Childbirth

[Dream]

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee. (Genesis 3:16)

Since Mary was without original sin, does that mean that she did not experience the pains of childbirth?

 

[Mystery5]

Could be. It doesn't mention it in the Bible. But, my priest today said that the Holy Family suffered just as we suffer in our lives, and are an example and inspiration to us. So, Mary wasn't spared suffering...

Some women do have babies without feeling painful contractions. I had 6 children totally naturally, at home, and with my 4th child I did not know I was in labor and did not have any painful contractions.

 

[HappyMomof4]

I remember someone, I think John Martinoni, talking about this very thing on the radio not too long ago and he said that she wouldn't have had pain during childbirth since she was immaculately concieved.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Two things that have caused me to at least pause and reflect about this question...

1) The pains of childbirth are the result of sin. If Mary was sinless at the time of conception (either by her own Immaculate Conception as Rome believes or by some other undefined method, created sinless at the time of Jesus' conception, as I understand the East and some others believe) and remained that way through the birth of Jesus, then it would seem that she would not have been under the curse and would not have had pain during childbirth.

2) The more important aspect to consider is "ever virgin". For Mary to have remained "ever-virgin", then the childbirth would have been something different than a standard birth which would clearly destroy a woman's virginity.

Considering these two specific points, one would have to suspect no pain of childbirth would have been involved.

Peace

Rose

 

[Veritas]

Two things that have caused me to at least pause and reflect about this question...

1) The pains of childbirth are the result of sin. If Mary was sinless at the time of conception (either by her own Immaculate Conception as Rome believes or by some other undefined method, created sinless at the time of Jesus' conception, as I understand the East and some others believe) and remained that way through the birth of Jesus, then it would seem that she would not have been under the curse and would not have had pain during childbirth.

2) The more important aspect to consider is "ever virgin". For Mary to have remained "ever-virgin", then the childbirth would have been something different than a standard birth which would clearly destroy a woman's virginity.

Considering these two specific points, one would have to suspect no pain of childbirth would have been involved.

Peace

Rose

Childbirth does not destroy a woman's virginity; intercourse does.

 

[Veritas]

Could be. It doesn't mention it in the Bible. But, my priest today said that the Holy Family suffered just as we suffer in our lives, and are an example and inspiration to us. So, Mary wasn't spared suffering...

Some women do have babies without feeling painful contractions. I had 6 children totally naturally, at home, and with my 4th child I did not know I was in labor and did not have any painful contractions.

And the baby just slipped through with no discomfort? Hmmm. Like spitting a basketball out of your mouth. OK with me

 

[Carrye]

Childbirth does not destroy a woman's virginity; intercourse does.

There were three schools of thought in the early Church:

1) Virginitas ante partum - Mary was a virgin before the conception
2) Virginitas in partu - Mary was biologically a virgin even in the birth
3) Virginitas post partum - Mary remained a virgin after the birth

2 comes from the apocraphal Protoevangelium of James, and quickly died out. 1 and 3 remained, as we can see in the Nicene Creed :

Credo ...
"and in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary"

and in one of the Penitential Rites :

I ask ...
"blessed Mary ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and to you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord Our God."
***
But as I understand it, Rose and the others who have claimed a painless childbirth for Mary are within the orthodox speculation/understanding of what would have taken place and why.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Childbirth does not destroy a woman's virginity; intercourse does.

Virginity is defined by having an intact hymen. Generally intercourse will rupture the hymen but a fully effaced cervix through which a baby passes will surely destroy it! Mary did not have intercourse. And, if you believe the church's teaching, Mary remained a perpetual virgin. What other explanation is there?

Peace

Rose

 

[Illume]

I'm not sure, but I think in the Proto-evangelium of James it said she had no pains in child birth.

 

[Dream]

Virginity is defined by having an intact hymen. Generally intercourse will rupture the hymen but a fully effaced cervix through which a baby passes will surely destroy it! Mary did not have intercourse. And, if you believe the church's teaching, Mary remained a perpetual virgin. What other explanation is there?

Peace

Rose

Virgin

1. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.
2. A chaste or unmarried woman; a maiden.
3. An unmarried woman who has taken religious vows of chastity.
4. Virgin The Virgin Mary.
5. Zoology. A female insect or other arthropod that produces fertile eggs without copulating.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=virgin

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Virgin

1. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.
2. A chaste or unmarried woman; a maiden.
3. An unmarried woman who has taken religious vows of chastity.
4. Virgin The Virgin Mary.
5. Zoology. A female insect or other arthropod that produces fertile eggs without copulating.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=virgin

From New Advent on Virginity

Morally, virginity signifies the reverence for bodily integrity which is suggested by a virtuous motive. Thus understood, it is common to both sexes, and may exist in a women even after bodily violation committed upon her against her will. Physically, it implies a bodily integrity, visible evidence of which exists only in women. The Catholic Faith teaches us that God miraculously preserved this bodily integrity, in the Blessed Virgin Mary, even during and after her childbirth (see Paul IV, "Cum quorundam", 7 August, 1555).

But I know where you are coming from. I once had the same understanding.

Peace

Rose

 

[EllenMoran]

Right, but a woman's hymen can be ruptured due to things other than intercourse. Horse-riding is an example of an activity that can do so. Certainly that doesn't mean that every girl whose hymen is is ruptured due to something other than intercourse is no longer a virgin.

 

[Alexis OCA]

Childbirth does not destroy a woman's virginity; intercourse does.

But the church does teach as a dogma that Mary maintained her virginity BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER the birth of Jesus. For example:

Virgin Birth of Christ



The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son.

I. THE VIRGIN BIRTH IN CATHOLIC THEOLOGY
​

Councils and Creeds

The virginity of our Blessed Lady was defined under anathema in the third canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin I, A.D. 649. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, as recited in the Mass, expresses belief in Christ "incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary"; the Apostles' Creed professes that Jesus Christ "was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary"; the older form of the same creed uses the expression: "born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary". These professions show: (I will provide just one that seems applicable)...

• that the supernatural influence of the Holy Ghost extended to the birth of Jesus Christ, not merely preserving Mary's integrity, but also causing Christ's birth or external generation to reflect his eternal birth from the Father in this, that "the Light from Light" proceeded from his mother's womb as a light shed on the world; that the "power of the Most High" passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them; that "the body of the Word" formed by the Holy Ghost penetrated another body after the manner of spirits.

PLEASE NOTE THE TERM "PRESERVING MARY'S INTEGRITY"

God Bless.

 

[Alexis OCA]

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee. (Genesis 3:16)

Since Mary was without original sin, does that mean that she did not experience the pains of childbirth?

Yes, it does mean she did not experience the pains of childbirth.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Right, but a woman's hymen can be ruptured due to things other than intercourse. Horse-riding is an example of an activity that can do so. Certainly that doesn't mean that every girl whose hymen is is ruptured due to something other than intercourse is no longer a virgin.

Very true Teaching this litmus test to men can be very dangerous, many young women have been shuned and hurt by this, various accidents can cause the hymen to dislodge.
This hopefully, will not promote lying of young girls though, doctors can generally tell if there has been, oh, I won't even say it, I think you all know.

 

[Veritas]

Virginity is defined by having an intact hymen. Generally intercourse will rupture the hymen but a fully effaced cervix through which a baby passes will surely destroy it! Mary did not have intercourse. And, if you believe the church's teaching, Mary remained a perpetual virgin. What other explanation is there?

Peace

Rose

Your definition of virginity may be held by some including you, but virginity has primarily to do with sex, not an intact hymen. For example, girls will often have torn hymens from anything from tampons to accidents on their bikes. These incidents do not result in loss of virginity. I know of no man who will consider his bride a non-virgin because she used tampons. He's more concerned with another man having deflowered her. (Sorry to be so graphic...this is obviously an adult topic)

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Your definition of virginity may be held by some including you, but virginity has primarily to do with sex, not an intact hymen. For example, girls will often have torn hymens from anything from tampons to accidents on their bikes. These incidents do not result in loss of virginity. I know of no man who will consider his bride a non-virgin because she used tampons. He's more concerned with another man having deflowered her. (Sorry to be so graphic...this is obviously an adult topic)

While I understand the spirit of virginity and surely accept that it is sexual purity that satisfies most of our expectations for the definition of a virgin, we are not talking about the young Olympic horseback rider who has abstained from sex before marriage and claims to be a virgin on her wedding day. I agree...for all key intents and purposes, she is. However, in this specific discussion, the physical aspect of Mary's virginity was not overlooked or ignored by the church. It is something that needs to be considered because 1) the church did and 2) it impacts the manner of childbirth that resulted.

Peace

Rose

 

[Rising_Suns]

However, in this specific discussion, the physical aspect of Mary's virginity was not overlooked or ignored by the church. It is something that needs to be considered because 1) the church did and 2) it impacts the manner of childbirth that resulted.

You raise an interesting point, LR, and it is something that we should try not to be talking past each other about. The Church did make it a point to emphaise the fact that Mary was not merely a virgin in some abstract spiritual sense, but that she was truly preserved a virgin both physically and spiritually, even in her bodily integrity.

Now I suppose the question we can ask is where does this leads us in the discussion? What can we conclude about this?

I would say, if anything, it atleast shows the bond and necessary unity between the flesh and the spirit, as opposed to the common Christian mindset that "spirit=good, flesh=bad". wouldn't you say?

 

[Irenaeus]

I disagree that the pristine state of our first parents did not have birth pains. The scripture says, "I will greatly multiply" Eve's birth bangs. If he is multiplying them, doesn't that mean that there was some at least already existant?

This is by no means an absolute statement...just interested as to the responses.

 

[Carrye]

I disagree that the pristine state of our first parents did not have birth pains. The scripture says, "I will greatly multiply" Eve's birth bangs. If he is multiplying them, doesn't that mean that there was some at least already existant?

Not Eve, Mary.