sin he knew it in the same sense that he later "knew" his wife. In other words, Adam experienced sin when ate that fruit, so it's not necessarily the case that he was intellectually unaware of sin before hand.

I haven't bothered to investigate whether the same Hebrew word for "know" is used in both places. I'll concede the case pending that, with the remarks that 1.) It concerns me that people can find this story remotely coherent without having that knowledge; and 2.) There are still many other problems with the story aside from this (although the story is at least coherent now).

 

[St_Worm2]

She said that when Adam "knew" sin he knew it in the same sense that he later "knew" his wife. In other words, Adam experienced sin when ate that fruit, so it's not necessarily the case that he was intellectually unaware of sin before hand ... I haven't bothered to investigate whether the same Hebrew word for "know" is used in both places.

Hi NV, I'm glad that your mother was able to help you understand that And, just FYI, the word, דָּעָה, יָדַע [yadaʿ], translated as "knew", is used in both Genesis 3:7 and Genesis 4:1.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Moral Orel]

Hi Gradyll, I "get it" and you make a great point, of course

I have a completely different question to ask however. Adam lived for 930 years all told, and we know that Seth was born when he was 130 years old (Genesis 5:3 .. I think). Do we know how old he was when Cain was born? I'm trying to work back a bit here because my real interest is in how old Adam was when he fell. Is there any indication anywhere in the Bible that he was only a few days (rather than a few decades) old at that time? The latter (a few decades) makes much more sense to me, as that would have given Adam and Eve time for life to go on and to become comfortable, and thereby complacent/less appreciative of things like their relationship with God (and finally give an interloper, like the snake, the opportunity he was hoping for to ply his craft with them).

So let me know if you know, because, "they were just a few days old", is something I was never taught and is, for any number of other reasons as well, pretty hard for me to believe.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

They were told to "be fruitful and multiply" before they screwed up and got kicked out. So if they were living in the garden for decades, and not multiplying, then they were already disobeying God before they ate from the tree.

 

[St_Worm2]

...if they were living in the garden for decades, and not multiplying, then they were already disobeying God before they ate from the tree.

Hey Nicholas, first off, thanks for the speedy reply

The only command that we know our first parents disobeyed was the one given specifically to Adam, basically, "don't eat that apple". We're not told how long Adam lived before Eve came along, or how long the two of them lived in the Garden before they fell, are we?

As for God's command to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth", unlike the command concerning the Tree of Knowledge, this one was directed at progenitor and progeny alike. I may have missed it, but I don't remember a timetable associated with the fulfilling of that command, do you? If there is one, it would be an important thing to know, because it was given to mankind in general, not just to our progenitors (as I just mentioned), so whatever was required of them would also be required of us today.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Was God concerned with Eve's informed consent in sexual participation when he told them to be fruitful and multiply?

 

[Moral Orel]

Hey Nicholas, first off, thanks for the speedy reply
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The only command that we know our first parents disobeyed was the one given specifically to Adam, basically, "don't eat that apple". We're not told how long Adam lived before Eve came along, or how long the two of them lived in the Garden before they fell, are we?

As for God's command to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth", unlike the command concerning the Tree of Knowledge, this one was directed at progenitor and progeny alike. I may have missed it, but I don't remember a timetable associated with the fulfilling of that command, do you? If there is one, it would be an important thing to know, because that particular command was given to mankind in general, not just to our progenitors (as I just mentioned), so whatever was required of them would also be required of us today.

Yours and His,
David

Sex was fun from the start, I'm assuming, so I'm assuming they weren't waiting to have sex since they were married from the start. If they were having sex, but willfully not multiplying (if they even knew how to avoid it while still having sex) that seems like a willful attempt to not do what they were commanded to do. I guess that's subjective though. It would be weird to think it would be okay to say, "yeah, yeah God, we'll get around to it in a few decades" though, wouldn't it?

And I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of pregnancy-avoidance-techniques, but one is worth mentioning. How would the timing method work if eve didn't have a cycle yet? Considering her punishment later, it might be reasonable to assume she was always ovulating...

Now I can see some reasons in later times to wait to have kids that I'm sure God would understand, but I can't see any reason for those two to go out of their way to not have any. It's not like they needed to finish college first.

Also, they were made on the sixth day together. At least if we're going by a literal 6-day creation. Genesis 1:26-30 So starting from that day, how long could they wait to have sex? How long would they wait since they were married on that first day?

And lastly, in Genesis 4, it starts with "Now Adam knew his wife..." I may be reading too much into that, and it may be an improper translation anyways (ESV) but it sounds like they didn't have sex till after the garden. Which again, I find hard to believe they would wait even a whole day to start having sex.

 

[St_Worm2]

Was God concerned with Eve's informed consent in sexual participation when he told them to be fruitful and multiply?

He was, but I think He figured that our first parents could work it out between themselves.

His real concerns back then were about 1) establishing a workplace daycare facility so Adam wouldn't be saddled with doing the Mr. Mom thing, 2) extended maternity leave .. for both spouses, of course, and 3) the real biggie, pregnancy coverage for Adam. Several Millennia later, we still don't have it all in place, but hey, at least we finally got that last one done

 

[St_Worm2]

Sex was fun from the start, I'm assuming, so I'm assuming they weren't waiting to have sex since they were married from the start. If they were having sex, but willfully not multiplying (if they even knew how to avoid it while still having sex) that seems like a willful attempt to not do what they were commanded to do. I guess that's subjective though. It would be weird to think it would be okay to say, "yeah, yeah God, we'll get around to it in a few decades" though, wouldn't it?

And I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of pregnancy-avoidance-techniques, but one is worth mentioning. How would the timing method work if eve didn't have a cycle yet? Considering her punishment later, it might be reasonable to assume she was always ovulating...

Now I can see some reasons in later times to wait to have kids that I'm sure God would understand, but I can't see any reason for those two to go out of their way to not have any. It's not like they needed to finish college first.

Also, they were made on the sixth day together. At least if we're going by a literal 6-day creation. Genesis 1:26-30 So starting from that day, how long could they wait to have sex? How long would they wait since they were married on that first day?

And lastly, in Genesis 4, it starts with "Now Adam knew his wife..." I may be reading too much into that, and it may be an improper translation anyways (ESV) but it sounds like they didn't have sex till after the garden. Which again, I find hard to believe they would wait even a whole day to start having sex.

Conjecture can take us to all kinds of places, can't it Since we are into speculation today, consider this, if Eve's pregnancy, that was recorded in Genesis 4:1, happened during the first few days of their existence (Cain and Able being the result), what happened to their libido for the next 130 years or so do you suppose, cause that's how old Adam was when son #3 (Seth) was born (Genesis 5:3).

 

[Moral Orel]

Conjecture can take us to all kinds of places, can't it Since we are into speculation today, consider this, if Eve's pregnancy, that was recorded in Genesis 4:1, happened during the first few days of their existence (Cain and Able being the result), what happened to their libido for the next 130 years or so do you suppose, cause that's how old Adam was when son #3 (Seth) was born

"They had many other sons and daughters". Seth was just the mentionable one. The answer to your question is the same place that Cain got his wife.