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CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

Endtime Survivors

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Yes. Those are the words.

You said a lot about having certainty regarding the 7 churches because that's what the words say, and you acknowledge my comments about the prophecy defining the purpose of the Mark will be to control buying/selling, but earlier you also said...

But then again, we're back to the idea making no sense. The use of money has been going on since the dawn of civilization. Jesus used money, Judas kept the bag. He said to render to Caesar that which was Ceasar's, did not condemn the payment of tribute, nor tithing, nor use of currency. Because none of this matters to Him.

How can you have 100% certainty because of what the words say (i.e. that the purpose of the Mark must be to control buying/selling) but then also say that the concept of money, and our relationship to it, doesn't matter to God? I'm open to the idea that I'm misunderstanding you, but this does come across as a contradiction.

I suppose the discrepancy could be explained by the possibility that you view money as being quite a different issue to buying/selling, but I think that would raise even more problem areas for your interpretation.

Or, it may be that you interpret Mark reference to buying/selling as a more spiritualized concept which doesn't involve actual money, but then that would necessarily break your 100% certainty based on what the words actually say. For example, Revelation 18 talks about Babylon doing business in the souls of men, which I think leaves a lot more room for a spiritualized interpretation (i.e. people selling their souls for various material gain).

The purpose of the prophecy specifying that the Mark will be put on the right hand (or forehead) is to let us know that it is not a spritualized "selling of souls" but rather an actual, physical Mark which will have spiritual implications based on a choice to physically accept it, or, as Jesus put it, "you cannot work for God and mammon (at the same time) without cheating on one of them".
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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Can anyone hear!??!?! PAY ATTENTION!!!! If you mark your right hand or forehead with "Xes", you will burn in the Lake of God's Torment forever and ever!!! Do not take the MARK "Xes"!!!!! It's already in the World, being taken by men. Do not take "Xes"!!! Buy and sell all you want, but do not take "Xes" into your hand or forehead. Saints of God....you will know the Anti-Christ by this Mark...... "Xes"!!!!!
 
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One of my questions what is it about taking this chip ties it directly to a rejection of God and belief in Him?

Fantastic question. The purpose of the Mark is to control buying/selling. Whatever the physical shape which the Mark takes, the real issue is, why buying/selling? We've become so used to the concept that it seems strange to question it, but the essence of buying and selling is gain. I will help you if you give me something of equal, or preferably, greater value. That system is not consistent with what Jesus taught. How can we say we love our neighbor if we only help them because we get paid (whether through cash, material goods, or services).?

God tolerated the monetary system for a long time, but it wasn't what he wanted. It's a bit like the Israelites demanding to have a king and God giving in to their demands (and even selecting the king) even though he warned them that it was contrary to what he wanted and what he believed best for them.

We humans had our way long enough and now God would introduce the highest revelation of himself to us; Jesus. He said that the only motivation for why we work should be love, and that we should not allow even the most basic necessities like food and clothing stop us from working for love. He said all the world chases after these things, but that we should not be like them. Instead of being the master, we become the servant. Instead of taking the highest seat we take the lowest. Instead of announcing our charity and fasting we keep it secret, instead of saving our lives we seek to lose them. Instead of demanding payment for our love, we give it freely.

The Mark is the Beast's attempt at turning people away from this vision by taking their attention away from the spiritual and putting it back on the physical, where buying and selling (or as some people call it, earning their right to live) is the goal. The Beast doesn't actually care about microchips or money, but he does care about turning people away from God, because it is when we're distracted by greed and fear that we are most vulnerable to moving closer to him (Satan).

I think it's actually rather fascinating that God allows the Mark to come into play, because I think he also wants to know who will put their faith in his provision verses who will put their faith in the monetary system. As it is now, people can put their faith in the material and still claim to be faithful to the spiritual. The Mark will be the ripping away of all the masks and pretense. Those faithful to God will reject it, and no amount of squirming or scriptural gymnastics will change that.
 
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Can anyone hear!??!?! PAY ATTENTION!!!! If you mark your right hand or forehead with "Xes", you will burn in the Lake of God's Torment forever and ever!!! Do not take the MARK "Xes"!!!!! It's already in the World, being taken by men. Do not take "Xes"!!! Buy and sell all you want, but do not take "Xes" into your hand or forehead. Saints of God....you will know the Anti-Christ by this Mark...... "Xes"!!!!!

Hi Jonathan. Yeah, I hear you and welcome to the thread. I can see you are quite zealous so I hope you will be patient with me about a disagreement I have with your interpretation. You say, "buy and sell all you want, but..." which comes across rather strange to me because the prophecy is pretty clear that the purpose of the Mark is to control (or manipulate, depending on how you choose to see it) buying/selling.
 
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razzelflabben

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Good question. Not sure if I'm being pedantic here, but it may be worth saying that I think we have a responsibility to question everything (even really basic issues like God's love for us, so long as we can do it humbly and sincerely). However, I think what you mean is what makes us think we have the right to come up with interpretations which appear to be contradictory to what the prophecy clearly states, right?

For example, the prophecy clearly says the purpose of the Mark will be to control buying/selling, but people regularly come up with interpretations which conveniently allow them to continue buying/selling. The "God won't punish me for wanting to feed my family, even if it means taking the Mark" argument is pretty common. Another really common interpretation is the highly spiritualized, "Actions of my hands and thoughts of my mind" scenario where people are okay to continue buying and selling (presumably) if their heart is right with God (though I've never heard a particularly satisfying explanation as to how the this interpretation applies to practical, day to day life; like, how does one know when the action of their hands and thoughts of their mind falls into the category of having taken the Mark? It's all rather vague).

As for why we sometimes choose to misinterpret apparently clear scriptures (and I think we probably all do it to some degree) would most likely be because of wanting to avoid some uncomfortable consequence or responsibility/discipline. So, greedy people will interpret verses about "the riches of God" or blessings of God as evidence that God wants us to be rich. People who are interested in sexual desire will interpret verses about loving their neighbor as evidence that God wants them to sleep around (believe it or not that's a real thing). There was a time when people used the Bible to justify slavery in the US. Men sometimes use it to justify dominating their wives. There could be a variety of motives.
I would assume the same is true for accusations that have been made against me on this thread but no evidence is presented to back up the claims?!?

The bottom line is that if we Love God, we will follow no matter the cost, even if it means starving to death or being executed...that is what scripture says.
 
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John Hyperspace

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You said a lot about having certainty regarding the 7 churches because that's what the words say, and you acknowledge my comments about the prophecy defining the purpose of the Mark will be to control buying/selling, but earlier you also said...



How can you have 100% certainty because of what the words say (i.e. that the purpose of the Mark must be to control buying/selling) but then also say that the concept of money, and our relationship to it, doesn't matter to God? I'm open to the idea that I'm misunderstanding you, but this does come across as a contradiction.

Our difference is that you're understanding the words literally, and I'm understanding them spiritually. I'm talking about spiritual things, while you talk about literal things. Then, in response to the literal teaching, I'm raising an objection concerning the literal understanding, saying that, literal buying and selling in a mere literal economy have never been condemned by God. So I am basically saying, this is not literally understood, but even if we take it literally, the concept doesn't make sense in that people are suddenly being condemned for a literal participation in a literal economy when this has never been condemned in the bible previously.

So, I say, this is understood spiritually, and not literally.
You say, I understand it literally.
I respond, even if we take it literally, your interpretation doesn't make literal sense in relation to the rest of the bible. Your words "a literal mark to literally buy and sell" make sense; but the judgment of ones that do so doesn't make sense in context of the bible (which says God only cares about the state of heart and mind toward Him) in that it suddenly and without biblical precedent causes God to not only become concerned with literal economies, but to the point of condemnation of those participating in said literal economy.

I suppose the discrepancy could be explained by the possibility that you view money as being quite a different issue to buying/selling, but I think that would raise even more problem areas for your interpretation.

Or, it may be that you interpret Mark reference to buying/selling as a more spiritualized concept which doesn't involve actual money, but then that would necessarily break your 100% certainty based on what the words actually say.

I am understanding it spiritually, but that doesn't mean I'm not going by what the words "actually say". The words "actually say" "7 candlesticks" and they also actually say "the candlesticks are churches": so I can be certain by what they "actually say" without saying "the actual words must be understood literally"

The purpose of the prophecy specifying that the Mark will be put on the right hand (or forehead) is to let us know that it is not a spritualized "selling of souls" but rather an actual, physical Mark which will have spiritual implications based on a choice to physically accept it, or, as Jesus put it, "you cannot work for God and mammon (at the same time) without cheating on one of them".

My question would be, by what justification do you understand the words literally? And not spiritually? I presume you agree that at the least, most of the Revelation is clearly spiritually discerened. Why does the word "mark" necessitate to you a "literal" understanding? Again, what of the "seal of God" which is "in the forehead" os the 144,000? Is this also, literal? How exactly do you determine - with justification - what is literal and what is not?
 
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I would assume the same is true for accusations that have been made against me on this thread but no evidence is presented to back up the claims?!?

Matthew 18:15-17 . I'd be ok to be one of the listeners if you want to invite the other person (and a second witness) to try to work it out in a private chat.
 
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razzelflabben

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Matthew 18:15-17 . I'd be ok to be one of the listeners if you want to invite the other person (and a second witness) to try to work it out in a private chat.
Not worth it in my opinion, I don't have a problem with the people who have accused me because by not explaining themselves and by not posting evidence to back their claims they show that it was just hot air based on pridefulness and therefore showing their character to be other than brother at least in these situations. But thanks, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

Quick story...in our church, a new believer asked us what to do because he had an issue with a brother. We counseled Matthew 18. He didn't want to follow it because he knew that the "brother" wouldn't accept it. Well after much prayer and encouragement, the new believer went to another couple in which witness was taken first not second. Long story made really short, not only did things turn ugly but we got blamed for being the problem because we encouraged and counseled Matt. 18.

Point being I will jump at Matt. 18 if the person in question even slightly appears to be a brother, but if all they appear to be is someone trying to gain attention I just let it go like water off a ducks back, not because of judgment but because of measure.

IOW's they were asked to work it out and refused, which is the problem
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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Dear razzle, I'm not sure if you are thinking that God will be upset if you trade/swap goods or exactly what you asked a couple of posts ago. It's not that God will forbid us to use the monetary system, because every man is due his wage and the Bible speaks very harshly of a wealthy man or a landowner withholding the poor man his daily wage for labor. What will happen is, IF you choose to follow the Lamb, public opinion, then society, the "world church", then the government will freeze your swipe card account, rendering you unable to buy or sell according to the normal way everyone else does. In other words, your bank card ain't good any more. I haven't taken the time, as it just crossed my mind, but the scripture says that we need not heap stuff up, nor worry about what we eat or wear, as God already knows this and will feed you. It's in Mathew, I think.

What it will boil down to is a hypothetical (or invisible)mark OR SEAL of God. Not on paper OR on you. It's in your mind and heart. If you check out history, there was a group who refused to follow the dictates of Rome called the Waldenses. They lived high in the Swiss Alps, just out of the reach of the armies commissioned to serve the papacy. The kept no traditions, except SOLA SCRIPTURA, or the "scriptures solely". Rome hated them because they wouldn't comply to her ways. Rome murdered a ton of them over the years, but never broke them for over 1000 years. In fact, the Papacy is credited with murdering at least 50 million (and could exceed 150) "in the name of God". The Waldenses had their own EVERYTHING. Schools, crops, animals and anything else they needed. They would train the youth their entire life in the wiles of rome and when they came of age, they would slip down off of the mountain with Bible verses and songs cleverly sewn into the "hems" of their clothes. As they would retain work and befriend the people of the "world", IF they trusted them, they would uncover these verses and share the light with folks. Many were turned in and killed. THEY actually helped keep the scriptures pure and alive, at a heavy cost. Back then, possession of a Bible or even one verse was punishable by death from the "church". The Waldenses sacrificed everything worldly in order to serve God the way God wanted to be served.
The printed word (around 1510) and the Spirit of God, working through people like Martin Luther (where the Lutheran Church came from, the first Protestant church) exposed the lies of the papacy and the Protestant revolution was born. Over the years, many of her pagan teachings were never completely removed from churches. It was common knowledge as to the identity of the anti-Christ system up until the late 1800/early 1900s. Now, no one seems to know anything about it. That is because of a well planned Counter-Reformation. You can believe it or not, but these doctrines of men, were made to darken once lit areas and take away from the diety and Omnipotence of Jesus Christ. Church and state were one and scripture says it will be again. It may be so suttle that most never know it. Most don't worship anyway. The situation will be similar again toward those that choose God over world. Many laws have been passed recently that force compliance of what the "world" thinks ought to be the standard, not God. It's only the beginning. Bringing people to court or jail for not serving in private business, people whom God calls their behavior an abomination. They even force people to be hooked up to the "grid" in most places. We grew up with electricity, but who would've imagined a law requiring it. People can't even have solar in some places, and the ones that do still require the grid hookup. It's little, suttle things. THE- the system, knows they can't break you, do now, they breed it out. Home schooling will eventually be outlawed. For the best "interest" of the child, of course. The very first book your kid gets at school is a dinosaur book that starts with: millions of years ago....., so that shoots alot of the literal 6 day creation thing in the foot. They are removing God at all costs. TV basically is just propaganda to get you to buy stuff you DONT have to have, but think you do. If you look at the list in Rev.18, it's goodly and dainty things we don't need. People have become dependant on running to the grocery store instead of making their own food. Now the man says not to stockpile food. They are making us dependant of the govt. as well. We get lazy and ignorant. That's just what they want. Compliance and ignorance. Its all planned and has been for a long time: FOR YOUR SAFETY AND SECURITY. How many people do you know that honestly know how to farm? What will the ones that know how do for 6- 9 months until crops come in? Where are you gonna get seeds? Where are you gonna buy food if the stores quit bringing trucks? They'll be desolate in 2-3 days MAX. In a week, people will be eating dogs and cats. Did you ever consider owning 4 Maltese dogs would make you a "rancher"? Govt bread lines? Fema camps? Our pants are down around our ankles and we don't have a clue! That's just from a common sense worldly view. There is ample scripture to tell us EXACTLY how it will go AND it's chronological. We just don't know exactly when our Lord will return. He didn't either when He was here, but I'm sure His Father filled Him in once He got home! We do know the seasons, however, but here's the real kicker - we are told to watch and be ready at all times. If you think about it, WE don't know if we will draw one breath more. It COULD be the end for anyone at anytime. Having your I'd dotted and It's crossed with God is of utmost importance. Peace be with you.
 
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razzelflabben

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Dear razzle, I'm not sure if you are thinking that God will be upset if you trade/swap goods or exactly what you asked a couple of posts ago. It's not that God will forbid us to use the monetary system, because every man is due his wage and the Bible speaks very harshly of a wealthy man or a landowner withholding the poor man his daily wage for labor. What will happen is, IF you choose to follow the Lamb, public opinion, then society, the "world church", then the government will freeze your swipe card account, rendering you unable to buy or sell according to the normal way everyone else does. In other words, your bank card ain't good any more. I haven't taken the time, as it just crossed my mind, but the scripture says that we need not heap stuff up, nor worry about what we eat or wear, as God already knows this and will feed you. It's in Mathew, I think.

What it will boil down to is a hypothetical (or invisible)mark OR SEAL of God. Not on paper OR on you. It's in your mind and heart. If you check out history, there was a group who refused to follow the dictates of Rome called the Waldenses. They lived high in the Swiss Alps, just out of the reach of the armies commissioned to serve the papacy. The kept no traditions, except SOLA SCRIPTURA, or the "scriptures solely". Rome hated them because they wouldn't comply to her ways. Rome murdered a ton of them over the years, but never broke them for over 1000 years. In fact, the Papacy is credited with murdering at least 50 million (and could exceed 150) "in the name of God". The Waldenses had their own EVERYTHING. Schools, crops, animals and anything else they needed. They would train the youth their entire life in the wiles of rome and when they came of age, they would slip down off of the mountain with Bible verses and songs cleverly sewn into the "hems" of their clothes. As they would retain work and befriend the people of the "world", IF they trusted them, they would uncover these verses and share the light with folks. Many were turned in and killed. THEY actually helped keep the scriptures pure and alive, at a heavy cost. Back then, possession of a Bible or even one verse was punishable by death from the "church". The Waldenses sacrificed everything worldly in order to serve God the way God wanted to be served.
The printed word (around 1510) and the Spirit of God, working through people like Martin Luther (where the Lutheran Church came from, the first Protestant church) exposed the lies of the papacy and the Protestant revolution was born. Over the years, many of her pagan teachings were never completely removed from churches. It was common knowledge as to the identity of the anti-Christ system up until the late 1800/early 1900s. Now, no one seems to know anything about it. That is because of a well planned Counter-Reformation. You can believe it or not, but these doctrines of men, were made to darken once lit areas and take away from the diety and Omnipotence of Jesus Christ. Church and state were one and scripture says it will be again. It may be so suttle that most never know it. Most don't worship anyway. The situation will be similar again toward those that choose God over world. Many laws have been passed recently that force compliance of what the "world" thinks ought to be the standard, not God. It's only the beginning. Bringing people to court or jail for not serving in private business, people whom God calls their behavior an abomination. They even force people to be hooked up to the "grid" in most places. We grew up with electricity, but who would've imagined a law requiring it. People can't even have solar in some places, and the ones that do still require the grid hookup. It's little, suttle things. THE- the system, knows they can't break you, do now, they breed it out. Home schooling will eventually be outlawed. For the best "interest" of the child, of course. The very first book your kid gets at school is a dinosaur book that starts with: millions of years ago....., so that shoots alot of the literal 6 day creation thing in the foot. They are removing God at all costs. TV basically is just propaganda to get you to buy stuff you DONT have to have, but think you do. If you look at the list in Rev.18, it's goodly and dainty things we don't need. People have become dependant on running to the grocery store instead of making their own food. Now the man says not to stockpile food. They are making us dependant of the govt. as well. We get lazy and ignorant. That's just what they want. Compliance and ignorance. Its all planned and has been for a long time: FOR YOUR SAFETY AND SECURITY. How many people do you know that honestly know how to farm? What will the ones that know how do for 6- 9 months until crops come in? Where are you gonna get seeds? Where are you gonna buy food if the stores quit bringing trucks? They'll be desolate in 2-3 days MAX. In a week, people will be eating dogs and cats. Did you ever consider owning 4 Maltese dogs would make you a "rancher"? Govt bread lines? Fema camps? Our pants are down around our ankles and we don't have a clue! That's just from a common sense worldly view. There is ample scripture to tell us EXACTLY how it will go AND it's chronological. We just don't know exactly when our Lord will return. He didn't either when He was here, but I'm sure His Father filled Him in once He got home! We do know the seasons, however, but here's the real kicker - we are told to watch and be ready at all times. If you think about it, WE don't know if we will draw one breath more. It COULD be the end for anyone at anytime. Having your I'd dotted and It's crossed with God is of utmost importance. Peace be with you.
Here is the question asked a different way...why would anyone make excuses for what scripture clearly tells us just because it involves "food"? As you point out earlier in this post, we are told to not worry about those things, just to trust
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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Dear razzle, I'm not sure if you are thinking that God will be upset if you trade/swap goods or exactly what you asked a couple of posts ago. It's not that God will forbid us to use the monetary system, because every man is due his wage and the Bible speaks very harshly of a wealthy man or a landowner withholding the poor man his daily wage for labor. What will happen is, IF you choose to follow the Lamb, public opinion, then society, the "world church", then the government will freeze your swipe card account, rendering you unable to buy or sell according to the normal way everyone else does. In other words, your bank card ain't good any more. I haven't taken the time, as it just crossed my mind, but the scripture says that we need not heap stuff up, nor worry about what we eat or wear, as God already knows this and will feed you. It's in Mathew, I think.

What it will boil down to is a hypothetical (or invisible)mark OR SEAL of God. Not on paper OR on you. It's in your mind and heart. If you check out history, there was a group who refused to follow the dictates of Rome called the Waldenses. They lived high in the Swiss Alps, just out of the reach of the armies commissioned to serve the papacy. The kept no traditions, except SOLA SCRIPTURA, or the "scriptures solely". Rome hated them because they wouldn't comply to her ways. Rome murdered a ton of them over the years, but never broke them for over 1000 years. In fact, the Papacy is credited with murdering at least 50 million (and could exceed 150) "in the name of God". The Waldenses had their own EVERYTHING. Schools, crops, animals and anything else they needed. They would train the youth their entire life in the wiles of rome and when they came of age, they would slip down off of the mountain with Bible verses and songs cleverly sewn into the "hems" of their clothes. As they would retain work and befriend the people of the "world", IF they trusted them, they would uncover these verses and share the light with folks. Many were turned in and killed. THEY actually helped keep the scriptures pure and alive, at a heavy cost. Back then, possession of a Bible or even one verse was punishable by death from the "church". The Waldenses sacrificed everything worldly in order to serve God the way God wanted to be served.
The printed word (around 1510) and the Spirit of God, working through people like Martin Luther (where the Lutheran Church came from, the first Protestant church) exposed the lies of the papacy and the Protestant revolution was born. Over the years, many of her pagan teachings were never completely removed from churches. It was common knowledge as to the identity of the anti-Christ system up until the late 1800/early 1900s. Now, no one seems to know anything about it. That is because of a well planned Counter-Reformation. You can believe it or not, but these doctrines of men, were made to darken once lit areas and take away from the diety and Omnipotence of Jesus Christ. Church and state were one and scripture says it will be again. It may be so suttle that most never know it. Most don't worship anyway. The situation will be similar again toward those that choose God over world. Many laws have been passed recently that force compliance of what the "world" thinks ought to be the standard, not God. It's only the beginning. Bringing people to court or jail for not serving in private business, people whom God calls their behavior an abomination. They even force people to be hooked up to the "grid" in most places. We grew up with electricity, but who would've imagined a law requiring it. People can't even have solar in some places, and the ones that do still require the grid hookup. It's little, suttle things. THE- the system, knows they can't break you, do now, they breed it out. Home schooling will eventually be outlawed. For the best "interest" of the child, of course. The very first book your kid gets at school is a dinosaur book that starts with: millions of years ago....., so that shoots alot of the literal 6 day creation thing in the foot. They are removing God at all costs. TV basically is just propaganda to get you to buy stuff you DONT have to have, but think you do. If you look at the list in Rev.18, it's goodly and dainty things we don't need. People have become dependant on running to the grocery store instead of making their own food. Now the man says not to stockpile food. They are making us dependant of the govt. as well. We get lazy and ignorant. That's just what they want. Compliance and ignorance. Its all planned and has been for a long time: FOR YOUR SAFETY AND SECURITY. How many people do you know that honestly know how to farm? What will the ones that know how do for 6- 9 months until crops come in? Where are you gonna get seeds? Where are you gonna buy food if the stores quit bringing trucks? They'll be desolate in 2-3 days MAX. In a week, people will be eating dogs and cats. Did you ever consider owning 4 Maltese dogs would make you a "rancher"? Govt bread lines? Fema camps? Our pants are down around our ankles and we don't have a clue! That's just from a common sense worldly view. There is ample scripture to tell us EXACTLY how it will go AND it's chronological. We just don't know exactly when our Lord will return. He didn't either when He was here, but I'm sure His Father filled Him in once He got home! We do know the seasons, however, but here's the real kicker - we are told to watch and be ready at all times. If you think about it, WE don't know if we will draw one breath more. It COULD be the end for anyone at anytime. Having your I'd dotted and It's crossed with God is of utmost importance. Peace be with you.
I s dotted and T s crossed. Dumb smartphone , idiot operator
 
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I think I know what you are saying, just not totally sure. What I gave you was from the world view. God says He's got this: for His followers. Alot of prophecy is two-fold and Ecc. says- what will be has already been, or something to that effect. WHEN the time comes, WHEN it goes sour, true followers, either by urging of the Holy Spirit, OR just common sense, OR BOTH will know the time to head toward the hills. When the time comes, their will be provisions, manna, if you will. How, I'm sure someone will be instructed to help out those who will show up. God will provide somehow. People will get visions and dream dreams with the outpouring of the latter rain. Maybe the spirit will tell the folks to stock up then. Once a death decree goes out for true followers of the Lamb, either Christ will come back and intercede in quick time OR the followers will be martyred and will earn some crowns. WE, as people have become so worried about this life, rather than the one that lasts forever, that we think in the here and now, not really in the forever future. Christ said not to worry about this life. I know it's difficult, especially for someone with kids, but when we really know, deep down, it's like the folks tied to the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] being burned to death in town, in front of everyone. Ha ha, maybe it's where "Roman candle" came from. They sang as the flames rose. It's like God intervenes in cases like this and they KNOW it's really ok. Peace be with you.
 
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razzelflabben

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I think I know what you are saying, just not totally sure. What I gave you was from the world view. God says He's got this: for His followers. Alot of prophecy is two-fold and Ecc. says- what will be has already been, or something to that effect. WHEN the time comes, WHEN it goes sour, true followers, either by urging of the Holy Spirit, OR just common sense, OR BOTH will know the time to head toward the hills. When the time comes, their will be provisions, manna, if you will. How, I'm sure someone will be instructed to help out those who will show up. God will provide somehow. People will get visions and dream dreams with the outpouring of the latter rain. Maybe the spirit will tell the folks to stock up then. Once a death decree goes out for true followers of the Lamb, either Christ will come back and intercede in quick time OR the followers will be martyred and will earn some crowns. WE, as people have become so worried about this life, rather than the one that lasts forever, that we think in the here and now, not really in the forever future. Christ said not to worry about this life. I know it's difficult, especially for someone with kids, but when we really know, deep down, it's like the folks tied to the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] being burned to death in town, in front of everyone. Ha ha, maybe it's where "Roman candle" came from. They sang as the flames rose. It's like God intervenes in cases like this and they KNOW it's really ok. Peace be with you.
sounds like you are saying exactly what I said only in the long version. When I make posts that long I am told that people don't even read it because it is too long. when I shorten my posts people act like they can't follow what I am saying and take issue with me when they are saying the same thing or don't like the end result (not talking about you, just general forum non sense)

It's a rejoicing day around here, so it will take an awful lot to get under my skin today. (again, NOT saying you, just speaking in general)
 
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razzelflabben

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Oh, I didn't use a curse word, BTW, it's obviously on auto audit. It's about folks burned at the stake . There's a particular word that the computer didn't like. Peace
I assumed, I had that happen to me with the word non sense...was really disturbing.

BTW just to be clear...my position is that it could be a literal mark, a chip, a figurative mark, etc. what we can be sure of is that all who are lead by the HS will know when the time comes to avoid being marked as a follower of the beast even if it means starvation and/or persecution/death.
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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Hi Jonathan. Yeah, I hear you and welcome to the thread. I can see you are quite zealous so I hope you will be patient with me about a disagreement I have with your interpretation. You say, "buy and sell all you want, but..." which comes across rather strange to me because the prophecy is pretty clear that the purpose of the Mark is to control (or manipulate, depending on how you choose to see it) buying/selling.

Yes, but God is not teaching it's wrong to buy and sell is He? Of course not. And that is what I meant by "buy and sell all you want". This passage is not banning buying and selling. It is exposing the Mark of the Anti-Christ which the Angels of God declare "Do NOT receive the Mark!"
 
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife

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The "man" will prevent us from buying/selling. I'd say, the remnant will be hunted like dogs. They'll have satellite surveillance, choppers with infrared for nightime, blood hounds and all that jazz. RF- I'd say we would have to be warned by the spirit. People aren't very smart when it comes to abandoning our half-paid for houses and belongings. The gospels quote Jesus saying pray your flight isn't in winter or on Sabbath. BOTH require being pre-prepared. Ahead of time. Jesus was giving another clue here. Also, when He and John the Baptist (I've heard Baptiser lately), they were also speaking of fruit- but this fruit isn't what most consider what we think as fruit. Fruit of repentance. In other words, being ready all the time seems to be Christ's big topic. A clean slate. As technology advanced, we MAY be required to have such. I'll tell you, it's not the mark. It MAY be the byproduct of the beast system, but the mark is not seen. God gives it or allows satan to. If you study Daniel (Jesus said to in Mat.) and compare it with Rev. (both are needed as Dan opens Rev.), you'll see it involves Rome still. Rome is the 4th & final in Dan. In Rev. it's the 4th, then one gets wounded, then has help from the 5th and is healed. Dan. didn't add another so deductive reasoning and past persecution points a heavy finger still. It definitely involves a "church". You see what's happening in the world, if it was visible, you could expect most people to have it. More than not, by far. THEY are the ones who CAN buy and sell, like before the flood, folks marrying and giving in (betrothal for a later wedding day- it's VERY symbolic) marriage. They were decieved and didn't see it coming. If I woke up and had a stamp on my head, I wouldn't go out of the house, much less ,out to make a living. People, most likely, would freak over a chip. Even the atheist would become an instant believer. I've also given thought to people who follow the Lamb being stuck in internment camps, or even shunned by society and not getting work -thus not being able to buy. It's possible, but eventually ,theyll be targeted for extinction. Peace be with you.
 
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Kenny'sID

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For example if parents chipped their child to aid in location of that child if lost or kidnapped, what makes that a spiritual rejection of God any more than a pacemaker inserted into one’s body, or a joint replacement, or any other medical foreign device inserted into one’s body?

The difference is, what you speak of is not the beasts chip, the one with the number of his name or his name. That is if it is a chip at all in the end.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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My question would be, by what justification do you understand the words literally? And not spiritually? I presume you agree that at the least, most of the Revelation is clearly spiritually discerened. Why does the word "mark" necessitate to you a "literal" understanding?

It sounds like you're suggesting that spiritually discerned lessons have no place in practical reality, and perhaps you're using this argument in a way that a lot of people do when they're uncomfortable with a particular teaching.

Of course the Mark has spiritual lessons. I've been saying that all along. Our interaction with the world around us shows what kind of faith we have, just like James suggested when he said, "show your faith through your works".

How can one be prevented from buying/selling, spiritually, based on a "Mark"? It makes no sense in the context. Of course the Mark will be physical. We are physical creatures living in a physical world (for now). There are a few different interpretations for how the original word for "Mark" could be translated, one of them being "agreement". And that was the point of John's use of hte word. The physical shape of the Mark did not mattter so much as what acceptance of the Mark meant on a spiritual level.

Without the Mark we will not be able to buy/sell. Anyone who puts their faith in the material, worldly system will take the Mark. They will show by their actions where their real loyalty is. Anyone who refuses the Mark will not be able to buy/sell. It will be a difficult time for us, but, again, we will show by our actions where our heart really is. Remember what Jesus said about wealth? "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also". When people take the Beast's Mark so that they may continue buying/selling, they show where their heart is.
 
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