My heart really burns for China and I know that one day im gunna go there, im an 'open door' rep in my church and i do as much work for persecuted christians as i can. Does anyone else have burden for them?? Or a country like China??
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China
- Thread starter Tashie
- Start date
Tashie said:
I'm sorry, but I really do find your post offensive in its use of the word 'persecuted'. Perhaps we don't have the same freedom of organized religion as we do in other nations, but personal freedom of religion is the same! Consider this for a moment. I'm posting this message from the PRC, right now! I have religious quotes on my name card, which I hand out to people freely, even if they are members of the CCP. I take days off for religious holidays, and get together with friends to worship, just not in large groups or in an organized manner.
When I attended the Universal Esperanto Congress in Beijing in the Summer of 2004, Buddhists, Christians and Baha'is had the opportunity to present their respective religions to the members of the congress who were interested, and there was even one religious booth handing out pamphlets. in my local town itself, we have at least two buddhist temples, one Catholic church, one Protestant church, one seminary, and one mosque. There are also plenty of Muslim restaurants which are decorated with all kinds of Muslim decorations.
So perhaps we don't have the same freedom of organized religion here as we do in other countries, but then again, consider that that is partially due to a paranoia stemming from the opium wars (which therefore effectively makes it of Europe's, japan's and the US' doing) from which they are effectively still healing in some respects, and consider likewise that the PRC has made much progress in this direction in the last few years.
So please, I'd suggest you follow news other than in the usual English-language.
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im really sorry i offended you, i suppose the right terms for what i am saying would be that after i have heard so much, especially about a man named'brother Yun' - he wrote the boo heavenly ma, i guess i am incredibly interested in the whole house church situation over there. Will you mind me asking you what type of church you go to?
Again i am sorry x
Again i am sorry x
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And I'm sorry if I got a little angry too. Perhaps I ought to be more understanding in that you've merely been influenced by US media.
Part of what the media says is true, but 'persecution' is nothing but gross exaggeration. Those who are persecuted are the ones who went out on a limb to try to trumpet their faith publicly. As I'd said before, China's freedom of organized religion has far to go, but as for personal freedom of religion, here's what the PRC constitution has to say:
http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html
Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.
As you can see, some of the wording does give the state the right, for instance, to prevent Chinese catholics from interacting with the vatican (foreign domination), or from organizing without consent, or independently of the government (disrupt public order, the state protects normal religious activity) So yes, the consittution is far from perfect, but not as bad as some make it out to be. As I'd mentionned before, my name cards include religious quotes which I freely give out. As long as the quotes are in good taste, there is no problem.
Now as for my personal religious activities, I normally don't attend Christian functions myself unless invited by friends, but I can say that I do get together with friends to pray, celebrate holidays, etc. (I'm not a Christian myself, but a Baha'i). I'm even allowed to teach my faith (and do) as long as it's done in a respectful manner which does not unduly offend anyone's freedom from my religion, cause them discomfort or awkwardness due to my propagation of my faith. And guess what! Everything I do is perfectly legal. If a government official should ask me about my religious beliefs and activities in China, I could freely tell him the truth and not get kicked out of the country. It's all legal. Those who get persecuted are the ones who should have chosen to politicise their faith and have tried to challenge the government in some way or another. Just because I don't fully agree with the constitution does not give me a right to violate it, anymore than you would have a right to harass members of an abortion clinic in the US (and I'm opposed to abortion too, by the way). No nation is perfect. Consider likewise, that majority religion in China is, in fact, atheism. So it's natural that the general public also supports certain controls over religious organization, especially when we consider that many committed atrocities in China during the Opium wars under the guise of Christianity, so you can immagine that the Chinese still have some healing to do before they could acccept giving Christians full freedom of religious organization, which I believe will eventually come, as china continues to grow. I can also say that, from my observations, my faith, along with Islam, Christianity and other religions, are in fact on the increase in China, so things could change in the future. Be patient, and if you want to come to China to teach your faith, please do so. But remember, while the laws aren't perfect, you already have plenty of freedom, within the already existing laws, to promote your faith without needing to break the law (and thus disresperct the Chinese people) by doing so. The3 people, believe it or not, do in fact respect their government, and so should you if you come here.
Also, I can add that sometimes the Chinese government makes exeption for internaitonal conferences. For instance, international Esperanto conferences occur every few years in China, be they world or Asian, or far eastern, but buring these conferences, the government will sometimes make exception and allow for organised promotion of various religions there. During the World Esperanto Congress iin the Summer of 2004, for instance, there were in fact presentations made by no fewer than three religioous communities, on a number of occasion, open to all members of the congress, and which even included some high ranking government officials and other famous Chinese.
And if you want to know more about China from a Chinese perspective, please see:
http://www.china.com.cn/
Is it biassed? Of course it is. But don't tell me the US media isn't! So it will just give you a different perspective none the less.
hope this helps.
Part of what the media says is true, but 'persecution' is nothing but gross exaggeration. Those who are persecuted are the ones who went out on a limb to try to trumpet their faith publicly. As I'd said before, China's freedom of organized religion has far to go, but as for personal freedom of religion, here's what the PRC constitution has to say:
http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html
Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.
As you can see, some of the wording does give the state the right, for instance, to prevent Chinese catholics from interacting with the vatican (foreign domination), or from organizing without consent, or independently of the government (disrupt public order, the state protects normal religious activity) So yes, the consittution is far from perfect, but not as bad as some make it out to be. As I'd mentionned before, my name cards include religious quotes which I freely give out. As long as the quotes are in good taste, there is no problem.
Now as for my personal religious activities, I normally don't attend Christian functions myself unless invited by friends, but I can say that I do get together with friends to pray, celebrate holidays, etc. (I'm not a Christian myself, but a Baha'i). I'm even allowed to teach my faith (and do) as long as it's done in a respectful manner which does not unduly offend anyone's freedom from my religion, cause them discomfort or awkwardness due to my propagation of my faith. And guess what! Everything I do is perfectly legal. If a government official should ask me about my religious beliefs and activities in China, I could freely tell him the truth and not get kicked out of the country. It's all legal. Those who get persecuted are the ones who should have chosen to politicise their faith and have tried to challenge the government in some way or another. Just because I don't fully agree with the constitution does not give me a right to violate it, anymore than you would have a right to harass members of an abortion clinic in the US (and I'm opposed to abortion too, by the way). No nation is perfect. Consider likewise, that majority religion in China is, in fact, atheism. So it's natural that the general public also supports certain controls over religious organization, especially when we consider that many committed atrocities in China during the Opium wars under the guise of Christianity, so you can immagine that the Chinese still have some healing to do before they could acccept giving Christians full freedom of religious organization, which I believe will eventually come, as china continues to grow. I can also say that, from my observations, my faith, along with Islam, Christianity and other religions, are in fact on the increase in China, so things could change in the future. Be patient, and if you want to come to China to teach your faith, please do so. But remember, while the laws aren't perfect, you already have plenty of freedom, within the already existing laws, to promote your faith without needing to break the law (and thus disresperct the Chinese people) by doing so. The3 people, believe it or not, do in fact respect their government, and so should you if you come here.
Also, I can add that sometimes the Chinese government makes exeption for internaitonal conferences. For instance, international Esperanto conferences occur every few years in China, be they world or Asian, or far eastern, but buring these conferences, the government will sometimes make exception and allow for organised promotion of various religions there. During the World Esperanto Congress iin the Summer of 2004, for instance, there were in fact presentations made by no fewer than three religioous communities, on a number of occasion, open to all members of the congress, and which even included some high ranking government officials and other famous Chinese.
And if you want to know more about China from a Chinese perspective, please see:
http://www.china.com.cn/
Is it biassed? Of course it is. But don't tell me the US media isn't! So it will just give you a different perspective none the less.
hope this helps.
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Oh, I forgot to mention. If you'd like to make many Chinese penfriends, you can also visit:
http://www.lernu.net/
http://www.lernu.net/
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So does this mean your not a christian?
Thanks for myour help, i realise that the U.S influence my thinking but i dont know anyone *personally* who can tell me about this, who really knows bout this.
Thanks again x
Thanks for myour help, i realise that the U.S influence my thinking but i dont know anyone *personally* who can tell me about this, who really knows bout this.
Thanks again x
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that's right.I'm not a Christian. If anything, christians have even more freedom than i do sinse their religion is officially recognized by the state, whereas mine isn't! And ithout a doubt, if you want to know more about China, I'd advise you to find a net friend here as soon as possible.Tashie said:
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can you reccomend any? 
What religion are you? .. Or the right question would be what do you believe in?
What religion are you? .. Or the right question would be what do you believe in?
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I believe in the Baha'i Faith, which also accepts Jesus.
http://www.bahai.org/
Well, unfortunately, all of my friends who know English generally aren't so interested in net friends; most of them learnt or are studying it primarily for pragmatic purposes. I might be able to find some interested parties if I look around (many are studying English in these parts, but again, for most the reason is strictly pragmatic), but it's highly unlikely they will be your age (I take it you're 15?). They will most likely be older sinse most only start to finally get a handle on English after middle school (i.e., once they start university).
If you can speak other languages, however, please let me know. Those who study ethnic languages otehr than English are usually more interested in net-friends sinse they actually have an interest in the language they're learning. But again, remember that they usually don't start to master these language until after their compulsory education, and they are few indeed.
If you know or are studying Espernato, however, then I might be able to find someone your age no problem. They aren't many in number, but they've effectivly mastered the language and you'd have minimal competition, plus Esperanto is extremely easy to learn.
And if you know Chinese, well then obviously you don't need my help.
Should you be interested in following the Esperanto root, you can find Chinese net-friends right away at:
http://www.lernu.net/
If, on the other hand, you want to try the English or other language root, then I'm not so familiar with what websites are available there.
And as for Chinese, they're abundant, obviously.
Hope this helps.
http://www.bahai.org/
Well, unfortunately, all of my friends who know English generally aren't so interested in net friends; most of them learnt or are studying it primarily for pragmatic purposes. I might be able to find some interested parties if I look around (many are studying English in these parts, but again, for most the reason is strictly pragmatic), but it's highly unlikely they will be your age (I take it you're 15?). They will most likely be older sinse most only start to finally get a handle on English after middle school (i.e., once they start university).
If you can speak other languages, however, please let me know. Those who study ethnic languages otehr than English are usually more interested in net-friends sinse they actually have an interest in the language they're learning. But again, remember that they usually don't start to master these language until after their compulsory education, and they are few indeed.
If you know or are studying Espernato, however, then I might be able to find someone your age no problem. They aren't many in number, but they've effectivly mastered the language and you'd have minimal competition, plus Esperanto is extremely easy to learn.
And if you know Chinese, well then obviously you don't need my help.
Should you be interested in following the Esperanto root, you can find Chinese net-friends right away at:
http://www.lernu.net/
If, on the other hand, you want to try the English or other language root, then I'm not so familiar with what websites are available there.
And as for Chinese, they're abundant, obviously.
Hope this helps.
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nah im gud.. i may be 15, but i'm fairly mature!!
Im a rep at my church for a charity and stuff.... anyway!
Yeah even though im fairly mature lol, im not good enough to know any other languages! I dont mind tlking to someone older as long as they dont mind talking to me. i'd just like to start chatting to some people in China... i only started learning chinese a couple of weeks ago so im still at the basics stage... stuff like nay ho ma? etc.
I'll look into the Baha'i faith if you dont mind?
Im a rep at my church for a charity and stuff.... anyway!
Yeah even though im fairly mature lol, im not good enough to know any other languages! I dont mind tlking to someone older as long as they dont mind talking to me. i'd just like to start chatting to some people in China... i only started learning chinese a couple of weeks ago so im still at the basics stage... stuff like nay ho ma? etc.
I'll look into the Baha'i faith if you dont mind?
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Breetai said:
As for "a lot of other things which are contrary to the Bible", I won't respond in this tread otherwise it will lead to a duplicate thread to exchanges occurring in the 'Other religions' forum already,so I'd rather just direct you there instead.
Now as for taking it 'a little easier on Tashie there', I agree I may hae been a little condescending. And considering that my condescention might be what triggered your own emotions to throw in 'damn', I'll forgive it.
But I'm sure you can understand that when one lies in another country long enough, we begin to identify with it over time, and therefore tend to empathisewith it more. I'd merely ask that people try to become more informed about what goes on in China before making reference to persecution. While 'persecution' was completely inapproapriate, and personal freedom of religion is the same as it is in Canada, I can say that freedom of religious organization is certainly controlled, and has much room for improvement.
Sorry if I might have offended anyone.
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Tashie said:nah im gud.. i may be 15, but i'm fairly mature!!
Im a rep at my church for a charity and stuff.... anyway!
Yeah even though im fairly mature lol, im not good enough to know any other languages! I dont mind tlking to someone older as long as they dont mind talking to me. i'd just like to start chatting to some people in China... i only started learning chinese a couple of weeks ago so im still at the basics stage... stuff like nay ho ma? etc.
I'll look into the Baha'i faith if you dont mind?
As I'd mentionned to Breetai in my last post, I apologized if I came out a little condescending.
Now you mentionned tat you're also studying Chinese. If you'd mentionned it before, I'd missed it. My apologies. you could certainly try posting at:
http://reto.cn/
or
http://reto.cn/cgi-bin/forumo/luntan.cgi?id=cina
In English, you could try:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/
It also has a forum of its own where you might be able to find someone.
Another option is to download ICQ. Most Chinese use QQ, however, but those who use ICQ are more likely to know languages otehr than Chinese sinse international communication is often their motivation for downloading ICQ. If you're looking for the 'average' Chinese, however, then try downloading QQ. Be aware, however, that those in QQ are less likely to be bilingual.
Quite honestly, however, there is no real point in my introducing personal friends to you if you can find friends at the sites above, since any friend of mine who's conected to the net is at those sites as well. but if you still can't find anyone (again, for English speakers, many are mostly learning english for strictly pragmatic reasons), then please let me know and at that stage I'll try to find someone personally who might be interested in English communication. If you're up for Chinese, then I'm sure I can find plenty of people for you, personally
As for looking up the Baha'i Faith, Breetai mentionned that some of it conflicts with the Bible. I'd disagree, of course, but then that's my word against his, so feel free to read the Bible for a final verdict on that point
. naturally I don't mind you're looking into the Baha'i Faith, but probably won't mention it to you much unless you ask, beyond providing the initial webpage, which I've done already anyway, as I know I don't like people pestering me about religion either.Hope this helps a little, good luck with your net-friend search, and if you still don't succeed, please feel free to let me know and I'd love to help (I think it would be of great benefit to you, and would view it as a great service to help you find a net-friend here in china.
Sincerely.
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Thankyou!!
*i realise i probably used probably used persecution in the wrong context - sorry bout that!*
Again thanx for your help, i am strong in my Faith but still interested to learn more about others! And plus i would really like to go to China one day!!
Thankyou for your help
*i realise i probably used probably used persecution in the wrong context - sorry bout that!*
Again thanx for your help, i am strong in my Faith but still interested to learn more about others! And plus i would really like to go to China one day!!
Thankyou for your help
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Breetai
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel...
You shall have no other gods...As for looking up the Baha'i Faith, Breetai mentionned that some of it conflicts with the Bible. I'd disagree, of course, but then that's my word against his, so feel free to read the Bible for a final verdict on that point
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Thanks Machjo for the clerifications regarding "persecution" in China. I don't think it is condescending to disagree with other's view point.
I grew up in Hong Kong and went to catholic school there, many of the senior classman (catholics) in my school made trips to interior China to relief the extreme poverty, provide free educations, "spread the gospel", and so on. Religious persecution was unheard of, though making political statements are discouraged and monitored. If anything, it is the capitalist exploitations that angered us.
I also briefly attended Chinese Churches in Canada when I first immigrated here. Some of the fellow churchmates have made missionary trips back to China; they never had any problem with "religious persecution" either. If anything, they were really amazed at how willingly and easily people accepted their doctrines without any questioning.
(which they attribute to the lack of education.)
Tashie, I think it's a really noble thing to want to help others. But I also think, if you are entering another country, cultural sensitivity and knowledge is an absolute must. Try looking through a Lonely Planet guide for a start; research a little on the state, the economy, the history, gender safety, and so on. Learning Chinese language is also a very good idea.
Anyway, I give the same advice that my supervisor gave me for researches in foreign soil: few locals have much sympathy for westerners who use China to justify their skills, technologies, religions and knowledge to themselves, and they are legion--the colorful history and the state of uneven development appeal to the 'adventurer' and 'conqueror' types so typical of western enlightenment's heritage. There is a history to missionaries in Asia, especially during the colonial period, and lack of cultural knowledge and a sense of superiority contributed to the long standing bad reputation of aggressive evangelion tactics.
If you are still interested in a few months, feel free to pm me and I can probably put you in contact with Chinese-Canadian who grew up in China and who may also have some missionary experiences.
I grew up in Hong Kong and went to catholic school there, many of the senior classman (catholics) in my school made trips to interior China to relief the extreme poverty, provide free educations, "spread the gospel", and so on. Religious persecution was unheard of, though making political statements are discouraged and monitored. If anything, it is the capitalist exploitations that angered us.
I also briefly attended Chinese Churches in Canada when I first immigrated here. Some of the fellow churchmates have made missionary trips back to China; they never had any problem with "religious persecution" either. If anything, they were really amazed at how willingly and easily people accepted their doctrines without any questioning.
(which they attribute to the lack of education.)
Tashie, I think it's a really noble thing to want to help others. But I also think, if you are entering another country, cultural sensitivity and knowledge is an absolute must. Try looking through a Lonely Planet guide for a start; research a little on the state, the economy, the history, gender safety, and so on. Learning Chinese language is also a very good idea.
Anyway, I give the same advice that my supervisor gave me for researches in foreign soil: few locals have much sympathy for westerners who use China to justify their skills, technologies, religions and knowledge to themselves, and they are legion--the colorful history and the state of uneven development appeal to the 'adventurer' and 'conqueror' types so typical of western enlightenment's heritage. There is a history to missionaries in Asia, especially during the colonial period, and lack of cultural knowledge and a sense of superiority contributed to the long standing bad reputation of aggressive evangelion tactics.
If you are still interested in a few months, feel free to pm me and I can probably put you in contact with Chinese-Canadian who grew up in China and who may also have some missionary experiences.
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Tashie said:Thankyou!!
*i realise i probably used probably used persecution in the wrong context - sorry bout that!*
Again thanx for your help, i am strong in my Faith but still interested to learn more about others! And plus i would really like to go to China one day!!
Thankyou for your help
Take care.
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