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dialogue

parrhesiastes
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我想他的意思大概是、
基督徒相信世上只有一個真正的神,
那「真神」便是他們的神。

其它宗教崇拜基督教以外的神、
違反基督教的十戒中的第一条戒律。
所以無論教義和基督教如何相近、
也是和基督教教義有衝突的。
 
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Kripost

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请问一下,你们比较喜欢用简体字还是繁体字?虽然我能读两种字体, 我只能搭简体字.
 
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Breetai

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Machjo said:
I quoted the Bible saying that "you shall have no other Gods". You said that I was 100% correct.

The problem is that the god of the Baha'i faith is not the God of the Bible. As well, it denies who Christ was; God. It teaches that Christ was mearly a manifestation of God; as was Abraham, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.

The bottom line is that it denies Christ and makes its god to be a completely different god than the Lord of the Bible. If a Christian were to accept the teachings of Baha'u'llah, then they would be accepting a different God and would break the original commandment in the process.
 
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Machjo

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Breetai said:
I quoted the Bible saying that "you shall have no other Gods". You said that I was 100% correct.

The problem is that the god of the Baha'i faith is not the God of the Bible. As well, it denies who Christ was; God. It teaches that Christ was mearly a manifestation of God; as was Abraham, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.

The bottom line is that it denies Christ and makes its god to be a completely different god than the Lord of the Bible. If a Christian were to accept the teachings of Baha'u'llah, then they would be accepting a different God and would break the original commandment in the process.

I'm sorry, there are no textual references here. And again, I think this discussion would be more appropriate in the Non-Christian Religions section of CF.

With respect,

Machjo
 
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Breetai

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Machjo said:
I'm sorry, there are no textual references here. And again, I think this discussion would be more appropriate in the Non-Christian Religions section of CF.

With respect,

Machjo
Does no textual references make what I said incorrect? With a minimal research amount, anyone could confirm that what I've said is true.

I don't think that this discussion is at all inappropriate here. It's not in depth, and this is a Christian message board. Besides, you made this a debate when you said that the Baha'i faith "accept Jesus". It does not accept Jesus in a way that a Christian does. To any young Christian, it would appear very much like you did imply that. I'm simply making sure that nobody is confused here. If what I've just said is out of line here, then the purpose of this entire message board is misplaced.

I'm not sure that Christians in the PRC are really "persecuted" in the way that many assume, but it is very much a country with a lack of the Holy Spirit and in need of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't, of course, expect you to agree with that statement, but each and every Christian on this Christian message board ought to.
 
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parrhesiastes
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Very well then, Breetai, if you so insist...

I think the PRC "lacks the Holy Spirit" and "needs the gospel of Jesus Christ" as much as American lack confucian values and in need of preaching of the analect. Like any other civilization, PRC China has its cycle of rise and fall, both in terms of internal economy and international relations. However, Chinese did not run amock in the last 4000 years, or at least, it had civilization, order and stability, and Chinese people have lived with morality and ethic long before missionaries brought in christianity along with colonialism.

As an ethnic Chinese and a PRC citizenship holder, I will state my opinion that my country and my people do not need Christianity, nor is it an issue that we "lack holy spirit." We do, however, open our door and allow some degree of exchange of thoughts, cultures, and beliefs.

China is not a free society; even non religious fictions are under censorship of the government. But, despite it not being a free society, christians and catholic missionaries can enter and "spread the gospel," this fact tells a lot about the myth of Christian persecution.

Even ESL teachers, volunteer child and youth educators and University visiting professors from the west (and internally) are under monitor. Deal with it, it's just the way Chinese society runs. We all live in surveillance society, it's just more obvious in China than it is in the West.

A friend of mine is teaching English in interior China to young school children, he tries to encourage the children to ask more question and be more willing to challenge superior, he got numerous warning and his mails have been censored ever since. There is nothing religious in his message, it's just that China is a society that maintain social order through control of discourse. If you cannot live with that, you probably should choose a different country for your mission.

There were times in recent past when missionaries are being deported, without any regard for their intent or activities in the country -- they were being deported ALONG WITH all westerners that were there to exploit China's resources and control China's industrialization during colonization period. These people were deported precisely because they entered China to be imperialist, to impose their way of life, their beliefs, their law etc on Chinese. Deporting them and barring them out of our country is our way of saying that we have finally stand up to the bullies and regained autonomy over our country.

If more westerners are to enter PRC with the mindset that "Chinese need more of our cultural beliefs and religions," I sure hope the government would tighten the control over religious-imperialism.

I sincerely hope that we will learn from history, and more specifically, learn from our historical mistakes. You can impose ideas and beliefs and values on others, in their land, and the result is often resentment and defensiveness.

China is fine without Christianity. So please, if you want to enter, at least check your ego at the door and entertain the possibility that maybe Chinese culture itself is no less worthy than the Western heritage of monotheism and enlightenment.
 
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Tashie

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sorry if i sound a little slow dialogue, but you're not a christian then?

I don't want to be offending any more than i was already at the begining of this topic *sorry again!* But i beleive that every country, every county/state/province and ever person needs Jesus Christ in their lives. I'm soor if you dont agree with that, its just what i believe. Also i believe that evryone needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit, for it is like water to our parched spirits. *sorry about that little poetry* Again its just what i believe.

Jesus came to give life to the full, for everybody. Not just certain people. We are all worthy to worship God, and Jesus is more than worthy of our praise. I believe that we should all be able to ask questions and have our faith scrutinised by others, that way we learn more and more and grow more and more about/in God.

I really hope i didn't offend you! - I seem to be doing that without meaning too.
 
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parrhesiastes
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Hello Tashie,

You have not offended me. And if I sound like I am raining wrath on you, I sincerely apologize, I am really sorry.

This is a Christian Forum; when I come in here, I accept and expect that I will be discussing Christianity-related topics with Christians.

And while I do not personally, subjectively, understand the needs for the Gospel or the holy spirit, I accept that it is important to you, and I accept that you have personal, subjective relationship with God, and that you believe your religion is beneficial to others.

But I do take issue with people describing China in derogatory manners (such as using terms like "persecution," in "need" of western religious enlightenment, etc). China did not yield to western imperialism, China refused to adopt western mode of production, China did not copy the American constitution/ governmentality, and we most certainly did not adopt a western religion. But just because we do not conform to the West, does not mean we are inferior, or that we "need" to become more westernize/ enlightened/ Christianized.

Again, I take no issue with the fact that you want to help others in ways that you understand to be helpful, such as by spreading the gospel. I just don't think it is a good idea to enter a foreign country with a sense of superiority about your own cultural beliefs. I am not specifically criticizing you; I have just learn from colonial history, that the least an outsider can do is to check the ego at the door, and to be respectful towards the unfamiliar cultural practices, state affairs, and beliefs.
 
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Breetai

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Tashie, don't worry about offending anyone when you are talking about Christ. The non-Christians here know very well that this is a Christian message board. If they were so offended by Christians that they wouldn't read what we had to say, then they would leave.


BTW, Christ and "Christianity" aren't neccesarily the same thing. Sometimes they aren't even related (other than in name). People in China can be lead to Christ without having to be subjected to western thought and imperialism.


dialogue said:
...the least an outsider can do is to check the ego at the door, and to be respectful towards the unfamiliar cultural practices, state affairs, and beliefs.
That's good advice.
 
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Machjo

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Breetai said:
Does no textual references make what I said incorrect? With a minimal research amount, anyone could confirm that what I've said is true.

I don't think that this discussion is at all inappropriate here. It's not in depth, and this is a Christian message board. Besides, you made this a debate when you said that the Baha'i faith "accept Jesus".


Fair enough, so we disagree.

"It does not accept Jesus in a way that a Christian does."

Whether this is true in 100% of cases, I don't know, but it is a possibility, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

"To any young Christian, it would appear very much like you did imply that. "

We ought to give them more credit; I believe youth are much wiser than we give them credit for, but I'll I'll agree with you that at least some young Christians could have thought that I implied that. If so, then perhaps it was worthwhile for you to clarify it.

"I'm simply making sure that nobody is confused here. If what I've just said is out of line here, then the purpose of this entire message board is misplaced."

Fair enough.

"I'm not sure that Christians in the PRC are really "persecuted" in the way that many assume, but it is very much a country with a lack of the Holy Spirit and in need of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't, of course, expect you to agree with that statement, but each and every Christian on this Christian message board ought to.
"

ctually, I do agree with the statement. but you might understand my agreement in more context by reading the following threads.

Respectfully.
 
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Machjo

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dialogue said:
Very well then, Breetai, if you so insist...

"I think the PRC "lacks the Holy Spirit" and "needs the gospel of Jesus Christ" as much as American lack confucian values and in need of preaching of the analect."

I partially agree. I while I believe every faith ought to be tought, propagated, proselitysed, etc., I'd place preach in another category altogether. Teaching requires a willing pupil. Propagation requires willing adherents, and proselitism doesn't necessarily need to be direct or explicit. Preaching, on the other hand, is direct and explicit by nature, doesn't require a willing pupil as it implies one person being talked to by the other, and, unlike preselitism, does imply aggressiveness. Perhaps we can define 'preaching' as 'aggressive procelitism'. As for the west needing the teachings of Confucius as much as the east needs the teachings of Christ, I fully agree. I've read both the Analects and teh Gospels, and I can say that the spiritual teachings of both are identical. So from that perspective, it would seem to me that to lack the spiritual teachings of one automatically imply lacking the spiritual teachings of the other. Although I'm a Baha'i, I've read the Bible, the Qur'an adn the Analects. I also have a Bhagavadgita and have read the Dao De Qing as well. I do believe that if we want to live in a peaceful world, we definitely need to better understand one another's religions and not be so condescending towards others.


" Like any other civilization, PRC China has its cycle of rise and fall, both in terms of internal economy and international relations. However, Chinese did not run amock in the last 4000 years, or at least, it had civilization, order and stability, and Chinese people have lived with morality and ethic long before missionaries brought in christianity along with colonialism."

If I'm not mystaken, the last Chinese civilization came about thanks to the teachings of Confucius, before which the land was wrought with corruption. So I think we definitely ought to repect his wisdom without a doubt.

"As an ethnic Chinese and a PRC citizenship holder, I will state my opinion that my country and my people do not need Christianity, nor is it an issue that we "lack holy spirit." We do, however, open our door and allow some degree of exchange of thoughts, cultures, and beliefs. "

China is not a free society; even non religious fictions are under censorship of the government. But, despite it not being a free society, christians and catholic missionaries can enter and "spread the gospel," this fact tells a lot about the myth of Christian persecution."

Well, while I might be under monitor (though I can't confirm this for certain), and while I might feel that my lack of freedom of religious organization might be a little suffocating at times, I must say that I have complete personal freedom of religion (as per PRC law). And while I might not agree with the laws relating to religious organization, I can fully understand them. After all, if Canada had suffered two Opium Wars with some using religion as pretext, I'm sure Canada today would be more than a little wary of religious organization too. China is still licking historical wounds, and this takes time. And as I'd mentionned before, I'm totally free to procelitize in a non-aggressive manner.

"Even ESL teachers, volunteer child and youth educators and University visiting professors from the west (and internally) are under monitor. Deal with it, it's just the way Chinese society runs. We all live in surveillance society, it's just more obvious in China than it is in the West."

If I'm monitored, I don't notice it, I must say.

"A friend of mine is teaching English in interior China to young school children, he tries to encourage the children to ask more question and be more willing to challenge superior, he got numerous warning and his mails have been censored ever since."

Ah, now I understand. Certainly if you come here to to play partisan politics, then sure you'll be monitored. He deserves it. No simpathy here.

"There is nothing religious in his message, it's just that China is a society that maintain social order through control of discourse. If you cannot live with that, you probably should choose a different country for your mission."

From my experience, respect the law, keep your nose out of politics, and don't engage in agressive procelitism (i.e., preaching) and you'll be fine."

There were times in recent past when missionaries are being deported, without any regard for their intent or activities in the country -- they were being deported ALONG WITH all westerners that were there to exploit China's resources and control China's industrialization during colonization period. These people were deported precisely because they entered China to be imperialist, to impose their way of life, their beliefs, their law etc on Chinese. Deporting them and barring them out of our country is our way of saying that we have finally stand up to the bullies and regained autonomy over our country."

Again, China is still healing form the Opium Wars (even the british newspapers of the time were disgusted at the behaviour of the westerners of the time who were trying to force open China's opium trade, which China wanted to ban, while England itself had banned the substance!), and so it's only natural that westerners, including myself, in China, ought to be a litle humble and not present ourselves as being superior in any way.

"If more westerners are to enter PRC with the mindset that "Chinese need more of our cultural beliefs and religions," I sure hope the government would tighten the control over religious-imperialism."

From what I've seen in the last few years, the Chinese government has been loosening its hold on religion lately. But again, you're right. If some groups decide to exploit this kindness on the part of the Chinese government (and believe me, many among the general population agrees with the government on this one), then certainly there is the risk that the government could suddenly clamp down again.

"I sincerely hope that we will learn from history, and more specifically, learn from our historical mistakes. You can impose ideas and beliefs and values on others, in their land, and the result is often resentment and defensiveness."

Hmmm. I can't find a disagreement here.

"China is fine without Christianity. So please, if you want to enter, at least check your ego at the door and entertain the possibility that maybe Chinese culture itself is no less worthy than the Western heritage of monotheism and enlightenment.
"

Well, I'll say that the spirit of Christianity can certainly make a contribution to China without a doubt, and in the same way the spirit of Confucius can do the same in the west. :)
 
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dialogue

parrhesiastes
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Machjo said:
"

Well, I'll say that the spirit of Christianity can certainly make a contribution to China without a doubt, and in the same way the spirit of Confucius can do the same in the west. :)

I will just say that "can contribute" is not the same as "need." China and Chinese is fine without Christianity, it is not a necessity.

Christ and "Christianity" aren't neccesarily the same thing. Sometimes they aren't even related (other than in name). People in China can be lead to Christ without having to be subjected to western thought and imperialism.

Breetai, I intuitively agree, but I don't know what *exactly* do you mean. I believe in morality, I believe in being benevolent and not being malicious, I believe in love and forgiveness, but I do not believe in "God" as described in the bible.

I believe that China cannot do without love and morality; but as it seems we both agree, China does not need "christianity," nor its doctrines.
 
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Machjo

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Strange thing happenned to me once. I had a Chinese Christian here in China trying to convert me to Christianity. When I said that I believe in Christ, Moses, Muhammad, the Buddha, Krishna, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah, and Confucius too, and read the Bible, the Qur'an, the Analects and the Bhagavadgita, and of course, the texts of my own faith too, was she ever confused.

She kept insisting that Christianity, and Christianity alone, can save mankind. Well, if by that is meant the current social institution of Christianity, I can't agree. It's become very, even scarily, political in the last few years. If, however, we're referring to the spirit Christ taught, the same that Confucius taught, Baha'u'llah, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna tought, then yes, the whole world needs Christianity. But then again, that's the same as saying the whole world needs Confucianism according to the same definition. Just my ideas.
 
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Breetai

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I believe that China cannot do without love and morality; but as it seems we both agree, China does not need "christianity," nor its doctrines.
From a Christian view, man is lost without Christ. Therefore, China needs Christ.

Christianity= organized religion, which often gets ugly when people's political leanings get involved. Sometimes Christ gets left in the backgroud. Christianity cannot save anyone.

Christ= the essense of Christianity, God, love and man. You can have Christ without all of the BS that can come with Christianity. Christ can save all people; Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Confusists, Buddists, etc. There is no limit.

Religion does not save. Christ, and only Christ, saves.

Was someone like Ghandi saved though Christ? It's definetely possible. For all I know, someone like him might've known Christ better than most Christians do.

The Bible teaches that Christ is present everywhere, but is not known everywhere. Us Christians are called to make Christ known, not to make him present. A lot of people get that wrong.

Romans 2: 11-16
For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


It is still grace with faith in Christ, and only grace, that saves. This passage does not change that. What I think that it does imply is that you can "know" Christ without actually "knowing" who Christ is. In this way, it seems that one might be saved without being a "Christian".
 
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Tashie

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I do understand that when *not if ;) * I go to China i will need to know about there culture and there beliefs and i will, I also know that i should be respectful of there beleifs and not inforce my own upon others, i will.

Peace x.

P.S. Me and two friends may be going to a Baha'i Church on sunday, you really interested me in the subject and i would like to learn more. Plus it would be another step towards me learning and understanding more about different cultures and churches. x.
 
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