chimps are so like us... what does it mean?

[Meowzltov]

The line for what?

The line where chimps are so similar to us that you say, "You know, we really must be related."

 

[Meowzltov]

I'm all ears.

Start with truly listening to what I've already said, instead of just tossing it to the side like garbage.

 

[Calminian]

Start with truly listening to what I've already said, instead of just tossing it to the side like garbage.

What actually have you said though? I mean you're very firm in your belief, haven't really offered any support. You just keep saying it's obvious. I'd like to see you actually reason through your position.

 

[Meowzltov]

What actually have you said though? I mean you're very firm in your belief, haven't really offered any support. You just keep saying it's obvious. I'd like to see you actually reason through your position.

Well, think back to all the things I've listed so far that chimps have in common with human beings. Do chimps strike you as typical "animals"??? Do animals prefer to cook their food? Do animals have a theory of mind? Do animals make spears and go to war? What other animals commit rape and murder? Don't these things about chimpanzees strike you as a little too human and not animal enough? If there is a clear line between human and animal, don't these things make you extraordinarily uncomfortable?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Well, think back to all the things I've listed so far that chimps have in common with human beings. Do chimps strike you as typical "animals"??? Do animals prefer to cook their food? Do animals have a theory of mind? Do animals make spears and go to war? What other animals commit rape and murder? Don't these things about chimpanzees strike you as a little too human and not animal enough? If there is a clear line between human and animal, don't these things make you extraordinarily uncomfortable?

First, most meat-eating animals really could care less whether their food is cooked. There is no evidence of chimpanzees cooking their own food, I doubt they know how to start a fire. Second, chimpanzees don't make spears and wage war. They probably just pick up sticks and fight for territory like most animals do. There are plenty of animals that rape and murder eachother, so chimps are not special in that regard. And what does theory of mind even mean? No these things don't make me uncomfortable because much of what you are giving is false information trying to lead us to believe chimps are human-like, and they are not.

 

[Meowzltov]

Now you have gone and stuck your foot into your mouth. Everything I have claimed is easy to verify. I think chimps are fun and fascinating and so I follow the news on them. Each of these things has many news reports to document my claims.

First, most meat-eating animals really could care less whether their food is cooked. There is no evidence of chimpanzees cooking their own food

From Scientific American: Chimps would cook food if they could. http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/chimps-would-cook-food-if-they-could/

Second, chimpanzees don't make spears and wage war. They probably just pick up sticks and fight for territory like most animals do. There are plenty of animals that rape and murder eachother, so chimps are not special in that regard.

Actually most animals do NOT murder their own kind in a premeditated fashion, nor do they rape, nor do they commonly kill their own kind over territory. When chimps kill for territory its really quite shocking. The male chimps form gangs that patrol their turf, and which venture over into the territory of other chimpanzees until they find a lone chimp of the competing group. They then brutally torture, beat, and kill the lone chimp. This gangland style murder is repeated, slowly winowing down the male population of the competing tribe. Making spears for hunting is a very recent innovation -- we have the pleasure of living through this event in chimp history.
Chimps making and throwing spears for hunting, originally publishes in the Royal Society Journal
https://royalsociety.org/news/2015/04/female-chimps-use-spears-to-hunt/

And what does theory of mind even mean?

Theory of mind means you understand that other people have beliefs, desires,intentions, and perspectives that are different from yours. It is the ability to think about what others are thinking. Chimps can do this really well, although they do have one limitation -- they struggle when others have false ideas or lie.
Live Science: Chimps Can Get Inside Others' Heads Just Like Humans http://www.livescience.com/18325-chimpanzees-theory-mind.html

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Now you have gone and stuck your foot into your mouth. Everything I have claimed is easy to verify. I think chimps are fun and fascinating and so I follow the news on them. Each of these things has many news reports to document my claims.


From Scientific American: Chimps would cook food if they could. http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/chimps-would-cook-food-if-they-could/
Actually most animals do NOT murder their own kind in a premeditated fashion, nor do they rape, nor do they commonly kill their own kind over territory. When chimps kill for territory its really quite shocking. The male chimps form gangs that patrol their turf, and which venture over into the territory of other chimpanzees until they find a lone chimp of the competing group. They then brutally torture, beat, and kill the lone chimp. This gangland style murder is repeated, slowly winowing down the male population of the competing tribe. Making spears for hunting is a very recent innovation -- we have the pleasure of living through this event in chimp history.
Chimps making and throwing spears for hunting, originally publishes in the Royal Society Journal
https://royalsociety.org/news/2015/04/female-chimps-use-spears-to-hunt/
Theory of mind means you understand that other people have beliefs, desires,intentions, and perspectives that are different from yours. It is the ability to think about what others are thinking. Chimps can do this really well, although they do have one limitation -- they struggle when others have false ideas or lie.
Live Science: Chimps Can Get Inside Others' Heads Just Like Humans http://www.livescience.com/18325-chimpanzees-theory-mind.html

Nice articles, they don't prove anything though. Also, if evolution is true, you think one day chimps will become human? Will God have to send another Jesus for their sins?

Honestly I am done with this thread.

 

[Meowzltov]

Also, if evolution is true, you think one day chimps will become human? Will God have to send another Jesus for their sins?

Believe it or not, I've given serious thought to the problem of what would happen if chimps developed the ability to know right from wrong, which is really the only spiritually significant difference between us. I have no answers. I can only assume that God already knows in advance what the future holds.

 

[Calminian]

Well, think back to all the things I've listed so far that chimps have in common with human beings. Do chimps strike you as typical "animals"???

Well their vile creatures if that's what you mean. Ever seen their victims? They basically chew off fingers and noses.

Do animals prefer to cook their food?

Yes, dogs seem to like processed and cooked food. At least the ones I've had.

Do animals have a theory of mind? Do animals make spears and go to war? What other animals commit rape and murder?

Most of them I would think, are savage killers. I know hyenas cannibalize one another when they're young, allowing only a few to mature. All animals are quite brutal, in fact, even to their own kind. But I think grey parrots have the larges language capacity.

Don't these things about chimpanzees strike you as a little too human and not animal enough? ...

What things? The Bible tells us we're brute savages in our flesh. It compares us to animals (beasts) when our depravity takes over. But we have a conscience in us to fight this which is something animals lack.

You see, it's not our animalistic behaviors that make us human—rape, murder, etc. Those things all animals have. Our resistance of our brute instincts is what makes us human. Chimps are perhaps the most vile in this area. I'd consider them much less human in appearance that other animals.

 

[RuthD]

Humans are humans, chimps are chimps. They are animals, a separate creation from us. They are not our cousins.

How do you know what you say? Where is your scientific evidence?

 

[RuthD]

Well their vile creatures if that's what you mean. Ever seen their victims? They basically chew off fingers and noses.



Yes, dogs seem to like processed and cooked food. At least the ones I've had.



Most of them I would think, are savage killers. I know hyenas cannibalize one another when they're young, allowing only a few to mature. All animals are quite brutal, in fact, even to their own kind. But I think grey parrots have the larges language capacity.



What things? The Bible tells us we're brute savages in our flesh. It compares us to animals (beasts) when our depravity takes over. But we have a conscience in us to fight this which is something animals lack.

You see, it's not our animalistic behaviors that make us human—rape, murder, etc. Those things all animals have. Our resistance of our brute instincts is what makes us human. Chimps are perhaps the most vile in this area. I'd consider them much less human in appearance that other animals.

huh?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

How do you know what you say? Where is your scientific evidence?

I don't need a bunch of scientific data from secular methods and studies. I have God's word and as his child I believe it over what any man says. If you want to go read a few "scientific" articles about how monkeys and humans are basically the same, feel free to do so. I'll stick to the Bible.

 

[dougangel]

How close to us do chimps have to be before we acknowledge that they are our cousins?

Presently, the state of New York is wrestling with the question of whether chimpanzees should legally be considered persons, with the right of habeus corpus. What do you think?

Consider that chimps murder, rape, go to war... They even spontaneously began making spears. They have a theory of mind. They can act in compassion. In some ways, such as visual memory, they are superior to us. The latest news is that they prefer cooked food and will delay gratification in order to cook it. I could go on and on with their cognitive skills... You get the point.

Where is the line for you?

Hmmm I really feel there playing with figures when they say where close to apes and there is a certain amount of dishonesty going on because dna scientists know the following.
They say it's 80% dna or something like that but that 20% dna is something like millions of dna information.

Genesis says God breathed his spirit into man. We have a different spiritual awareness than animals.

 

[RuthD]

I don't need a bunch of scientific data from secular methods and studies. I have God's word and as his child I believe it over what any man says. If you want to go read a few "scientific" articles about how monkeys and humans are basically the same, feel free to do so. I'll stick to the Bible.

God's word, huh.

 

[Dave-W]

How close to us do chimps have to be before we acknowledge that they are our cousins?

I guess that would depend on your definition of "cousin."

DNA shows that a male chimp and a male human have 98% of their genes in common. That is actually slightly CLOSER than male and female humans.

But whether than means we are actually related, (as in evolution) I am not so sure. I spent 20+ years as a design engineer, mostly in the US tool and die industry. Having designed hundreds of jigs, fixtures and progressive dies, I often used the exact same components for the same functions. Another designer may have a different set of components for that function. So many tool builders could tell who designed the die or fixture without looking at the drawing. They knew what my work looked like.

The fact that we are so similar to chimps and other primates means we had the same Designer and builder. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Dave-W]

Nothing can convince me chimps are related to humans because God's Holy scripture says they are different beings. We do not come from the same blood and DNA, we are different creations.

Whether we have the same DNA and blood types is irrelevant. We could be EXACTLY the same but still come from seperate acts of creation.

 

[Dave-W]

Second, chimpanzees don't make spears and wage war. They probably just pick up sticks and fight for territory like most animals do.

Actually they do. The east asian species often gather several tribes together to attack and wage a very primitive war with other tribes. Interestingly, huge battles are often settled without violence by the leaders of both sides having sex.

AFAIK, that has never been observed in the African species.

 

[Smidlee]

Hmmm I really feel there playing with figures when they say where close to apes and there is a certain amount of dishonesty going on because dna scientists know the following.
They say it's 80% dna or something like that but that 20% dna is something like millions of dna information.

Genesis says God breathed his spirit into man. We have a different spiritual awareness than animals.

They say chimps and human DNA is 98.6% similar so what exactly causes an animal to become an scientist?
The more materialistic people become the harder for them to see the difference between man and an animal. The farther man gets away from God the more he becomes an animal and sometimes acts lower than an animal.

When Nebuchadnezzar was filled with pride God cause he to eat grass like an animal.

 

[brinny]

Well, think back to all the things I've listed so far that chimps have in common with human beings. Do chimps strike you as typical "animals"??? Do animals prefer to cook their food? Do animals have a theory of mind? Do animals make spears and go to war? What other animals commit rape and murder? Don't these things about chimpanzees strike you as a little too human and not animal enough? If there is a clear line between human and animal, don't these things make you extraordinarily uncomfortable?

Are chimpanzees human?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes, dogs seem to like processed and cooked food. At least the ones I've had.

I've never heard of a dog cooking food.

Most of them I would think, are savage killers. I know hyenas cannibalize one another when they're young, allowing only a few to mature. All animals are quite brutal, in fact, even to their own kind. But I think grey parrots have the larges language capacity.

what does this have to do with theory of the mind?