Childbirth

[Rising_Suns]

Not Eve, Mary.

If we are to believe that Mary did not have birth pains, then it would seem this passage would not be speaking about her....

"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days." [Rev 12:1]
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[Carrye]

If we are to believe that Mary did not have birth pains, then it would seem this passage would not be speaking about her...

First I would like to say that I don't know nothin' bout nothin' in Revelation. I like to stay far, far away from that book. But I wonder whether the words here are retrojecting, or whether they are prophetic-symbolic of the future.

 

[marciadietrich]

On the verse from Revelation, the woman would seem to represent not just Mary but also Israel (and Mary the specific Israelite who gives birth to the Messiah) and also the Church. So for Israel there was pain in the process of waiting for and the birth of the Messiah. Especially in the killing of the innocents by Herod. Many possibilites that don't negate Mary as the woman in Revelation.

 

[Paul S]

Maybe the passage in the Apocalypse is symbolic, and goes along with Simeon's prophecy in Luke, about Mary's soul being pierced by a sword. Our Lady may not have experienced pain during birth, but she certainly suffered greatly because of everything Our Lord went through, especially the crucifixion, and I'm sure the sins of us hear on earth greatly sadden her.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Our Lady may not have experienced pain during birth, but she certainly suffered greatly because of everything Our Lord went through, especially the crucifixion, and I'm sure the sins of us hear on earth greatly sadden her.

Very true.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Genesis actually reads that pains in childbirth will be greatly increased. For something to be increased it would have had to be present to begin with. Pain does not necessarily equal suffering. There are women I know and who I have worked with who do not suffer at all or very minimally during their labors and births... much suffering in labor comes from fear and anxiety (it causes adrenaline to be secreted, which limits the effectiveness of oxytocin). Mary, without sin, would have been free from any distrust or fear at the time of birth....

 

[Irenaeus]

Clskinner,

You're not seeing what I was trying to say.

If Eve in the pristine state (without sin) had pains, and God "increased" those pains, as Shannon McCatholic said,

Then Mary, who was without sin, probably went through pain because it was natural. But as Shannon mentioned, it was probably not that bad for her.

Oh well, this isn't an earthshattering thing...I think we can all have our opinions.

 

[Carrye]

I thought you were misunderstanding the question, Irenaeus.

Did Eve give birth pre-Fall?

 

[Crispie]

Im just curious, and promise not to bring up debate, but where in the bible does it teach that Mary remained a virgin her whole life? I mean...I never read it anywhere in there..and she fulfilled the prophecy of a virgin birth, meaning she wasnt restricted to abstenence after the birth. Im curious.

 

[Paul S]

Im just curious, and promise not to bring up debate, but where in the bible does it teach that Mary remained a virgin her whole life?

Understandable question, but first, you have to ask where in the Bible it says that all of our faith must come from the Bible.

Catholics believe in Sacred Tradition, part of which is found written in the Bible and part is passed down orally from the Apostles. Mary being ever-virgin is part of this Tradition.

 

[Crispie]

Ah, so its not in the bible. Alright, thanks for answering.

 

[PeterPaul]

Ah, so its not in the bible. Alright, thanks for answering.

And its not in the Bible, that it must be in the Bible.

 

[Crispie]

Agreed.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Oh well, this isn't an earthshattering thing...I think we can all have our opinions.

Yes yes. Mary still is, and always will be, our mother, our helper, our benefactrix, our mediatrix, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and queen of heaven.

 

[SolomonVII]

The viriginity of Mary accords with the theology of what attributes that the Theotokos must have. It would be inconsistent with the nature of such a role for our Lady to not be Virgin.

The role of the Virgin Mary, stands in direct contrast to harlot Israel who God takes as a bride in Hosea. In is only in state of perpetual, pure virginity that Mary can be pleasing to God and blessed with the honor of being mother to His Son. It is the necessary sign of her fidelity to God, and to God alone.

Not directly biblical, the virginity of Mary nevertheless naturally flows from the logic of the biblical text, and the role that Israel is to have in God's plan of salvation.

 

[Paul S]

Also, if the Ark of the Covenant had to be pure, in order to hold the tablets of the Law, then how much purer must the new Ark be, in order to hold God Himself?

 

[CarolineBlue]

Some women can pain as bad as childbirth every month during menses. Some family clinics can't help with natural methods of controlling that so those women have to go on the pill which causes Cancer. I don't know why God would make women suffer so greatly every month given we have to work aswell and often don't get paid as much as men do.

You can't take a week off with it every month can you?

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I don't know why God would make women suffer so greatly every month given we have to work aswell and often don't get paid as much as men do.

You can't take a week off with it every month can you?

Because God knows what we need for our eternal happiness, and that rarely has anything to do with material success. The only way to the glory of the resurrection is through the intense suffering of the Crucible. The more we are gifted to share in the sufferings of the Cross, the more detatched from the things of this world we will become, the more we will seek only our Sweet Beloved and His face and will in all things....